If Brooks Conrad isn't unemployed next year something's wrong
- Thread starter ArlngtnDawg
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...is also the only one dumb enough to pull a pitcher who's been as lights out as Kimbrell just so he can have 'a lefty' pitching.......to a guy who hits lefties better than righties and had a hit off of one his last at bat. ie, Bobby Cox.
At least everyone realizes Les Miles can't manage the end of a game. After this game everyone will blame Conrad, and Bobby will skate yet again.
At least everyone realizes Les Miles can't manage the end of a game. After this game everyone will blame Conrad, and Bobby will skate yet again.
i personally felt like he should have left kimbrel in to pitch. and diory hernandez should definitely be playing second tomorrow nite.
I agree completely... Cox should have started Chipper at 3B and Prado at 2B..oh wait... ok Prado at 3B and Infante at 2B...oh wait..... yeah exactly... before you spout off your uninformed ******** remember that Conrad was NOT a regular until there was no other option.
And for anybody to say that Glaus is a "defensive replacement" at 3B is a @#%!*$% moron who hasn't watched a Braves game until the playoffs. I saw Glaus play 3B 6 times in AAA during his rehab and the Braves would be better off with Terry Pendleton playing 3B. The only reason Glaus was at 3B in Game 2 (to make the DP) was because there was a double switch to get his smooth .100 OPS bat in the lineup.
Conrad has some sort of mental block where he can't field the ball with a man on base.. it is UNREAL for a major league player.
And for anybody to say that Glaus is a "defensive replacement" at 3B is a @#%!*$% moron who hasn't watched a Braves game until the playoffs. I saw Glaus play 3B 6 times in AAA during his rehab and the Braves would be better off with Terry Pendleton playing 3B. The only reason Glaus was at 3B in Game 2 (to make the DP) was because there was a double switch to get his smooth .100 OPS bat in the lineup.
Conrad has some sort of mental block where he can't field the ball with a man on base.. it is UNREAL for a major league player.
when Chipper got hurt, it was Bobby who said they didn't need to go get another infielder thru a trade, because they had Diory Hernandez and Conrad.</p>
They got Derrek Lee when Chipper got hurt. There's only so much a manager can do when this many players get hurt, especially when they're first ballot hall of famers and all-stars.
Please never post about the Braves again. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Please never post about the Braves again. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
He can't play anywhere BUT 1B, and they already had Glaus, Hinske, and Freeman. That was an offensive move, not a defensive one. Chipper going down cut down on depth everywhere on the infield except 1B. They went and got Lee because someone (probably Cox) bet the farm on Glaus, and put too much stock into his May numbers, ignoring how feeble he looked the rest of the time, andfinally corrected their mistake.
When Chipper got hurt (and long before, back to spring training), it was COX'S assessment that Conrad and Diory Hernandez were viable replacements should another injury occur. Clearly, he was wrong.
Also note that the majority of my complaints have to do with his lefty/lefty obsession, exemplified last night in pulling Kimbrell for Dunn. Dunn's numbers aren't bad, but he's choked in several pressure situations already. Plus, Huff hits lefties better than righties. Bobby doesn't have as bad a history managing position players, but the recent history (Greg Norton, the outfield in general) isn't good either. The lefty/lefty matchup has value, but Cox way over magnifies it. It's one thing to go with Venters over Kimbrell to face a lefty, as they are comparable, but Dunn is in no way comparable to Kimbrell. I know Dunn's season numbers aren't bad (but nowhere near Kimbrell's), but he's been more lucky than good. Plus, he's not a closer, while Kimbrell has been his whole career. Throwing Dunn out there in his first save situation ever with 2 outs in the 9th of a playoff game, just so you can have a lefty out there, is Croomish. or maybe Les Miles is the better analogy.
When Chipper got hurt (and long before, back to spring training), it was COX'S assessment that Conrad and Diory Hernandez were viable replacements should another injury occur. Clearly, he was wrong.
