It is not fair to compare older horses with AP, e.g. Cigar, John Henry and Forego, but my amateur opinion is that after Secretariat (too many track and world records to mention) you have to put AP in the short list of greatest 3 year olds ever. Reminds me greatly of Seattle Slew, maybe not just blinding speed, but superior speed that he could carry forever, and just like Slew, once AP got the lead, was damn near impossible to track down in the stretch. Probably put Point Given and Spectacular Bid in the discussion as well. Bid still holds the world record in the 1 1/4 if I recall, set 35 years ago. But since they don't run many top 1 1/4 races at Keeneland, I bet AP's track record stands a long time as well.
Horse Racing Experts - where do you rate Pharoah historically?
- Thread starter Tskware
- Start date
Great question - not sure it is one that I personally am ready answer yet - but here are some thoughts on it.
I am not one who believes that speed is the magic bullet - though speed is always an important part of the discussion. Heart is something that cannot always be measured but is known when it is seen. Here are some horses that I believe must be in the discussion:
I think all of the triple crown winners must be included in the discussion - after that...
Alydar
Easy Goer
Sunday Silence
Riva Ridge
Dr. Fager
Man O War
Seabiscuit
Personal Ensign
Gallant Man
Ruffian
Zenyatta
Native Dancer
Spectacular Bid
many more greats...but that could be a discussion starter
I am not one who believes that speed is the magic bullet - though speed is always an important part of the discussion. Heart is something that cannot always be measured but is known when it is seen. Here are some horses that I believe must be in the discussion:
I think all of the triple crown winners must be included in the discussion - after that...
Alydar
Easy Goer
Sunday Silence
Riva Ridge
Dr. Fager
Man O War
Seabiscuit
Personal Ensign
Gallant Man
Ruffian
Zenyatta
Native Dancer
Spectacular Bid
many more greats...but that could be a discussion starter
Without using the Internet does anybody know who beat Man O War? He only lost once. Here is a clue. They had to change the dictionary as a result of it.
I would probably have Secretariat and Spectacular Bid as 1A and 1B on my list. I am not a impressed with the older horses that run as 4, 5, and 6 years old. I also think Spectacular Bid and Secretariat have two records that will never be beat.
Horse Records
1 1/4 mile - 1:57 4/5 by Spectacular Bid at Santa Anita Park Feb 3, 1980
1 1/2 mile - 2:24 00 by Secretariat at Belmont Park June 9, 1973
Secretariat
21 starts
16 First
3 Seconds
1 Third
Spectacular Bid
30 starts
26 First
2 Seconds
1 Third
Horse Records
1 1/4 mile - 1:57 4/5 by Spectacular Bid at Santa Anita Park Feb 3, 1980
1 1/2 mile - 2:24 00 by Secretariat at Belmont Park June 9, 1973
Secretariat
21 starts
16 First
3 Seconds
1 Third
Spectacular Bid
30 starts
26 First
2 Seconds
1 Third
OMG, how bad was Franklin's ride in the Belmont, not sure I could have done worse.
OP, I think Point Given is truly a horse guys horse, personally my favorite horse. He was a monster and what happened to him in the Derby is a real shame. I've met Gary Stevens and he told me Point Given was flat out the best horse he's ever ridden and that he cost him the Triple Crown letting him go too early to chase that blistering pace in the 2001 derby. Still the only horse ever to win 4 million dollar races in a row. That freaking tendon injury cost him not only winning the Breeders Cup that year but going down in history as one of the best ever. The video is of Gary talking about some of the horses he's ridden and visiting them at Stud, he sees Point Given at 1:30 mark and becomes emotional, kind of sad really. Guess Baffert could tell you what he thought about PG vs AP but not sure he'd answer that publicly honestly.
I was kind of thinking he is right alongside of a horse like Seattle Slew. Awesome horse, won almost everything he raced in and dominated the sport. He will be as highly regarded at the stud farm if his offspring produce and he will be in a barn somewhere with people taking pictures of him for the rest of his life.
I agree that some of these horses were amazing that are probably not in this discussion due to the nature of this sport. I mean you basically have to win the Derby and probably the Triple Crown to even be in consideration. Hansel was a beast too, but he didn't win the Derby. What if Sunday Silence and Easy Goer weren't in the same year? What if Barbaro had not gone down in the Preakness? What about Holy Bull? Some great horses that didn't win the Triple Crown and will eventually be forgotten as time goes by.
He’s certainly one of the greatest of the modern era. Some of his TC times were "average", but his speed figures improved with each race. His 120 Beyer in Classic is extraordinary for a 3yo. His competition was relatively weak no question, but I think he had the goods to step up his game. Too bad Beholder and Liam's Map weren't in there, I don't think AP was losing to anyone last weekend and that would have really solidified his ability. The most impressive stat for me, and one that will boost his stallion stock is that his 8 career GI wins came at 8 different racetracks in 6 different states. He is a very smart, durable and professional horse.
It’s almost preposterous to compare thoroughbreds of the modern era to the likes of Man O’ War, War Admiral and Citation. It’s just not the same game, and in the view of many, not the same breed.
