How Young’s practice presence could pay off for offensive tackle, Kentucky
- Thread starter wildcatman26
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I am in the minority that believes Landon Young should redshirt in 2016 and be developed as a 4-year tackle starter in 2017-20. Someone will say Young won't stay at Kentucky for 4 years. I have seen that argument here every time fans want a true freshman to play. We heard it about Elam. We even heard it about Hatcher and Asafo Adjei. Lots of people here insisted they would leave early for the NFL. But facts are facts. In the history of Kentucky football, only 4 players have left early and then made an NFL roster the following year. With odds that long, it is foolish to make developmental decisions on every potentially talented freshman out of fear that they might leave early. Our coaches are paid to win, but have had 3 consecutive disappointing seasons in 2013-15. So they will feel lots of pressure to use Young as a true freshman in 2016. But it isn't just a question of who looks good in 4 weeks of practice in August. A year ago, true freshman GAA seemed to win the starting right tackle job in April and August. GAA started the 1st 3 games, then succumbed to lack of experience and sat for most of the year while Kyle Meadows played. Fans see the 5 stars, want immediate fixes, and overwhelmingly believe that Young should play in 2016. But I believe that patience is a virtue, and that Young could have a much more impactful career at Kentucky if developed as a 5 year player. That's why I will be in the minority here. I would leave the 2016 tackle responsibilities to Tate Leavitt, a spring participant signed out of juco specifically for this purpose, and to Meadows and Cole Mosier who are 2 of the most improved players on our team. I am not necessarily opposed to using true freshmen. For instance, I would play Kash Daniel in 2016. But Daniel is participating in spring practice, and true freshman linebackers have a little bit easier path to contribute early. Dakota Hotzclaw, another spring participant, might play. Obviously Grant McKinniss will punt. But I would redshirt most of the other true freshmen. Developing players is not about immediate impact, which is usually a pipe dream for freshmen linemen. Developing players is about making them the best student athlete they can be by using their 4 years of college eligibility wisely. This is a test for our coaching staff, but my point will take time to prove.
Mike Pfeiffer, Warren Bryant, Jonathon Liening, Antonio Hall.
I'd like that to be the case, but it's too early imo to make that call. See what he & the guys in front of him do in pre-season & the first few games, including possible injuries. How does anyone know he's not the clear first choice by then?
While I agree with your premise, as others have said, if he's the best option, he plays this year. Now, if he is good but not quite as good as expected, he likely won't be the best option this fall, so he will RS anyway.
I think most would argue that IF Landon improves as much as expected, he will likely be gone after his 4th year, whether that is his TR Sr or RS Jr season.
Regardless of what they do in practice this coming August, Landon Young's career at Kentucky would be helped by a redshirt. I would just remind you what happened to GAA last year. And although most people believe Landon is more ready than GAA, that isn't necessarily true. GAA played against Ohio high school competition, then participated in spring practice at Kentucky before his freshman season. People's impressions are mainly based on Young's 5 stars at this point. The best, most fundamentally sound offensive tackles I have seen at Kentucky all got their redshirts, including Warren Bryant, Mike Pfeiffer, Jonathon Liening. All of those guys were similar physically to Young, but all of them played against stronger competition in high school.
I would love for all our linemen (offense or defense) to be able to RS but it is unlikely that we will be able to recruit on par with Bama.
If Young is the best option, then play him. Unfortunately he may be in the 2-deep by default which may eliminate the possibility of a RS. We are pretty deep along the interior line but not so deep at OT.
If Young is the best option, then play him. Unfortunately he may be in the 2-deep by default which may eliminate the possibility of a RS. We are pretty deep along the interior line but not so deep at OT.
It doesn't matter what most people would argue, if their argument is demonstrably incorrect. When they were freshmen, everyone around here said Darrian Miller and Matt Elam would leave early for the NFL. LOL! You can't make player development decisions for true freshmen out of fear that they might leave early. The fact is, only 4 Kentucky football players have ever made an NFL roster a year after leaving Kentucky early. These decisions must assume the player will stay around, because almost all do. It must be based on what will make him the best student athlete he can be. And for a lineman, that almost always means a redshirt.
Jonas Liening was not as mobile, Antonio Hall was not as long, Bryant's playing weight is 30 pounds lighter. As for Pfeifer, that's probably the best comparison. Nice job.
