fate as a B12 middle of the pack or worse football program and that we don't have a shot of competing for the championship. That is such a defeatist and pessimistic attitude. If we're not in this to try to win it, what are we doing it for? I'm a realist; I understand the competition is very tough but that's not an excuse to give up and say that we don't have a chance and never will have a chance. Huggins doesn't accept that in basketball and we shouldn't accept it in football. The right football coach can make it happen but unfortunately DH is not that coach. I don't know who the right coach is but I think Lyons has made substantial contacts in his career and I think he should try to put his own stamp on the program. That being said, I think DH will get another year.
I don't understand the mentality that we should accept our
- Thread starter NC EnginEER
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It's not our fate to accept. We are just fans, some are reasonable, other's are not. Winning the way "fans" want to win will be difficult, that's just how it is. We aren't anymore entitled to victories than any other program. We don't have any real competitive advantages in the B12 like we did in the Big East.
You don't sound like the realist you claim to be. WVU is doing everything it can to have a great football program. It's not like this is the first time we've had average football.
This comment is ridiculous. You really think the players and staff isn't trying to win? That our administration isn't trying to win?
A couple years ago Oliver Luck did everything WVU fans wanted. Fired an average coach and hired someone new and we won a subsequent Orange Bowl. We got out of the Big East and joined an elite conference, we started facility upgrades, we entered a major media agreement and cleared out some hands in the cookie jar in the process -- all that is trying to "win it". If WVU didn't care, none of that stuff happens.
I'm talking about our fans that think we don't have a chance to win in the B12. I think our admin has taken steps to compete. One of those steps was hiring DH. That now appears to be a bad hire so we need to address that situation.
It really is just another part of the entitlement, we all got a trophy mentality. They all got trophies growing up and thus did not have to earn them. After a while, this breeds mediocrity. Well, these people are grown up and have learned to accept their participation trophy and be happy with it.
I do understand that the competition has gotten perceivably tougher and I also understand that we will not win 10 games every year. But we can look well coached. We can at least expect to be better than mediocre and show some sort of progression. We should be able to expect a coach in his fifth season to have a QB that can make his system work. I am not in favor of firing Holgorsen this season, mainly due to the amount of open positions, but surely even those who support him would have to say he has not earned an extension and that next season should be markedly better for him to get another year.
Even though these coaches make a lot of money, I know it is a big deal to fire a man from his job and I believe in giving a coach or anyone the most chances possible to prove himself. I personally hope Holgorsen gets things right and next season turns out like we all should be hoping it does.
You're right. Those folks growing up getting trophies for nothing simply don't know what it takes to correctly sit on their butts, watch a football game and afterward demand for the coach to be fired.
I come to this board to read opinions and it drives me crazy to see people say that we will never be able to compete with the big boys and we should just accept that we're going to lose to them. If you haven't seen that on here, you haven't been paying attention.
NC Boy....................with the degree.You are highly intelligent. Far too intelligent to let a football game drive you crazy. WV is a big boy and is competing with the big boys. They win a few and lose a few. That's the way the world goes round. Sometimes you up, sometimes you down. A half an inch of water...................you think your gonna drown. Warez
OK - maybe drive me crazy is an overstatement. But there are a lot of people that think we will never compete in the B12 and I hate to see such a defeatist attitude. If we're not competing in the B12, then we should change something and not just say that nothing can be done and we're never going to win in the B12.
Noone here ever says we can't compete, just suggests after every season that Dana is getting us there and we need to be patient. Some of us however feel that is an overused excuse. I don't think Dana is a Good Coach. Maybe a good coordinator.....and I'm tired of hearing about the learning curve. Others say we need to be patient, and being in a much tougher conference means folks need to lower their sights.
Please define bad hire. Poor play at critical times by the players made us a very average team. When we get junior senior depth we will play with more confidence and not before.
We are in the toughest conference in WVU history! Get real!
I for one do not want a first year head coach, and I do not think we can afford a 4 million a year to get a "proven" winner.