It’s almost preposterous to compare thoroughbreds of the modern era to the likes of Man O’ War, War Admiral and Citation. It’s just not the same game, and in the view of many, not the same breed.
3yo seasons only:
Secretariat
Slew
Affirmed
AP Indy
Pharoah
Bid
Ruffian--Begins the conversation for GFMOAT
Sunday Silence*
Point Given
Alysheba
*I loved Easy Goer, in fact he's my avatar on the twitter, but I can't put him up because he never won outside of NY.
Secretariat
Slew
Affirmed
AP Indy
Pharoah
Bid
Ruffian--Begins the conversation for GFMOAT
Sunday Silence*
Point Given
Alysheba
*I loved Easy Goer, in fact he's my avatar on the twitter, but I can't put him up because he never won outside of NY.
Good list. Off the top of my head, I'd add Holy Bull and maybe even Rachel Alexandra.
Without a doubt!
Couple degenerates I know would be cussing me out right now.. [laughing]Bull catches a fast track, and he wins the Derby hands down.
AP is probably the best horse I've seen in real time. Born in 74 so I really didn't see any of those old greats in real time, only replays.
Got it done on the track. Thing is, think that had he been pushed there was a lot more there too. Like that last race when we finally got to see him set down and really run a bit (his loss at teh Spa he wasn't right from all the shipping imo). I got goosebumps just watching his "action" during that stretch drive. Horse was a freak in terms of talent.
Also, it counts for me that some long time, well respected, horse racing people said that he was the best they had seen in the mornings. Yes, that is just mornings, but there were some people I really respect were as in awe of him as any horse before him.
Got it done on the track. Thing is, think that had he been pushed there was a lot more there too. Like that last race when we finally got to see him set down and really run a bit (his loss at teh Spa he wasn't right from all the shipping imo). I got goosebumps just watching his "action" during that stretch drive. Horse was a freak in terms of talent.
Also, it counts for me that some long time, well respected, horse racing people said that he was the best they had seen in the mornings. Yes, that is just mornings, but there were some people I really respect were as in awe of him as any horse before him.
It is a shame that the Classic field especially turned up relatively weak, but all you can do is beat the horses that they put in the gate with you. Would have been interesting to see AP run against the likes of Beholder, not to mention the really outstanding older horses that have won the Classic, like Cigar and Zenyatta. As you say, beating AP this past weekend who was obviously at the top of his game and ran a track record would have been a tall order for any horse.
I'd add Go For Wand to the long list above. She was something else. And made me cry.
Pet peeve from the weekend: Noting that AP was the first Triple Crown winner to win the Breeder's Cup Classic. Yeah? Well no crap.
Pet peeve from the weekend: Noting that AP was the first Triple Crown winner to win the Breeder's Cup Classic. Yeah? Well no crap.
I think the consensus is that Man o' War, Secretariat and Citation are the 3 greatest ever. After that it bunches up, AP probably deserves inclusion in that list. Seems like he benefited from weak competition - but to be honest, my guess is several others on this imaginary list did too. So fair is fair.
Still amazing how many great horses we had in the 70s......
Still amazing how many great horses we had in the 70s......
We all cried that day, Kel..
Me and a few cats went out to Keeneland for the handful of live races on closing day, and then for the simo of the BC from Belmont. When she went down, you could've heard a mouse fart across the room. I'm not going to rehash what the filly went through, or what we saw, but it took me a long *** time to get over that. I only watched the video of Ruffian's last race once, but when she broke it happened on the backside away from the masses gathered there for that match race. That happened in '75, and that's also why they still dont card those goddamn events.
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I was surprised to read about Secretariat's steroid use -- alleged steroid use -- which would make his accomplishments much less impressive. But my favorite horse from that era was Buckpasser. He missed the Spring races but cleaned up everything else. Including staggering handicap races. Horses raced much longer then and Buckpasser took on all comers. His success in the barn later suggests that there was no "shrinkage" due to steroid use.
Greatest stretch run in history if Secretariat's Belmont is discounted for steroids:
American Pharaoh is a completely different kind of horse. A front runner with fantastic stamina. But is he for real or is he a ginned up marquee star? After all, horse racing badly needs a jolt of interest. If he's for real then, yes, he's in the top rank with half a dozen others.
Greatest stretch run in history if Secretariat's Belmont is discounted for steroids:
American Pharaoh is a completely different kind of horse. A front runner with fantastic stamina. But is he for real or is he a ginned up marquee star? After all, horse racing badly needs a jolt of interest. If he's for real then, yes, he's in the top rank with half a dozen others.
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I think Ruffian was one of the best ever. Very underrated because of her short career. I believe she ran in 9 races before breaking down and she was in the lead at every single pole in every single race. That is extremely impressive. Plus, she was one that you could tell had that heart and desire to win. She was special, IMO.
Afleet Alex has to be mentioned. Terrible Derby trip and weaved to a near win anyway. Tripped and almost fell in the Preakness and destroyed the field, and he crushed the Belmont Field also. Great horse.