This is a stale argument. If he is the best guy he should play. That is the way modern college football works in Tuscaloosa, Athens, Tallahassee, Knoxville and Columbus. No one can redshirt guys who are among the best in the country. Great players want to play and move on. We have a men's basketball coach who has pushed this position for years. You redshirt guys who are not ready to play or could not break into the 2 deep.
I too am in the camp that all linemen should red shirt. That being said Young's situation this fall will be determined thusly:
1) If he's not among the 3 best tackles on the team he will redshirt.
2) If he is among the 3 best tackles on the team then he will likely play.
3) If he is one of the 2 best tackles on the team then he will most certainly play.
1) If he's not among the 3 best tackles on the team he will redshirt.
2) If he is among the 3 best tackles on the team then he will likely play.
3) If he is one of the 2 best tackles on the team then he will most certainly play.
Granted, Kentucky has never had another tackle with precisely the same identical body measurements and limb lengths as Landon Young. But you are missing the point. You don't have to be 6-7 to be an all-pro NFL tackle. Kentucky has had other large, talented, highly regarded tackles before. Young has never played in a college game before, so your evaluations of his talent compared to actual college players still needs to be validated at this level. Lots of players get high prospect ratings and look good on paper. Based on high school performances and evaluations, everyone thought Antonio Hall and Darrian Miller were elite college prospects, just like everyone thinks Young is an elite prospect. Miller had a scholarship offer from Alabama, Hall had an offer from Ohio State. Hall was the top ranked high school tackle prospect in the entire country.
I agree, you have accurately outlined what will happen with Landon Young this fall. I also agree with you that all college linemen should redshirt. There is no question in my mind that Stoops possesses the recruiting skills of a successful SEC coach. He must still prove that his staff can develop players at all positions like a successful SEC staff develops players, although the stories of Melvin Lewis, Josh Forrest, and CJ Johnson are very persuasive on the defensive side.
Not missing your point. I see what I see and base my opinion on that. Landon is the best UK lineman commit I've seen since Warford and should have good career as long as he stays relatively healthy. However, it definitely helps to have that prototypical size and mobility on the outside. It isn't always necessary (I.e. Garry Williams), but it helps.
It's a good argument and the staff may well start the year off with that as a plan, but the problem is we don't have much depth at tackle. I think Mosier is mostly being looked at for short yardage situations, so assuming Leavitt wins one of the tackle spots and Meadowns nails down the other who spells them if they get banged up? If we have a shot at a good year you can't leave a talent like that on the bench and put in someone with much lesser skill just to save him for another year.
OTOH Jackson looks like a sure redshirt and if Young was a guard or center he would be redshirted as well.
IMO this is spot on. In an ideal world, all t-FR OLs should redshirt but sometimes that is just not the case, especially in "building/rebuilding" situations. You gotta go with your best player regardless of class. There are always more good players in the future but sometimes the future is now. JMO, but this staff needs to win now and ANY t-FR that can help them get that 6th win should play.
Peace
Those are not good comparisons, Elam was big when he arrived, was in awful condition and had terrible fundamentals and according Rivals, who looks like they were closer, was a 3*. GAA is a guard who was forced to play OT. Lots of true frosh OTs start, in the SEC. Bama's last 2 LT all started as true frosh at LT. Laremy Tunsil started as a true frosh at OM. Clemson's starting LT in 15 was a true frosh. Those guys have lots in common, all were 5* OT recruits, all started their first game at LT and all have left after 3 years.
This^^^
Young is a five star Otackle on a team with very questionable returning talent at that position and non existent depth.
Even the BEST teams in the country play talents like Young as true freshmen. We need to play our best players. If that's him then he should play.
And after watching Young at the Army AA game against what was billed as a historically good Dline, I really don't have any doubt that he is a step up in not teachable talent.
I do agree every OL & DL guy would benefit from a RS, and that's why I prefaced it with that. OTOH, with camps, off-season training at the HS level, etc, there are more and more true FR who come in as better players than others on the roster competing for the same spots.
As a coach, isn't your job to put the best team possible on the field? How do you keep kids competing if they know they are not going to win since they are freshman?
Young will definitely play. I don't think he starts right away, but he will take over one of the tackle spots at some point this year.
