Horse Racing Experts - where do you rate Pharoah historically?

[Teachable Moe]

The foundation of the business has shifted from sport to sales. The market wants fast, precocious 2-year-olds who will win early and back up their pedigree as quickly as possible to minimize the risk and overhead. Horses are running faster now but racing far less frequently and at shorter distances. They are also being retired to stud/broodmare duty much earlier in their careers, most before they ever sniff their prime.

Many think the focus on speed over stamina has been detrimental to the soundness of modern TBs. And yes, bloodlines are being diluted by overbreeding stallions. Some also feel the prevalence of medication like Lasix has adverse genetic effects.

Thanks for your answer. (I haven't kept up with the sport.)

 

[HossCat73_rivals]

The foundation of the business has shifted from sport to sales. The market wants fast, precocious 2-year-olds who will win early and back up their pedigree as quickly as possible to minimize the risk and overhead. Horses are running faster now but racing far less frequently and at shorter distances. They are also being retired to stud/broodmare duty much earlier in their careers, most before they ever sniff their prime.

Many think the focus on speed over stamina has been detrimental to the soundness of modern TBs. And yes, bloodlines are being diluted by overbreeding stallions. Some also feel the prevalence of medication like Lasix has adverse genetic effects.

Great Post...[thumb2]


Horse racing wasn't exempt from the microwave society either. Increasing number of 2yo in training sales, ped/steroids, and as you noted, the increased amount of speed instead of stamina driven sires, took it's toll. For those types of offspring, people were looking more toward the Euro sire, and breeding influences. Recently though, that seems to be trending back towards this side of the pond. Horses are starting to return for their 4 and 5 year old seasons. Chrome will be back, Shared Belief is back at Golden Gate, Dortmund just won, Tonalist who they couldn't get a stud fee set will more than likely be back next year as well, and including a start in the Cigar Mile later on this month at Aqu..Breeding wise, one good example is Empire Maker coming back from Japan, and will stand out at Gainesway this year. He arrived back on the 22nd.

 

[HossCat73_rivals]

Back to Pharoah though, ESPN quoting a source saying his stud fee will be $200K for next year. Seems kinda quick, but no guarantees listed, and I understood they weren't going to test for fertility, or even give him a dry run in the shed until next month.

Pioneerof the Nile will stand for $125,000 up from $60 which is no surprise. That is still a helluva bargain for who is obviously a proven sire, and will be a boon for Winstar along with further successes from Super Saver, and Tiznow.

 

[College#19]

That's the difference between now, and 30 odd years ago...they just dont breed'em like they used to.

Alysheba raced three years: 26 Starts: 11 - 8 - 2 and won almost 7 million in purses. That's really just an average of one start a month, but with this type of horse, you know there's some time for a breather, and Van Berg gave his main horse nothing more than he could handle.

I will say this...After his stretch run in the Derby, there was no turning back for me and this game. I was all in. Clipping heels with Bet twice, he gathered himself, ears went back, Chris got into him with that right handed rat-tat-tat-tat whip and got him on up. That's a top-10 performance in my book. We'll leave out the disaster a spill in that part of the Derby would've caused.

Side note: 27 years ago today, Alysheba won his Breeders' Cup Classic.

I still think the fact Alysheba and Bet Twice raced against each other 9 times is an amazing stat. Alysheba won 5 of the races, Bet Twice won 2 of them, and both were beaten by other horses in the other two. I remember when Bet Twice raced at Keeneland as a 4 year old. I was there that day. It was one of the great rivalries in horse racing, maybe the greatest, considering how many times they raced against each other on the big stage.

 

[BlueKel_rivals210266]

$200K per live foal. Expected to breed with 200 mares per year - so approximately $40M/year in stud fees. And people wonder why he isn't going to race anymore. Ha.

 

[TexasTimCat]

I was Team EG too, and he probably had more raw talent, but the fact that SS was racing in the same conditions and holds the 3-1 edge head-to-head, you gotta go SS > EG...at least for that year. And not sure how there will ever be a better stretch run than that Preakness. Those cats were eyeball to eyeball from the 1/4 pole to the finish.

i went out and watched that stretch run again - if you look at the last furlong EG literally had his head turned looking SS in the face as they were approaching the wire...

 

[HossCat73_rivals]

^That is the ONLY wee bit of credit I will give that son of a *****. All else was failing, so he pulled on the right reign hoping EG would see him and take back off. Well, he saw him, and generally they'll change leads and find their late groove, but not when that run has already been wasted.

For as bad a race as Day rode, P Val's was just the opposite. He let Day literally win the race for him.


edit--Was it the Chinese letter version of the race? [laughing]

 

[WayneDougan_rivals170043]

The foundation of the business has shifted from sport to sales. The market wants fast, precocious 2-year-olds who will win early and back up their pedigree as quickly as possible to minimize the risk and overhead. Horses are running faster now but racing far less frequently and at shorter distances. They are also being retired to stud/broodmare duty much earlier in their careers, most before they ever sniff their prime.

