would we have won a national championship in baseball by now? Multiple championships? He wanted the job but Templeton went the cheap way and hired Polk back, which I think is perhaps the worst hire in school history. So, does anyone else think we would have won a national title by now if Mainieri had been our coach the last 10 years?
If we had hired Mainieri back in 2002 when McMahon left
- Thread starter FlotownDawg
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I would not say it was the worst hire in school history. It was a very "LT" move, but Polk built our program to be the benchmark of the league. I think it would be better said that in hindsight, we should have gone a different route since Polk basically walked out the first time and we had some of the best coaches in the country knocking at the door.
I'm not giving LT any credit, though... I just would disagree that it's the worst hire in school history.
I'm not giving LT any credit, though... I just would disagree that it's the worst hire in school history.
It was probably the best position the school has ever been in to hire a really elite coach, so in that context it was pretty awful.
With regard to the original question, I'm going to say yes.
However, I'm not real confident in that. It's a tough question, but a good one. I honestly don't know, but if I had to guess I would say yes. Over 13 years I would like to think he would have won a championship. Not multiple championships though.
Edited to add: It was definitely not the worst hire. He did take us to Omaha in 2007, so you can't put it in the "worst hire in school history" category because of that. Not smart, but not the worst either.
However, I'm not real confident in that. It's a tough question, but a good one. I honestly don't know, but if I had to guess I would say yes. Over 13 years I would like to think he would have won a championship. Not multiple championships though.
Edited to add: It was definitely not the worst hire. He did take us to Omaha in 2007, so you can't put it in the "worst hire in school history" category because of that. Not smart, but not the worst either.
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Worst hire in school history? Not quite. Not taking up for LT bc he's definitely a dubmass but it's not even close. He had several far worse and even stricklin already has one hire in the race for the worst.
It was easily the worst hire when you consider what our alternatives were. We've hired some real bad coaches in the past, but usually we didn't have a much better option. In 2001, we could have easily hired one of the best coaches in college baseball, and instead we hired a retread who had quit caring about winning a decade earlier. Polk III wasn't the worst coach we've ever hired by a long shot, but it was easily the dumbest hire we've ever made. And I called it the day we hired him. Told a Bear buddy at work that we had made a big mistake. He just looked at me like I had lost my mind. I told him, just wait.
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To the original question, yes. Manieri would have won at least one national championship at MSU and he would be our coach today.
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To the original question, yes. Manieri would have won at least one national championship at MSU and he would be our coach today.
The reason I think this was the worst hire in school history
is because of the position we were in at the time. We had come off a Super Regional and back-to-back CWS appearances pretty recently and we had one of the top young coaches in college baseball who had taken Notre Dame to unprecedented success wanting the job. It would be the equivalent of Florida hiring a young Urban Meyer after his great success at Utah. We had the potential to hire a coach that would turn our program into one of the best in college baseball year in and year our, but instead we went with a retread who was well past his prime, and it set our program back 10 years. Yes, we did have that out of nowhere run to the 2007 CWS, but that was followed by three of the worst seasons in program history. Cohen is just now getting the program to the level that it could have been at 10 years ago. Yes Croom sucked, but we were awful when we hired him so it didn't make much of a difference in the national college football landscape. If we had hired Mainieri, I think he would have taken us to at least 3 or 4 CWS and won at least 1 national title to this point. It was an opportunity for us to grab greatness, but we did the Miss. State thing instead and went with the safe old pick that we felt comfortable with.
is because of the position we were in at the time. We had come off a Super Regional and back-to-back CWS appearances pretty recently and we had one of the top young coaches in college baseball who had taken Notre Dame to unprecedented success wanting the job. It would be the equivalent of Florida hiring a young Urban Meyer after his great success at Utah. We had the potential to hire a coach that would turn our program into one of the best in college baseball year in and year our, but instead we went with a retread who was well past his prime, and it set our program back 10 years. Yes, we did have that out of nowhere run to the 2007 CWS, but that was followed by three of the worst seasons in program history. Cohen is just now getting the program to the level that it could have been at 10 years ago. Yes Croom sucked, but we were awful when we hired him so it didn't make much of a difference in the national college football landscape. If we had hired Mainieri, I think he would have taken us to at least 3 or 4 CWS and won at least 1 national title to this point. It was an opportunity for us to grab greatness, but we did the Miss. State thing instead and went with the safe old pick that we felt comfortable with.
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He also took Notre Dame to the CWS. Check out how great Notre Dame's program has been since he left.
Probably no. Keep in mind he's only won 1 at LSU. Also,
he's only been to 3 CWS with LSU. They've had gift regionals/Supers (easy draws) and should have had more trips.