Just my opinion, but you are intitled to your opinion!
Go mountaineers!
Who, exactly ... name names please .... who has said that we will never have a shot at competing for a championship?
I think you overstate things.
I can accept our record this year because it's the only record we have.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do better.
OK. I'm not going to accept it. You're not going to accept it. Between the two of us, that should be all we need for Big 12 and national championships.
We've done our part.
Other than QB and one of the outside WR positions, where do we not have "junior senior depth" on this team?
On top of that we lose a lot of starters on defense for next year, so when can we expect some of this "junior senior depth" if we didn't have it this year?
Dana was a bad hire. Period. I didn't think he was a bad hire at the time but he has proven to be an average head coach at best. Poor play by the players comes back to the coach when it happens over and over.
Sure we're in a tough conference but not even coming close to competing for the championship in 5 years is not acceptable.
Why can't we afford $4 million? We make a lot of money in the B12 now. How much do lost season ticket sales and 15,000 to 20,000 empty seats cost us?
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I'm not going back to find out who said what but I've seen multiple times where posters have said that we should expect 6 or 8 wins because of the competition we're playing and they weren't just meaning this year. I realize that 6 or 8 wins is probably going to be our new normal but I don't think we should never expect it to be better than that.
What people have said is that WVU football has gone through numerous changes over the past few years. Coaching and staff changes, the need to significantly add to the player roster, and of course the change from a defunct conference to an elite conference in football that has brought new travel situations, and the need to face new coaching staffs, players and venues--few if any WVU has any advantages over in recruiting, facilities and fanbases.
Some recognize its not an easy process that will see overnight or even "overyear" success. WVU is not an elite program that just reloads and now must face excellent programs most of the season as good as or better than WVU. These people by and large also understand there is no magic bullet of a coach coming to Morgantown that is going to immediately change anything, and in fact could be quite a setback.
Others think-oh, in a different time in a different conference this person accomplished this or that, so if you ignore all the changes WVU has had to go through then the successes should be exactly the same.
These people actually believe if you bring back someone from the past miraculously everything will be different--even though those from the past haven't had the same success elsewhere they had at WVU in a different conference--and they aren't very likely to be coming back anyway as they have a job where the fanbase isn't so fickle and expectations aren't unrealistic.
Some recognize its not an easy process that will see overnight or even "overyear" success. WVU is not an elite program that just reloads and now must face excellent programs most of the season as good as or better than WVU. These people by and large also understand there is no magic bullet of a coach coming to Morgantown that is going to immediately change anything, and in fact could be quite a setback.
Others think-oh, in a different time in a different conference this person accomplished this or that, so if you ignore all the changes WVU has had to go through then the successes should be exactly the same.
These people actually believe if you bring back someone from the past miraculously everything will be different--even though those from the past haven't had the same success elsewhere they had at WVU in a different conference--and they aren't very likely to be coming back anyway as they have a job where the fanbase isn't so fickle and expectations aren't unrealistic.
did you forget it took several years to rebuild our scholarship numbers from the previous Stewart regime. You're assuming the program wasn't depleted when you use that 5 years window. We just got back to full strength this year. We are very young. We are inexperienced in several areas. Example: all the dropped passes by our WR's in the KState game. Last year during a game, it was noted that WVU was one of the top 5 youngest teams amongst the P5 conferences.
We lose 8 seniors on defense this year and 3 seniors on offense. You heard wrong.
if that number is correct, only losing 11 guys is damn good and shows it was right. We are very young. Stop mouth breathing. Idiot.
I'll wait for someone to prove the argument that WVU IS doing all it can to be great in football.
My argument is simple enough even you could get it.
As of yet you don't have an argument. You only disagreed with my own. If you want to stick with, "no it isn't", that's fine with me.
"..appears to be a bad hire...."---appears this way to WHOM? You? A few of your limited information friends? Others unable to assemble and assess multiple facets to a problem? Fools, in general? Such postings are disgusting while, at the same time, being sad that we have folks around that are so inept and incapable of intelligent mental processing.