Also note that the majority of my complaints have to do with his lefty/lefty obsession, exemplified last night in pulling Kimbrell for Dunn. Dunn's numbers aren't bad, but he's choked in several pressure situations already. Plus, Huff hits lefties better than righties. Bobby doesn't have as bad a history managing position players, but the recent history (Greg Norton, the outfield in general) isn't good either. The lefty/lefty matchup has value, but Cox way over magnifies it. It's one thing to go with Venters over Kimbrell to face a lefty, as they are comparable, but Dunn is in no way comparable to Kimbrell. I know Dunn's season numbers aren't bad (but nowhere near Kimbrell's), but he's been more lucky than good. Plus, he's not a closer, while Kimbrell has been his whole career. Throwing Dunn out there in his first save situation ever with 2 outs in the 9th of a playoff game, just so you can have a lefty out there, is Croomish. or maybe Les Miles is the better analogy.
http://capitolavenueclub.com/?p=3129#comments
I don't put the non-tender of KJ on Bobby, that was clearly a money move. I didn't think about pulling Conrad for the 9th, but that makes it even worse. Why is Diory Hernandez even on the postsesason roster? He's not used as a defensive backup (as evidenced by not replacing Conrad in the 9th last night), he's not used as a pinch runner (as evidence by Ross pinch-running for McCann), and he's obviously not a pinch-hitter, so WTF is he on the roster for? THAT is Croomish.
Also reminded me that they lost game 1 when Cox walked the terrible Sandoval to pitch to the righty (with a righty pitching) who's a much better hitter (Cody Ross) of late.
You still have wool for Bobby. Mine's been sheared. He's about to be gone anyway. Thank God.
I don't put the non-tender of KJ on Bobby, that was clearly a money move. I didn't think about pulling Conrad for the 9th, but that makes it even worse. Why is Diory Hernandez even on the postsesason roster? He's not used as a defensive backup (as evidenced by not replacing Conrad in the 9th last night), he's not used as a pinch runner (as evidence by Ross pinch-running for McCann), and he's obviously not a pinch-hitter, so WTF is he on the roster for? THAT is Croomish.
Also reminded me that they lost game 1 when Cox walked the terrible Sandoval to pitch to the righty (with a righty pitching) who's a much better hitter (Cody Ross) of late.
You still have wool for Bobby. Mine's been sheared. He's about to be gone anyway. Thank God.
look I don't totally disagree with all your points (although I see now that basically you just bring over the blog's thoughts) ...Dunn for Kimbrel was stupid.. agree. Walking Sandoval I would say I'm 50/50 on that one (hindsight is easy to say you would never do it) and like I said that night, Chipper and/or Prado get in front of that ball and make that play or at least keep the run from scoring. Cox also isn't to blame for Wagner, O'Flarety and Saito not being available either and if you saw Kimbrel the first time he came up I can understand his concerns.. but it was a bad move..agreed.
But you are totally wrong to blame Cox "thinking Conrad is a regular" or whatever you posted. When he said what you quoted it was with the intention of playing Prado (a natural 3B) at 3B and Infante at 2B (guy that ended up like 4th in batting in the NL) and Conrad staying in his starting once every 12 days and PH role. Conrad was a folk hero among Braves season ticket holders this season for his clutch hits and (surprising now) good defense in a pinch. Now lately, when he has had to play over his head, he is obviously hated. He is a great bench guy... multi-position switch hitter with moderate power but I hope to never see him again after this season.
No way you can blame Cox for Prado and Chipper and Glaus. And about Glaus... the Braves went after a number of other 1B candidates.. Did you really want to give a 3 year contract to Adam LaRoche with Freeman coming up?? Everybody wanted a major contract but with Freeman there and Chipper's uncertainty on returning they had to save the larger contract for a hopeful FA acquisition at 2B or 3B (positions where the Braves have nothing good in the minors) and let Prado play the other one. This isn't the 90's Braves....$$$$$$$$$ I'm SHOCKED they are even in the postseason with this lineup.
But you are totally wrong to blame Cox "thinking Conrad is a regular" or whatever you posted. When he said what you quoted it was with the intention of playing Prado (a natural 3B) at 3B and Infante at 2B (guy that ended up like 4th in batting in the NL) and Conrad staying in his starting once every 12 days and PH role. Conrad was a folk hero among Braves season ticket holders this season for his clutch hits and (surprising now) good defense in a pinch. Now lately, when he has had to play over his head, he is obviously hated. He is a great bench guy... multi-position switch hitter with moderate power but I hope to never see him again after this season.
No way you can blame Cox for Prado and Chipper and Glaus. And about Glaus... the Braves went after a number of other 1B candidates.. Did you really want to give a 3 year contract to Adam LaRoche with Freeman coming up?? Everybody wanted a major contract but with Freeman there and Chipper's uncertainty on returning they had to save the larger contract for a hopeful FA acquisition at 2B or 3B (positions where the Braves have nothing good in the minors) and let Prado play the other one. This isn't the 90's Braves....$$$$$$$$$ I'm SHOCKED they are even in the postseason with this lineup.