As if somehow I don't think would be helped by an RS. But will we be better in 2016 if LY plays? Were we better in 2015 because GAA played? I'd hazard yes.
I agree Landon Young is the best Kentucky offensive lineman commitment since Warford. Warford signed with Kentucky in 2009. But Warford is a guard, and his freshman year was wasted while he mostly sat on the sideline as a true freshman. Thereafter, Warford was named 2nd team all SEC as a sophomore, junior, and senior. Garry Williams was a natural guard playing out of position. I'm sure all of us agree that it helps to have great size and talent. I was simply pointing out that notable offensive tackles with size and talent have played at Kentucky before. Your earlier statement suggested that Young is the best and most talented offensive tackle ever signed by Kentucky. But Antonio Hall was the consensus #1 offensive tackle prospect in the country. It's probably fair to say Young is the most famous offensive tackle Kentucky has signed since Hall. Pfeiffer and Liening came along before for-profit internet websites and high school player rankings, but both were similar to Young in size, headlines, and talent. Since you seemed to miss that point, I reiterated it. I never suggested that you weren't basing your statements on your own perceptions. LOL!
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All coaching staffs make good decisions and bad decisions. The problem with being the man with the whistle and the big contract is that you don't know how your decisions will turn out. You just have to balance many factors, take your best shots, and learn from their consequences. These coaches want to win. Now. Which I understand, because they get hammered over and over by media and fans. But their job is to build a program that wins EVERY year, not just burning redshirts. That means optimal player development. And that usually means more redshirts. I doubt GAA's actual 2015 contributions came close to what he could have contributed to our 2019 team as a 5th year senior. In 2015, GAA started 3 games, playing out of position in September, then sat for most of the rest of the season. I think GAA will become an impact starting guard this year. He should have redshirted last year, but Meadows missed some time in August and early September with headaches. Krok's and Richardson's departures meant our coaches didn't have a better plan in place. Let's revisit this in 2018 and see if you agree then that another season of GAA as a starting guard would be huge. Because that's what we are talking about here. The argument that a small contribution justifies using a true freshman always rings with some fans, but it cannot be put in proper context until you see what we will miss by not having GAA in 2019.
You sure know how to twist words. I clearly stated, "I can't remember the last time UK had a lineman of his size and mobility, maybe never." I never said he was the best and most talented ever signed. When someone says "maybe", that leaves some wiggle room for being mistaken. UK may have had some better players, but very few could match his combined size, strength, and athleticism. Not sure why we are having this argument. Seems pretty petty that it was started. Anyway, better luck next time.
My take on redshirts is you get the same number of years out of any player whether you redshirt them or not. Ther is one reason to redshirt IMO and that's to give them time to physically develop if needed. But if they are already physically ready then it's just a simple matter of whether they are the best on week one at their position or not. If so they will develop more by playing than by red shirting and not getting game action.
You only build more depth red shirting if the guys in front of them are better than they are coming in, If not you're just not building depth you're just putting off game development for the more talented player. I think you'll see George grow so much this year, partly because of the position change but more so because he learned under fire last year and he already knows what to expect but will have the confidence that comes with being a sophomore. If he had redshirted he would have still gone through this year battling confidence IMO.
Again all of this only if they are physically ready to go.
You only build more depth red shirting if the guys in front of them are better than they are coming in, If not you're just not building depth you're just putting off game development for the more talented player. I think you'll see George grow so much this year, partly because of the position change but more so because he learned under fire last year and he already knows what to expect but will have the confidence that comes with being a sophomore. If he had redshirted he would have still gone through this year battling confidence IMO.
Again all of this only if they are physically ready to go.
Disagree...if Landon Young redshirts and is as good as advertised he only plays two years. The same as it would have been with RC
Warren was the one that I most remembered, him on the offense and Still on the defense. Hall was a hoss but he let the change of head coach bother him too much in his senior year. I thought he was going to the next level easy.