I just love it any time I see Bender In a thread...classic!...well done Darth....If he gets up, we'll all get up...it'll be anarchy.
If you think Dana was a good hire, then you are the fool. I don't know how you can look at his 5 years here, the K-State game last weekend, our QB situation, some of hires/moves (DeForrest anyone?), and conclude that Dana is anything but a bad hire.
The last time WVU played schedules close to this tough was under Nehlen. When he came in, PSU and Pitt were national powers. It took him 4 years to beat Pitt and another 4 to start beating them regularly after they began their slide. He beat PSU in '84, the first time WVU had done so in 28 years. He beat them again in '88 and never again. Both wins came over PSU in down years. Why? WVU doesn't have access to the same talent as PSU.
Don first played Miami in '83. Both were programs then on the rise. (Miami had seriously discussed dropping football in '79.) Miami won the National Championship on it's home field later in that season. WVU had a solid season and eeked out a win over a so-so Kentucky team in a no name bowl in Alabama. (I about froze my nuts off at that game). In '85 WVU and Miami started playing regularly. Don beat a very legit Miami team in '93, and one heavily undermanned a few years later due to probation from the Erickson years.
Two wins over a team on the verge of dropping football a mere 4 years before they started playing regularly. What was the difference? Lou Saban then Howard Schnellenberger wised up to the fact that there was more talent in Dade County than most states. They got the snobs in Coral Gables to start allowing those kids in, and their football program went through the roof.
Virginia Tech. WVU owned Virginia Tech for years. If WVU lost to Virginia Tech, the WVU fanbase went apesh!t. Tech once had a 10-1 season as an independent and went to the Weedeater Bowl in Shreveport, in Bruce Smith's senior year. The way the Tech fans celebrated over going to that bowl was like they'd won the national championship. Tech had many bowl eligible season before that, but no one wanted them.
Frank Beamer takes over in the late 80's and upgrades the schedule. Tech is improving but still struggling as it enters the Big East. Beamer is told he has one more year after the '92 season. He makes wholesale changes to his staff and Tech goes to one of the BE bowl openings in '93. Beamer who has been slowly making recruiting inroads into the Tidewater and NOVA in his earlier years, has something to build on. Tech starts beating archrival UVA on the field and in recruiting. Tech goes on a 15 year roll. Why? Because there is a boatload of talent in the two areas mentioned above.
Finally lets look at WVU. Nehlen is a good X and 0's coach. Two, he realizes that the talent base in WV is pretty sparse, maybe 5 quality D-I kids in an an excellent year, so he goes the Nebraska route; Concentrate the recruiting in nearby talent rich states, builds a walk-on program with the instate kids, takes partial qualifiers, and goes heavy on redshirting, the weights, and multi-year development. It works well and WVU is very competitive.
Fast forward 10 years past Nehlen. Partial qualifiers are no longer allowed by league rules at WVU. The NCAA has restricted what you can do with walk-ons, no more bringing them in early with the rest of the players and no more access to the training table. This combined with the 85 scholarship rule, which has been in effect for years, starts to play havoc with WVU's depth, as those walk-ons don't get the full work they used to. WVU is always going to be the second or third choice for out of state kids, it's only natural, and the amount of young people in the state are declining.
WVU now has to travel over a thousand miles for away games with less depth than any time in it's history You could hire Pete Carroll, but you're not going to overcome WVU's demographic problems in the long run. The players don't exist in sufficient numbers inside the state.
K-State has similar demographic problems, but the state of Kansas has a JC system that allows KSU to use it as a feeder system. They don't have to sweat the walk-on dilemma, they can cherry pick after watching the kids develop on someone else's dime for a year or two, then give a scholly. Two, K-State doesn't have to travel a thousand miles plus miles to get to most away games.
Dana is getting WVU to bowls with little more than smoke and mirrors in the toolbox. With WVU's built-in disadvantages, competing for a Big-12 Championship once or twice a decade is what's in the cards for any WVU coach for the foreseeable future.