I've never thought he was a very good manager in the playoffs. Bitching about him not lifting Conrad for Hernandez in the 9th, as I did last night, is understood. Bitching about him pulling Kimbrell for a lefty-lefty matchup, as I did last night, is also understood. However, bitching about him playing Conrad, who got as many big hits during the season as anyone on the roster, after all the injuries is ridiculous.boomboommsu said:
As for Lee, they picked him up because he was the best infield bat available, and the hope was to play Infante and Prado at 2B/ 3B and that Glaus would be able to contribute at 3B after rehabbing. Then, Prado got hurt and Glaus didn't respond as well as hoped to rehab. Of course it was an offensive move, because they had to do something to replace Chipper in the lineup. Middle of the lineup infielders don't grow on trees, especially in August. In other words, getting D. Lee had everything to do with Chipper going down, and again, you don't know what you're talking about.
...I'm not bitching about himstarting Conrad over Diory. I'm bitching about the team, under Cox's assessment, not going out and getting another infielder. True, they didn't KNOW Prado would end up getting hurt, but they should have planned for it. Their plan was Conrad and Diory, and that plan sucked.
"(although I see now that basically you just bring over the blog's thoughts)"
nope. i hadn't even read that blog since before the playoffs until after my last post.
"Walking Sandoval I would say I'm 50/50"
i would be maybe 60/40 on it in a situation like last nights, 9th inning 2 outs or close. but this was way earlier, in a one run game, and walking Sandoval put another runner on base. that made it way dumber. Cody Ross, meanwhile, was grabbed by SF on a waiver claim. we could have had him for our hapless outfield, but passed for whatever reason. kind of appropriate that he keeps beating us. Ross has been red hot. Sandoval has been ice cold. just another dumb move.
in a sense i'm making mountains out of molehills here. it's similar to Stansbury. i've just seen the same coaching shortcomings over and over for too long now. i can't take the same mistakes any more.
"Did you really want to give a 3 year contract to Adam LaRoche with Freeman coming up??"
No, I wanted to offer arbitration to LaRoche. They didn't, because they were obsessed with getting a righty bat at 1B, even though none was available. They don't get that an average lefty bat is better than a has-been rightybat even when the lineup needs a righty bat. that's just how Cox is.
nope. i hadn't even read that blog since before the playoffs until after my last post.
"Walking Sandoval I would say I'm 50/50"
i would be maybe 60/40 on it in a situation like last nights, 9th inning 2 outs or close. but this was way earlier, in a one run game, and walking Sandoval put another runner on base. that made it way dumber. Cody Ross, meanwhile, was grabbed by SF on a waiver claim. we could have had him for our hapless outfield, but passed for whatever reason. kind of appropriate that he keeps beating us. Ross has been red hot. Sandoval has been ice cold. just another dumb move.
in a sense i'm making mountains out of molehills here. it's similar to Stansbury. i've just seen the same coaching shortcomings over and over for too long now. i can't take the same mistakes any more.
"Did you really want to give a 3 year contract to Adam LaRoche with Freeman coming up??"
No, I wanted to offer arbitration to LaRoche. They didn't, because they were obsessed with getting a righty bat at 1B, even though none was available. They don't get that an average lefty bat is better than a has-been rightybat even when the lineup needs a righty bat. that's just how Cox is.
Braves could not have afforded what LaRoche would have been granted..he was a Type B and early 30's and would have been granted 8-10, which would be insane for ATL in their situation to pay for him. Plus LaRoche has an idiot agent, remember he was demanding $30M over 3 years from ATL, "or else"..then he turned down 2 years $18 Million from SF, and ended up signing with AZ for 2 years $12 Million at the last minute (embarrassing). He refused the Braves 1 year $6M with an option. And, yes they wanted a RH bat, that wasn't a bad move based on the lineup. Glaus didn't work out, **** happens.
The Giants were awarded Ross because they had a higher waiver claim than San Diego and Atlanta and Philly (record at the time). All four teams publicly announced that they put in a claim for Ross... at $1M for the rest of the season, who wouldn't. The Giants were the team that didn't need him the worst but didn't want him going to San Diego who needed a CF badly.
The Giants were awarded Ross because they had a higher waiver claim than San Diego and Atlanta and Philly (record at the time). All four teams publicly announced that they put in a claim for Ross... at $1M for the rest of the season, who wouldn't. The Giants were the team that didn't need him the worst but didn't want him going to San Diego who needed a CF badly.
$8-$10M arb award sounds high. I was hearing $6-$8. Plus, he was likely to turn down arb, netting a draft pick.
Glaus was not '**** happens'. It was "as expected".