Many think the focus on speed over stamina has been detrimental to the soundness of modern TBs. And yes, bloodlines are being diluted by overbreeding stallions. Some also feel the prevalence of medication like Lasix has adverse genetic effects.

It's pretty obvious, but AP hanging it up is like Lebron James retiring after his rookie year. The industry needs to figure out how to keep its stars in the game for at least a couple years.

 

[vhcat70]

Back to Pharoah though, ESPN quoting a source saying his stud fee will be $200K for next year. Seems kinda quick, but no guarantees listed,

How do you know he'll be quick?

 

[HossCat73_rivals]

How do you know he'll be quick?

I don't know how quick he'll be, but if you've seen a horse being covered, it's not a full length porn.
The "quickness" I referred to is announcing his stud fee without fertility tests and giving him a few runs with test mares. For you, and those that arent familiar with that term, they're typically quarter horse mares that he'll lay into to make sure the plumbing works.


edit--the guarantees typically consist of:

1) Live foal
and/or
2) Foal stands and nurses

There are instances where breeders put up their money with neither on the table, and crap out. That's a no guarantee. Rare circumstances with a high profile stallion--especially a freshman sire--but not unheard of after a few years and a high fee.

 

[ThePhoenix_rivals211191]

I will go to my grave believing that Easy Goer wins the TC if not for Pat Day. Not arguing that Day was a HOF rider - but he mis-handled EG in the Derby and in the Preakness. In the Belmont Shug told Day to let him go and he crushes the field. If they had let him run like that in all three we would have 13 TC winners.

Not sure it still holds up - but Easy Goer ran the fastest mile ever by a 3 year old on dirt in his run up to the Derby.

He was a beast.

I'm biased the other way. Sunday Silence is my #1 favorite horse of all time, so I'm always in vehement objection to this notion that some have that Easy Goer was the better horse. EG was a beast, but to me that totally diminishes the greatness of Sunday Silence.

The bottom line is Sunday beat him 3 of 4. Only race EG beat him was on his home track (and EG was unbeatable at Belmont), at a distance he was better suited for. They looked each other in the eye the entire stretch of the Preakness and Sunday beat him. I'm of the opinion that EG had a little more "raw talent" than Sunday, but Sunday had a bit more heart and a bit more of that innate knowing what it takes to win.

Not to mention, that Sunday then became one of the most influential stallions of all time, so he clearly passed on some great traits.

Easy Goer was a beast ... but you're out of your mind if you don't think Sunday Silence was every bit a beast himself.

 

[HossCat73_rivals]

Not to mention, that Sunday then became one of the most influential stallions of all time, so he clearly passed on some great traits.

Albeit in Japan. Hancock sold him to their interests after the Classic..I will edit to say he was the most prolific sire that country will ever see in their breeding operations. His influence will be around there for a long time.

Easy Goer died at 8, and his only major stakes winners off the top of my head were the filly My Flag--out of Personal Ensign--and Will's Way.

He was buried at Claiborne beside Buckpasser, Secretariet and Bold Ruler.

 

[rabidcatfan]

He doesn't crack the top 5 as far as I'm concerned -

1. Secretariat - this should never be questioned by anyone.
2. Seattle Slew
3. Affirmed
4. Man O ' War
5. Spectacular Bid

I'd even rank Seabiscuit ahead of Pharoah.

 

[TexasTimCat]

I'm biased the other way. Sunday Silence is my #1 favorite horse of all time, so I'm always in vehement objection to this notion that some have that Easy Goer was the better horse. EG was a beast, but to me that totally diminishes the greatness of Sunday Silence.

The bottom line is Sunday beat him 3 of 4. Only race EG beat him was on his home track (and EG was unbeatable at Belmont), at a distance he was better suited for. They looked each other in the eye the entire stretch of the Preakness and Sunday beat him. I'm of the opinion that EG had a little more "raw talent" than Sunday, but Sunday had a bit more heart and a bit more of that innate knowing what it takes to win.

Not to mention, that Sunday then became one of the most influential stallions of all time, so he clearly passed on some great traits.

Easy Goer was a beast ... but you're out of your mind if you don't think Sunday Silence was every bit a beast himself.

Great post - and yes we will agree to disagree. And I may be a bit out of my mind but that should be a separate thread.

But I in no way intend to lessen SS greatness - loved the horse - just did not love the spot. In any other year I would have been pulling for him to take the TC.

I had him in my original list of greats above.

 

[HossCat73_rivals]

^Sharp post, Tim, and so did I..SS took his track wherever he ran where as EG unfortunately did not.

 

[Tskware]

He doesn't crack the top 5 as far as I'm concerned -

1. Secretariat - this should never be questioned by anyone.
2. Seattle Slew
3. Affirmed
4. Man O ' War
5. Spectacular Bid

I'd even rank Seabiscuit ahead of Pharoah.

I won't argue with you because I am very much an amateur fan, but even accepting your list, and placing AP just after that group would still make him the best of the last 35 years or so, still a hell of a horse.

I suppose the posters in this thread saw the LHL article that predicted Keeneland will get the BC back in five years or so, ticket revenue was double what it was in Santa Anita.