Don first played Miami in '83. Both were programs then on the rise. (Miami had seriously discussed dropping football in '79.) Miami won the National Championship on it's home field later in that season. WVU had a solid season and eeked out a win over a so-so Kentucky team in a no name bowl in Alabama. (I about froze my nuts off at that game). In '85 WVU and Miami started playing regularly. Don beat a very legit Miami team in '93, and one heavily undermanned a few years later due to probation from the Erickson years.
Two wins over a team on the verge of dropping football a mere 4 years before they started playing regularly. What was the difference? Lou Saban then Howard Schnellenberger wised up to the fact that there was more talent in Dade County than most states. They got the snobs in Coral Gables to start allowing those kids in, and their football program went through the roof.
Virginia Tech. WVU owned Virginia Tech for years. If WVU lost to Virginia Tech, the WVU fanbase went apesh!t. Tech once had a 10-1 season as an independent and went to the Weedeater Bowl in Shreveport, in Bruce Smith's senior year. The way the Tech fans celebrated over going to that bowl was like they'd won the national championship. Tech had many bowl eligible season before that, but no one wanted them.
Frank Beamer takes over in the late 80's and upgrades the schedule. Tech is improving but still struggling as it enters the Big East. Beamer is told he has one more year after the '92 season. He makes wholesale changes to his staff and Tech goes to one of the BE bowl openings in '93. Beamer who has been slowly making recruiting inroads into the Tidewater and NOVA in his earlier years, has something to build on. Tech starts beating archrival UVA on the field and in recruiting. Tech goes on a 15 year roll. Why? Because there is a boatload of talent in the two areas mentioned above.
Finally lets look at WVU. Nehlen is a good X and 0's coach. Two, he realizes that the talent base in WV is pretty sparse, maybe 5 quality D-I kids in an an excellent year, so he goes the Nebraska route; Concentrate the recruiting in nearby talent rich states, builds a walk-on program with the instate kids, takes partial qualifiers, and goes heavy on redshirting, the weights, and multi-year development. It works well and WVU is very competitive.
Fast forward 10 years past Nehlen. Partial qualifiers are no longer allowed by league rules at WVU. The NCAA has restricted what you can do with walk-ons, no more bringing them in early with the rest of the players and no more access to the training table. This combined with the 85 scholarship rule, which has been in effect for years, starts to play havoc with WVU's depth, as those walk-ons don't get the full work they used to. WVU is always going to be the second or third choice for out of state kids, it's only natural, and the amount of young people in the state are declining.
WVU now has to travel over a thousand miles for away games with less depth than any time in it's history You could hire Pete Carroll, but you're not going to overcome WVU's demographic problems in the long run. The players don't exist in sufficient numbers inside the state.
K-State has similar demographic problems, but the state of Kansas has a JC system that allows KSU to use it as a feeder system. They don't have to sweat the walk-on dilemma, they can cherry pick after watching the kids develop on someone else's dime for a year or two, then give a scholly. Two, K-State doesn't have to travel a thousand miles plus miles to get to most away games.
Dana is getting WVU to bowls with little more than smoke and mirrors in the toolbox. With WVU's built-in disadvantages, competing for a Big-12 Championship once or twice a decade is what's in the cards for any WVU coach for the foreseeable future.
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Dana just finished year 5 and has shown to be nothing more than average. Even the Orange Bowl year was average as we struggled against the Big East....that big win in the bowl made everyone forget the season and raised expectations. Few programs with championships as a goal (Luck set that bar) will accept 5 or more years of mediocrity without making a coaching change. Most successful coaches hit there stride by this point or at least have shown signs that they are close. Beamer is the exception to the rule....it was year 7 when he turned it around. So it would seem we are either banking on Dana being another Beamer, waiting for the buyout to go down another year or accepting 7 wins as good enough.
Clearly you all know way better than Lyons, and are way more qualified than he. What was WVU thinking in bringing him on board and not some of you on this board?