I agree that desiring a RH bat based on the lineup was right. But where Cox and the Braves shoot themselves in the foot is when reality doesn't match desires. There wasn't a decent option fora RH bat on a one-year deal. LaRoche would have been overpaid by a couple million. But thems the breaks. LaRoche was still the better option, but they put overemphasis on righy/lefty. Similarly, if you have a lefty available as good as the righty currently pitching, and a lefty is coming up, then you can go with the lefty. But when the available lefty is far worse than the current righty pitcher? Cox still goes with the lefty. Every time.
I haven't heard that the Braves put in a claim for Ross.
Did some quick searching, and see the Braves were rumored to have pursued Ross at the July 31 deadline, but didn't offer enough.Couldn't have been much, since they gave him away for nothing a couple weeks later.Also that they were rumored to have put in a waiver claim (as were the Phillies) before he went to the Giants.
Their bigger waiver mistake was not getting a starting pitcher. Like the Conrad situation, they were on their last contingency, with no room for an injury.We're lucky Beachy came out of nowhere as is.I would have picked up Kevin Millwood. They not only did not pick up a starter, they released Chris Resop!
Some of this falls above Cox, but it's hard to know how much. Only an accountant would approve a $90M payroll yet not approve a couple million more to protect that investment after the injuries the Braves had. But Cox also clearly calls most of the shots out of the GMs office. The Resop situation had Cox written all over it.</p>
Glaus was not '**** happens'. It was "as expected".
I agree that desiring a RH bat based on the lineup was right. But where Cox and the Braves shoot themselves in the foot is when reality doesn't match desires. There wasn't a decent option fora RH bat on a one-year deal. LaRoche would have been overpaid by a couple million. But thems the breaks. LaRoche was still the better option, but they put overemphasis on righy/lefty. Similarly, if you have a lefty available as good as the righty currently pitching, and a lefty is coming up, then you can go with the lefty. But when the available lefty is far worse than the current righty pitcher? Cox still goes with the lefty. Every time.
I haven't heard that the Braves put in a claim for Ross.
Did some quick searching, and see the Braves were rumored to have pursued Ross at the July 31 deadline, but didn't offer enough.Couldn't have been much, since they gave him away for nothing a couple weeks later.Also that they were rumored to have put in a waiver claim (as were the Phillies) before he went to the Giants.
Their bigger waiver mistake was not getting a starting pitcher. Like the Conrad situation, they were on their last contingency, with no room for an injury.We're lucky Beachy came out of nowhere as is.I would have picked up Kevin Millwood. They not only did not pick up a starter, they released Chris Resop!
Some of this falls above Cox, but it's hard to know how much. Only an accountant would approve a $90M payroll yet not approve a couple million more to protect that investment after the injuries the Braves had. But Cox also clearly calls most of the shots out of the GMs office. The Resop situation had Cox written all over it.</p>
HighPointDawg said:
Also, with Steve Sax, and I remember three years ago Dan Uggla made a couple of errors in the All-Star game. What's weird is all of those players are/were second basemen.
I know on the third error Conrad simply came up to soon and the ball went right through the wickets. I feel bad for him.
$30 Million is not a "couple".. LaRoche declined the 1 year deal... said NO THANKS, I'm worth 3 years and walked away never to talk to the Braves again.boomboommsu said:
Kimbrel has 20 career innings, Dunn has 23.. .both with great ERAs... I know what you are trying to say here but it isn't like he has EVER pulled Wagner vs a RH batter for Kawakami or something.
They absolutely did. The Marlins made no effort to trade Ross before the deadline..
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I agree.. I wanted to see a starter picked up or traded for.. Millwood was to expensive but there were options. Resop wouldn't have made a difference.
Cox has his flaws and I am definitely ready to see somebody new in the dugout (although you never know what you will get) however getting this team to the playoffs was nothing short of a miracle and he had a lot to do with that.
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But so were mine, so no biggie.
LaRoche did not decline arbitration. The Braves never offered arbitration. If they had, and he declined, they would have gotten a draft pick. They offered a one-year deal at $6M after they declined to offer arbitration. This is the deal LaRoche declined. LaRoche made $7M last year, so my $6-$8M arb figure is a little off. There's no way he would have gotten $10M though. $8M to $8.5 or $9M would be my irrelevant guess now. So, a couple mil overpaid.
0.44 vs. 2 or 2.5 (Dunn's is somewhere in there) is not 'both with great ERAs'. Dunn has been good, albeit in favorable situations. Kimbrell has been lights out. Not even Wagner has pitched that good this year. And it's not as if Cox based it on anything. He didn't go talk to Kimbrell. The second Huff was coming up he bolted out of the dugout and signalled for the lefty. Hell, earlier this season he was pulling the same **** with Chavez, when his ERA was over 6. No other MLB manager would have pulled Kimbrell like that. And then Bobby pulls Dunn for Moylan after one batter, then pulls Moylan for Farnsworth after one batter, inone run game. It's like he forgot games can go into extra innings.