One of my favorites and a nice stallion as well. His jockey admittedly cost him the KY Derby by getting way too close to a suicide pace. Still nearly pulled it off. Only knock on him is that, like Smarty Jones, he never raced after the Belmont.
Barbaro looked like the total package as well. Freaky good in his short career.
Amen. I know you know, but for those that don't, Alydar was Easy Goer's sire.
In fact, and since Moe brought him up, Buckpasser was the sire of Relaxing, who was Easy Goer's dam. Outside of AP Indy, that's about as good as it gets..imo.
Expand on that. I've always felt that thoroughbreds could use an influx of genes since the pool was so tiny to begin with.
I will go to my grave believing that Easy Goer wins the TC if not for Pat Day. Not arguing that Day was a HOF rider - but he mis-handled EG in the Derby and in the Preakness. In the Belmont Shug told Day to let him go and he crushes the field. If they had let him run like that in all three we would have 13 TC winners.
Not sure it still holds up - but Easy Goer ran the fastest mile ever by a 3 year old on dirt in his run up to the Derby.
He was a beast.
Yep...he smoked everybody in the Gotham and the Wood. Just like with Holy Bull, Easy Goer catches a fast track, he runs off. Instead, he gets that same goo/paste he had to tackle in the BC Juvy at CD the year before, with the same results. Pat Day will tell you today he cost him the Preakness, and I won't argue with him. I was so gd pissed he got beat, I cried out of pure frustration.
Your opinion: '89 Preakness top-5 stretch duel of all time?
Your opinion: '89 Preakness top-5 stretch duel of all time?
Sham, talk about all time rotten luck! Didn't he have the second best Derby time ever?
Agreed, was looking forward to watching his career....
Yep...he smoked everybody in the Gotham and the Wood. Just like with Holy Bull, Easy Goer catches a fast track, he runs off. Instead, he gets that same goo/paste he had to tackle in the BC Juvy at CD the year before, with the same results. Pat Day will tell you today he cost him the Preakness, and I won't argue with him. I was so gd pissed he got beat, I cried out of pure frustration.
Your opinion: '89 Preakness top-5 stretch duel of all time?
Absolutely - not trying to take anything away from Sunday Silence - but he should have been Sham to EG's Secretariet...
I always thought Alysheba was one of the great horses as well but maybe he ran in too many races. I think Alysheba just happened to be one of the great horses during a time in which there were a lot of great horses competing on a regular basis. Consider this, Alysheba raced against Bet Twice 9 times. When in the modern era have we had two great horses race against each other 9 times? I don't know that Alysheba was one of the 10 greatest horses of alltime, but I think if the horse would of maybe ran a few less races he would of won more consistently.
The foundation of the business has shifted from sport to sales. The market wants fast, precocious 2-year-olds who will win early and back up their pedigree as quickly as possible to minimize the risk and overhead. Horses are running faster now but racing far less frequently and at shorter distances. They are also being retired to stud/broodmare duty much earlier in their careers, most before they ever sniff their prime.
Many think the focus on speed over stamina has been detrimental to the soundness of modern TBs. And yes, bloodlines are being diluted by overbreeding stallions. Some also feel the prevalence of medication like Lasix has adverse genetic effects.
That's the difference between now, and 30 odd years ago...they just dont breed'em like they used to.
Alysheba raced three years: 26 Starts: 11 - 8 - 2 and won almost 7 million in purses. That's really just an average of one start a month, but with this type of horse, you know there's some time for a breather, and Van Berg gave his main horse nothing more than he could handle.
I will say this...After his stretch run in the Derby, there was no turning back for me and this game. I was all in. Clipping heels with Bet twice, he gathered himself, ears went back, Chris got into him with that right handed rat-tat-tat-tat whip and got him on up. That's a top-10 performance in my book. We'll leave out the disaster a spill in that part of the Derby would've caused.
Side note: 27 years ago today, Alysheba won his Breeders' Cup Classic.
Yep...he smoked everybody in the Gotham and the Wood. Just like with Holy Bull, Easy Goer catches a fast track, he runs off. Instead, he gets that same goo/paste he had to tackle in the BC Juvy at CD the year before, with the same results. Pat Day will tell you today he cost him the Preakness, and I won't argue with him. I was so gd pissed he got beat, I cried out of pure frustration.
Your opinion: '89 Preakness top-5 stretch duel of all time?
I was Team EG too, and he probably had more raw talent, but the fact that SS was racing in the same conditions and holds the 3-1 edge head-to-head, you gotta go SS > EG...at least for that year. And not sure how there will ever be a better stretch run than that Preakness. Those cats were eyeball to eyeball from the 1/4 pole to the finish.
Only other that comes to mind is Tiznow in the 2001 Classic. McCarron said he'd never heard, or felt, a horse under him take a deeper breath than he did that day, and he was giving it all he had.
God I love this game.
God I love this game.
The Bid is incorrectly, imo, diminished for losing the Belmont right after he had a pin stuck in his hoof the morning of the race. Hoof wound up infected & the infection had to be drilled out. Could have still impacted his loss to 4 yr old Affirmed.