Howard Dean doubles down. Hate speech is not protected by the First Amendment

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
38
Despite the fact that both liberals and conservatives have denounced his ridiculous statement. Hate speech is most certainly protected. Flag burning can be considered hate speech. The Westboro Baptist church regularly engages in hate speech. Why do libs insist on shutting down speech they disagree with? Why is is mostly libs trying to do this? Not just stupid students from faculty and administrators. Something is very, very wrong on many college campuses today.

He cites fighting words. But, the court has held:

The court has continued to uphold the doctrine but also steadily narrowed the grounds on which fighting words are held to apply. In Street v. New York(1969),[3] the court overturned a statute prohibiting flag-burning and verbally abusing the flag, holding that mere offensiveness does not qualify as "fighting words". In similar manner, in Cohen v. California (1971), Cohen's wearing a jacket that said "**** the draft" did not constitute uttering fighting words since there had been no "personally abusive epithets"; the Court held the phrase to be protected speech. In later decisions—Gooding v. Wilson (1972) and Lewis v. New Orleans (1974)—the Court invalidated convictions of individuals who cursed police officers, finding that the ordinances in question were unconstitutionally overbroad.

In R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul (1992), the Court overturned a statute prohibiting speech or symbolic expression that "arouses anger, alarm or resentment in others on the basis of race, color, creed, religion or gender" on the grounds that, even if the specific statute was limited to fighting words, it was unconstitutionally content-based and viewpoint-based because of the limitation to race-/religion-/sex-based fighting words.

In Snyder v. Phelps (2011), dissenting Justice Samuel Alito likened the protests of the Westboro Baptist Church members to fighting words and of a personal character, and thus not protected speech. The majority disagreed and stated that the protester's speech was not personal but public, and that local laws which can shield funeral attendees from protesters are adequate for protecting those in times of emotional distress.
 

Keyser76

Freshman
Apr 7, 2010
11,912
58
0
I find it amusing how with all that the GOP has on its plate this week that Howard Dean and the head of the Democratic party are the subject of your posts. Hard to be the ones governing isn't it.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
38
I find it amusing how with all that the GOP has on its plate this week that Howard Dean and the head of the Democratic party are the subject of your posts. Hard to be the ones governing isn't it.

Just showing all how shallow, ignorant and bigoted they are.
 

WVUCOOPER

Redshirt
Dec 10, 2002
55,555
40
31
Despite the fact that both liberals and conservatives have denounced his ridiculous statement. Hate speech is most certainly protected. Flag burning can be considered hate speech. The Westboro Baptist church regularly engages in hate speech. Why do libs insist on shutting down speech they disagree with? Why is is mostly libs trying to do this? Not just stupid students from faculty and administrators. Something is very, very wrong on many college campuses today.

He cites fighting words. But, the court has held:

The court has continued to uphold the doctrine but also steadily narrowed the grounds on which fighting words are held to apply. In Street v. New York(1969),[3] the court overturned a statute prohibiting flag-burning and verbally abusing the flag, holding that mere offensiveness does not qualify as "fighting words". In similar manner, in Cohen v. California (1971), Cohen's wearing a jacket that said "**** the draft" did not constitute uttering fighting words since there had been no "personally abusive epithets"; the Court held the phrase to be protected speech. In later decisions—Gooding v. Wilson (1972) and Lewis v. New Orleans (1974)—the Court invalidated convictions of individuals who cursed police officers, finding that the ordinances in question were unconstitutionally overbroad.

In R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul (1992), the Court overturned a statute prohibiting speech or symbolic expression that "arouses anger, alarm or resentment in others on the basis of race, color, creed, religion or gender" on the grounds that, even if the specific statute was limited to fighting words, it was unconstitutionally content-based and viewpoint-based because of the limitation to race-/religion-/sex-based fighting words.

In Snyder v. Phelps (2011), dissenting Justice Samuel Alito likened the protests of the Westboro Baptist Church members to fighting words and of a personal character, and thus not protected speech. The majority disagreed and stated that the protester's speech was not personal but public, and that local laws which can shield funeral attendees from protesters are adequate for protecting those in times of emotional distress.
Has anyone's star burned out quicker than Howard Dean? I don't remember seeing him since his Iowa speech.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
38
Has anyone's star burned out quicker than Howard Dean? I don't remember seeing him since his Iowa speech.

He's on MSNBC quite a bit, but I haven't seen him on the campaign trail. I think they can't control what he says and that worries the campaigns. With him, you never know what will come out of his mouth.
 

op2

Senior
Mar 16, 2014
11,174
547
103
Has anyone's star burned out quicker than Howard Dean? I don't remember seeing him since his Iowa speech.

I think he was DNC char at some point after that. He's still well respected in Dem circles. Statement like his, along with his doubling down and the not-so-big reaction to it all, are (yet another) sign that the left is splitting IMO. The left has long stood for liberalism and in the social aspect of that at least they won big time. Free speech, freedom of religion, freedom from religion, womens rights, gay rights, all that stuff seems normal now but it wasn't always that way. The Left fought for that and they won. But there has been creeping change on the Left towards intolerance and a tendency towards trying to control people and I think we're seeing that with what Dean said.

Remember the old line "I may disagree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it?" That used to be a standard line for the Left but I can't imagine a Dem politician saying it nowadays.

The problem I think is that if you don't have standards (hopefully good ones) you can start to look silly very quickly. Too often today the standard of some on the Left is "Because I said so." That's not a standard, it's bullying. Liberalism has good standards and if Hilary would have stuck with them she'd have won IMO.