The Marlins shopped Ross before the July 31 deadline. That's reported in multiple places.
Millwood would have cost $2M a month on paper, but his team was willing to pick up some of the salary. They could have thrown in some middling prospects, a la D Lee, to get the money lower if they wanted. but yes there were plenty of options. it falls into the main point, that they did not plan for injuries.
Resop would have been far better an option than Beachy. His suitability alsofor the role ofthe long man out of the pen or emergency starter should have merited keeping him after Medlen got hurt. I don't understand the release at all. It looks like Cox just decided he didn't like him, and wasn't going to give him another shot no matter how well he was pitching in the minors. Cox fans always point to loyalty. but loyalty to someone who isn't producing comes at the expense of someone who is. Loyalty to KK came at Resop's expense. I don't consider that a plus.
"Cox has his flaws and I am definitely ready to see somebody new in the dugout (although you never know what you will get) however getting this team to the playoffs was nothing short of a miracle and he had a lot to do with that. "
Bobby both helped and hurt.Conrad probably doesn't get the chance to win those games he did under anyone else. But KKnor Chavez nor Glaus nor McClouth nor Melky would have stunk up the field for half the time underanyone else. But i'm out to win the WS, not to just be a playoff team. And Bobby's flaws are the type that hurt the most in the playoffs.
LaRoche did not decline arbitration. The Braves never offered arbitration. If they had, and he declined, they would have gotten a draft pick. They offered a one-year deal at $6M after they declined to offer arbitration. This is the deal LaRoche declined. LaRoche made $7M last year, so my $6-$8M arb figure is a little off. There's no way he would have gotten $10M though. $8M to $8.5 or $9M would be my irrelevant guess now. So, a couple mil overpaid.
0.44 vs. 2 or 2.5 (Dunn's is somewhere in there) is not 'both with great ERAs'. Dunn has been good, albeit in favorable situations. Kimbrell has been lights out. Not even Wagner has pitched that good this year. And it's not as if Cox based it on anything. He didn't go talk to Kimbrell. The second Huff was coming up he bolted out of the dugout and signalled for the lefty. Hell, earlier this season he was pulling the same **** with Chavez, when his ERA was over 6. No other MLB manager would have pulled Kimbrell like that. And then Bobby pulls Dunn for Moylan after one batter, then pulls Moylan for Farnsworth after one batter, inone run game. It's like he forgot games can go into extra innings.
The Marlins shopped Ross before the July 31 deadline. That's reported in multiple places.
Millwood would have cost $2M a month on paper, but his team was willing to pick up some of the salary. They could have thrown in some middling prospects, a la D Lee, to get the money lower if they wanted. but yes there were plenty of options. it falls into the main point, that they did not plan for injuries.
Resop would have been far better an option than Beachy. His suitability alsofor the role ofthe long man out of the pen or emergency starter should have merited keeping him after Medlen got hurt. I don't understand the release at all. It looks like Cox just decided he didn't like him, and wasn't going to give him another shot no matter how well he was pitching in the minors. Cox fans always point to loyalty. but loyalty to someone who isn't producing comes at the expense of someone who is. Loyalty to KK came at Resop's expense. I don't consider that a plus.
"Cox has his flaws and I am definitely ready to see somebody new in the dugout (although you never know what you will get) however getting this team to the playoffs was nothing short of a miracle and he had a lot to do with that. "
Bobby both helped and hurt.Conrad probably doesn't get the chance to win those games he did under anyone else. But KKnor Chavez nor Glaus nor McClouth nor Melky would have stunk up the field for half the time underanyone else. But i'm out to win the WS, not to just be a playoff team. And Bobby's flaws are the type that hurt the most in the playoffs.
<h6 style="font-weight: normal;" class="uiStreamMessage">I<font size="3">nfante - 4
Diaz - 7
Lee - 3
McCann - 2
<span class="text_exposed_hide"></span></font><span class="text_exposed_show"><font size="3">Gonzalez - 6
Heyward - 9
Glaus - 5
Ankiel - 8
Lowe - 1</font>
</span></h6>
Diaz - 7
Lee - 3
McCann - 2
<span class="text_exposed_hide"></span></font><span class="text_exposed_show"><font size="3">Gonzalez - 6
Heyward - 9
Glaus - 5
Ankiel - 8
Lowe - 1</font>
</span></h6>