In all honesty, if he's top 4 by end of fall camp, he probably plays because of potential. He could be sparingly used the first 4 games, play a bit 5 and 6 and be starting down the stretch. Some guys aren't on the same schedule as others... tunsil etc. But I think he's starting by weak 4 personally
I like Blue Decade's football knowledge and he is in Lexington, but while I agree that a Redshirt is usually desirable, especially for OL, I lean the other way in this case IF he can help us in any way. First of all WINS are very important this year, the coaches not only want them they really need them, if he can give us ONE win it could mean the difference in going bowling and not------a HUGE difference in recruits perception, justified or not. It is quite possible that could land us another FIVE STAR down the road------in fact, if he can start and not struggle too much, it could land us Wills next year
This is not your ordinary high school recruit, not only did he commit BEFORE he his sophomore year in high school, June 14 2013, he committed before his first practice as a sophomore------maybe more surprising is that this staff recognized his potential that early to offer him then------not that surprising in light of their subsequent early offers though And he has lived up to all his expectations, a FIVE STAR and rated among the best in the nation at any position, I'm not sure Warford is in the comparison although he turned out to be great, he was a 5.6 coming out of high school. Wasn't Warford the rookie of the year in the NFL or some such honor, no way he needed to come back for another year, whatever we got his freshman year was a bonus. And I can see the argument above that AA might actually be better next year because he did get playing time this year against the best even if he didn't look great at times.
I think there is little chance he is here for four years, let alone five, (although Florida had a twin five star OL in ten that was a fifth year-----injuries I think------wasn't he matched up against our 265# WALKON DT some that game------LOL), so if he can help us this year don't waste it, even if he doesn't start. Plus if he does start and progresses and goes pro early it shows other prospects they can do that at UK also, Wills could be watching closely, and even if he doesn't look great most players think they can do better------and they should. Wills also got his five star earlier in the process.
I think wins are VITAL this year, a bowl game would make a lot of difference in recruiting.
This is not your ordinary high school recruit, not only did he commit BEFORE he his sophomore year in high school, June 14 2013, he committed before his first practice as a sophomore------maybe more surprising is that this staff recognized his potential that early to offer him then------not that surprising in light of their subsequent early offers though And he has lived up to all his expectations, a FIVE STAR and rated among the best in the nation at any position, I'm not sure Warford is in the comparison although he turned out to be great, he was a 5.6 coming out of high school. Wasn't Warford the rookie of the year in the NFL or some such honor, no way he needed to come back for another year, whatever we got his freshman year was a bonus. And I can see the argument above that AA might actually be better next year because he did get playing time this year against the best even if he didn't look great at times.
I think there is little chance he is here for four years, let alone five, (although Florida had a twin five star OL in ten that was a fifth year-----injuries I think------wasn't he matched up against our 265# WALKON DT some that game------LOL), so if he can help us this year don't waste it, even if he doesn't start. Plus if he does start and progresses and goes pro early it shows other prospects they can do that at UK also, Wills could be watching closely, and even if he doesn't look great most players think they can do better------and they should. Wills also got his five star earlier in the process.
I think wins are VITAL this year, a bowl game would make a lot of difference in recruiting.
By the way, who are the four UK players that left early? JMO but I see no great advantage to the team if a player redshirting doesn't stay for his fifth year. Below is a list of UK's players drafted since Couch------and there weren't too many early draft entries until not too long before he was drafted, they didn't always throw obscene amounts of money at draft choices. On the other hand I don't think many players redshirted either.
How many of those players would have gained a lot by being in college another year? Not sure if there are any, of course some lower rated players might have had a chance at a career IF they had stayed for five years, and we have some that made rosters like that------but not FIVE STARS. How many on this list stayed at UK for five years, I know Woodson, Burton, and Tamme (Woodson didn't dedicate for three years, Burton and Tamme late five stars) did but not sure of any others, yeah, Lindley but he was a FIVE POINT ONE I believe, and he not only redshirted but he also grayshirted IIRC. Pretty sure no one left before four years after Cobb. I would say the only four you said left early, three years, Jarmon (not by choice and a fifth year (?) but wasn't he a two star, long way from a five star), Robertson, maybe not but the #4 overall draft pick and if he stayed four he wasn't smart about it, Robertson and Couch All World as recruits, and Couch, three years and a no brainer, $51,000,000 contract?? Could Williamson or Dupree have had a fifth year if they wanted, too hard to look up on here with the new format so I am guessing on some of this stuff, if one of the two LBs could have stayed you might have left Jarmon off your list, but neither made a mistake in leaving IMO, Dupree a first round pick.
NO PICKS in 06 AND 07-------PROBATION.