One standard was respect and rights for women. I'm sorry but glorifying the hijab does not promote respect and rights for women. I get the genesis of the urge. Muslims are a minority in this country and minorities need protected from majority trample. Muslims should absolutely be protected from any kind of persecution in this country.

But that said, I can't think of bigger symbol of female oppression than the hijab. I can understand tolerating it because it is their religion (while also stressing that we will not bend on women's rights) but I cannot understand at all the glorifying and fetishising of it. It is creepy and yes, it is misogynistic. And when Muslim women start getting their rights,which unfortunately will probably take decades or more, they won't look back fondly at those that were siding with their oppressors.

I wish it were easier for 3rd parties to get going in our system. Unfortunately you pretty much can't get anything going unless it's through the Dems or GOP. If it were we're have more viable parties and thus more choices. In France the likely next Prime Minister belongs to a party that only came into existence a year ago. Unfortunately that is basically impossible here.
 

Boomboom521

Redshirt
Mar 14, 2014
20,115
6
0
Despite the fact that both liberals and conservatives have denounced his ridiculous statement. Hate speech is most certainly protected. Flag burning can be considered hate speech. The Westboro Baptist church regularly engages in hate speech. Why do libs insist on shutting down speech they disagree with? Why is is mostly libs trying to do this? Not just stupid students from faculty and administrators. Something is very, very wrong on many college campuses today.

He cites fighting words. But, the court has held:

The court has continued to uphold the doctrine but also steadily narrowed the grounds on which fighting words are held to apply. In Street v. New York(1969),[3] the court overturned a statute prohibiting flag-burning and verbally abusing the flag, holding that mere offensiveness does not qualify as "fighting words". In similar manner, in Cohen v. California (1971), Cohen's wearing a jacket that said "**** the draft" did not constitute uttering fighting words since there had been no "personally abusive epithets"; the Court held the phrase to be protected speech. In later decisions—Gooding v. Wilson (1972) and Lewis v. New Orleans (1974)—the Court invalidated convictions of individuals who cursed police officers, finding that the ordinances in question were unconstitutionally overbroad.

In R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul (1992), the Court overturned a statute prohibiting speech or symbolic expression that "arouses anger, alarm or resentment in others on the basis of race, color, creed, religion or gender" on the grounds that, even if the specific statute was limited to fighting words, it was unconstitutionally content-based and viewpoint-based because of the limitation to race-/religion-/sex-based fighting words.

In Snyder v. Phelps (2011), dissenting Justice Samuel Alito likened the protests of the Westboro Baptist Church members to fighting words and of a personal character, and thus not protected speech. The majority disagreed and stated that the protester's speech was not personal but public, and that local laws which can shield funeral attendees from protesters are adequate for protecting those in times of emotional distress.
Paxxx, incendiary speech causes fires that could get people really hurt. There's a fine line to be sure, but I like it when public safety matters. Especially on college campuses. Someone verbally abusing one of your children or your wife is protected as well, but if it goes to blows.....and you get charged with assault, did those words matter?
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
38
Paxxx, incendiary speech causes fires that could get people really hurt. There's a fine line to be sure, but I like it when public safety matters. Especially on college campuses. Someone verbally abusing one of your children or your wife is protected as well, but if it goes to blows.....and you get charged with assault, did those words matter?

Who decides if a speech is "incendiary." You? The school administrators? The First Amendment is vital to our nation and if you let hecklers, demonstrators, assaulters, destroy the First Amendment you are giving them a veto.

SCOTUS has defined first amendment limits and these speeches come no where close to any of them. Ben Carson, Condi Rice, Ben Shapiro, Jason Riley have all been stopped from speaking as have many, many more. Are they incendiary speakers?

If someone threatens you, that is NOT protected First Amendment speech. So you example of verbally abusing your children or your wife fail in this example.
 

eerdoc

Redshirt
May 29, 2001
24,013
24
38
Has anyone's star burned out quicker than Howard Dean? I don't remember seeing him since his Iowa speech.
His 'star ' was never more than a nearly exhausted ember. Hardly brighter than an extinguished match .
Really a 'man ' of very limited consequence.
 

Boomboom521

Redshirt
Mar 14, 2014
20,115
6
0
Who decides if a speech is "incendiary." You? The school administrators? The First Amendment is vital to our nation and if you let hecklers, demonstrators, assaulters, destroy the First Amendment you are giving them a veto.

SCOTUS has defined first amendment limits and these speeches come no where close to any of them. Ben Carson, Condi Rice, Ben Shapiro, Jason Riley have all been stopped from speaking as have many, many more. Are they incendiary speakers?

If someone threatens you, that is NOT protected First Amendment speech. So you example of verbally abusing your children or your wife fail in this example.
Verbal abuse doesn't necessarily mean threats. But whatever, I'm not for blocking speakers (as I'm sure you know I've said before), but I'm also for safety. Some people's whole angle is pushing buttons and causing controversy, people get angry and out of hand. Neither side is right, but administrators are charged with protecting students well being.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
38
Verbal abuse doesn't necessarily mean threats. But whatever, I'm not for blocking speakers (as I'm sure you know I've said before), but I'm also for safety. Some people's whole angle is pushing buttons and causing controversy, people get angry and out of hand. Neither side is right, but administrators are charged with protecting students well being.

Then provide enough security to ensure the safety of the attendees. Heckler's vetoes should never be allowed.