1999 1 1 1 Tim Couch Quarterback Cleveland Browns —
4 3 98 Craig Yeast Wide Receiver Cincinnati Bengals —
2000 5 28 157 James Whalen Tight End Tampa Bay Buccaneers –
2001 3 7 69 Eric Kelly Defensive Back Minnesota Vikings —
7 33 233 Marlon McCree Defensive Back Jacksonville Jaguars —
7 36 236 Quentin McCord Wide Receiver Atlanta Falcons —
2002 3 33 98 Dennis Johnson Defensive End Arizona Cardinals –
2003 1 4 4 Dewayne Robertson Defensive Tackle New York Jets —
4 2 99 Artose Pinner Running Back Detroit Lions —
2004 7 43 244 Derek Abney Wide Receiver Baltimore Ravens –
2005 3 28 92 Vincent Burns Defensive End Indianapolis Colts –
2006 No selections
2007 No selections
2008 4 28 127 Jacob Tamme Tight End Indianapolis Colts —
4 29 128 Keenan Burton Wide Receiver St. Louis Rams —
6 32 198 Andre' Woodson Quarterback New York Giants —
7 17 224 Stevie Johnson Wide Receiver Buffalo Bills —
2009 6 34 207 Myron Pryor Defensive Tackle New England Patriots —
3 N/A N/A Jeremy Jarmon Defensive End Washington Redskins —
2010 3 19 83 Corey Peters Defensive Tackle Atlanta Falcons —
4 7 105 Trevard Lindley Defensive Back Philadelphia Eagles —
5 8 139 John Conner Fullback New York Jets —
2011 2 32 64 Randall Cobb* Wide Receiver Green Bay Packers Pro Bowl (2014, 2015)
2012 6 11 181 Winston Guy Defensive Back Seattle Seahawks —
6 18 188 Danny Trevathan† Linebacker Denver Broncos Super Bowl Champion (50)
2013 3 3 65 Larry Warford Guard Detroit Lions –
2014 5 11 151 Avery Williamson Linebacker Tennessee Titans –
2015 1 22 22 Bud Dupree Linebacker Pittsburgh Steelers —
4 23 122 Za'Darius Smith Defensive End Baltimore Ravens
How many of those players would have gained a lot by being in college another year? Not sure if there are any, of course some lower rated players might have had a chance at a career IF they had stayed for five years, and we have some that made rosters like that------but not FIVE STARS. How many on this list stayed at UK for five years, I know Woodson, Burton, and Tamme (Woodson didn't dedicate for three years, Burton and Tamme late five stars) did but not sure of any others, yeah, Lindley but he was a FIVE POINT ONE I believe, and he not only redshirted but he also grayshirted IIRC. Pretty sure no one left before four years after Cobb. I would say the only four you said left early, three years, Jarmon (not by choice and a fifth year (?) but wasn't he a two star, long way from a five star), Robertson, maybe not but the #4 overall draft pick and if he stayed four he wasn't smart about it, Robertson and Couch All World as recruits, and Couch, three years and a no brainer, $51,000,000 contract?? Could Williamson or Dupree have had a fifth year if they wanted, too hard to look up on here with the new format so I am guessing on some of this stuff, if one of the two LBs could have stayed you might have left Jarmon off your list, but neither made a mistake in leaving IMO, Dupree a first round pick.
NO PICKS in 06 AND 07-------PROBATION.
1999 1 1 1 Tim Couch Quarterback Cleveland Browns —
4 3 98 Craig Yeast Wide Receiver Cincinnati Bengals —
2000 5 28 157 James Whalen Tight End Tampa Bay Buccaneers –
2001 3 7 69 Eric Kelly Defensive Back Minnesota Vikings —
7 33 233 Marlon McCree Defensive Back Jacksonville Jaguars —
7 36 236 Quentin McCord Wide Receiver Atlanta Falcons —
2002 3 33 98 Dennis Johnson Defensive End Arizona Cardinals –
2003 1 4 4 Dewayne Robertson Defensive Tackle New York Jets —
4 2 99 Artose Pinner Running Back Detroit Lions —
2004 7 43 244 Derek Abney Wide Receiver Baltimore Ravens –
2005 3 28 92 Vincent Burns Defensive End Indianapolis Colts –
2006 No selections
2007 No selections
2008 4 28 127 Jacob Tamme Tight End Indianapolis Colts —
4 29 128 Keenan Burton Wide Receiver St. Louis Rams —
6 32 198 Andre' Woodson Quarterback New York Giants —
7 17 224 Stevie Johnson Wide Receiver Buffalo Bills —
2009 6 34 207 Myron Pryor Defensive Tackle New England Patriots —
3 N/A N/A Jeremy Jarmon Defensive End Washington Redskins —
2010 3 19 83 Corey Peters Defensive Tackle Atlanta Falcons —
4 7 105 Trevard Lindley Defensive Back Philadelphia Eagles —
5 8 139 John Conner Fullback New York Jets —
2011 2 32 64 Randall Cobb* Wide Receiver Green Bay Packers Pro Bowl (2014, 2015)
2012 6 11 181 Winston Guy Defensive Back Seattle Seahawks —
6 18 188 Danny Trevathan† Linebacker Denver Broncos Super Bowl Champion (50)
2013 3 3 65 Larry Warford Guard Detroit Lions –
2014 5 11 151 Avery Williamson Linebacker Tennessee Titans –
2015 1 22 22 Bud Dupree Linebacker Pittsburgh Steelers —
4 23 122 Za'Darius Smith Defensive End Baltimore Ravens
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You all are over complicating things a bit. If a guy is good enough to make the 2-deep (maybe 3-deep) at his position then play him. If not, you should "try" to RS them.
Players who left early:
Couch
Johnson (although I think he did RS)
Robertson
Jarmon (RS, but only bc of stupid NCAA)
Cobb
Others?
Couch
Johnson (although I think he did RS)
Robertson
Jarmon (RS, but only bc of stupid NCAA)
Cobb
Others?
"All coaching staffs make good decisions and bad decisions. The problem with being the man with the whistle and the big contract is that you don't know how your decisions will turn out. You just have to balance many factors, take your best shots, and learn from their consequences."
There was no reason to write facts known to everyone unless you think it adds import to what you write following. It doesn't. This is more of the same: "But their job is to build a program that wins EVERY year, not just burning redshirts. That means optimal player development. And that usually means more redshirts."
But their job is also to "These coaches want to win. Now." BTW, I want to win now vs. 2019 too. If we do, then I think we could very well have a good GAA replacement sign with UK before 2019. I take it you'd rather wait till 2019 to win though.
"I doubt GAA's actual 2015 contributions came close to what he could have contributed to our 2019 team as a 5th year senior."
You have no idea if GAA would have been here in 2019 if he didn't play in 2015, but of course if he was here in 2019 what you say is true. Duh. And he could have waited to enroll in 2017 & his 2021 contributions no doubt would be even higher.
"The argument that a small contribution justifies using a true freshman always rings with some fans,"
I think GAA made more than a small contribution in 2015. Ask Stoops & Schlarman. Unless they agree with you, you belittle GAA there. And if GAA's contribution was small, then & only then do you have a point. I don't know anyone who thinks a RS should be burned for a small contribution. Who are these "rings with some fans" fans?
BTW, if UK is 5-3 with 4 games to go & Leavitt & Meadows are out for 2+ games, you wouldn't burn LT's RS at that point? I would. If that meets your ""The argument that a small contribution justifies using a true freshman always rings with some fans,", then OK, I'm one of those "some fans". I think it would be a huge contribution.
Not sure I follow you Slugger, he plays the same on the field either way. If he's good enough and plays as a freshmen and soph then leaves he's played two years. If he redshirts then leaves after RS Frosh and Soph years he's played two years. The redshirt doesn't change how many on the field years you get out of a player. It just can help manage how many productive years you get out them.
You only cheat the team if he isn't ready as frosh and then blossoms as a soph enough to leave. All this said, it's tough for any freshmen to be really ready to go in the SEC so you only play them if the people in front still aren't ready or are less ready. In that case get the talent on the field.
And BTW Landon isn't the type to be in a hurry to leave if things are going well for the program
Okay. You can't remember. I can. Stop trying to make this personal.You sure know how to twist words. I clearly stated, "I can't remember the last time UK had a lineman of his size and mobility, maybe never." I never said he was the best and most talented ever signed. When someone says "maybe", that leaves some wiggle room for being mistaken. UK may have had some better players, but very few could match his combined size, strength, and athleticism. Not sure why we are having this argument. Seems pretty petty that it was started. Anyway, better luck next time.
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