I would say that before last year, getting anywhere close to a 'real' national championship seemed crazy talk for State (since the 1990's anyway). It's easier to visualize now.
he's only been to 3 CWS with LSU. They've had gift regionals/Supers (easy draws) and should have had more trips.
I would say that before last year, getting anywhere close to a 'real' national championship seemed crazy talk for State (since the 1990's anyway). It's easier to visualize now.
FlotownDawg - Question you asked assumes that Mainieri would have been seriously interested in coming to MSU. Personal and family circumstances made that difficult, and he wasn't really an option at the time. LT took the easy, and least expensive, way out and brought Ron back. But that is all history, and what is more important now is how John Cohen acquires some consistent offense to complement the pitching and defense we have developed as our new baseball standard. We need competence in all three phases, not just two. John knows this, and hopefully can recruit the student - athletes necessary to make it happen.
Mainieri wasn't an option? first I've ever heard of that. where did that come from? I recall some quotes about our program and atmosphere from him after we beat ND in a regional. based on how fast he came down to BR once offered, I don't see how he wouldn't have jumped just as fast to come to MSU if he had not been offered .
This is about how I feel also. At the time Mainieri would have been the better hire, no doubt the team would have been in better shape than Polk left it but Polk did get the Omaha trip and Mainieri's whining really gets under my skin.
Information was obtained privately and personally that indicated two things. One, his children were at critical points in their education that made uprooting his family at that point in time very difficult. Two, his wife was not keen on the idea of moving to Starkville. And as you a very well may know if you are married, if mamma ain't happy, nobody's happy. ;-). I don't think the same reluctance applied to Baton Rouge, by the way. The opening at LSU fit with the timing, desires and longtime goal Paul had to win a national championship for his dad. It aso came at a better time for he and his family. If I remember correctly, he also used the potential of leaving Notre Dame for MSU and maybe somewhere else to secure a lot of concessions from the administration up there in terms of better support for the UND baseball program. Does that help to better explain the scenario that occurred?
The fanbase was already divided and the program was already on it's head.
The hiring of Ray simply failed to unify the fanbase on the front end -- something our history(John Cohen) would indicate was unlikely anyway. The change allowed a program that had been running on fumes to actually bottom out -- and is in the process of being rebuilt a different way. We'll get a pretty good idea about where that direction is taking us this year. I can find 100 posts basically identical to this on here from the end of Cohen's second year.
We definitely made the wrong hire in 2002, but I'm not convinced that Mainieri would have been the correct choice.
Fuzzy memory ...
and revisionist history but I thought that getting to the 'post season' was one of the ways we looked at coaches. Polk returned in '02 and in the seven years he was back, State went to 5 regionals, 1 SR and 1 CWS.
How can getting to the post season 5 of 7 years and to the CWS even be considered as any kink of 'worse' hire? Any school in the SEC not named LSU or USCe would give their left one for those numbers.
Fire away
and revisionist history but I thought that getting to the 'post season' was one of the ways we looked at coaches. Polk returned in '02 and in the seven years he was back, State went to 5 regionals, 1 SR and 1 CWS.
How can getting to the post season 5 of 7 years and to the CWS even be considered as any kink of 'worse' hire? Any school in the SEC not named LSU or USCe would give their left one for those numbers.
Fire away
Just "getting to the postseason" doesn't get it done at MSU baseball. And that's ALL Polk did in 4 of his 5 postseason appearances. McMahon had a CWS, 2 super regionals and a regional final in his 4 years at MSU and left Polk with the most drafted players ever to play together at MSU for Polk's first 2 years back. And Polk managed to underachieve every single year he was back except for a postseason run in 2007.
None of this was true. This was mostly information leaked after he was passed over to save face. This is the party line that almost all coaches parrot right after they didn't get a job that they pursued.
I can assure you. He wanted the job and he would've been here on the next plane.
All this talk about Polk II being a "terrible hire" is inaccurate. I don't think it was "terrible". It was just lazy. It was a typical Larry Templeton hire.
But it was Ron Polk that ...
MADE "MSU Baseball" and created fan expectations like yours. In his first stint at MSU, we went to 14 post seasons and 5 CWSs.
AND, in only his second year at Georgia, Polk took them to the CWS for their first time in 11 years.
So, if we had fired Croom earlier and hired Saban ... would State now have two football NCs?
MADE "MSU Baseball" and created fan expectations like yours. In his first stint at MSU, we went to 14 post seasons and 5 CWSs.
AND, in only his second year at Georgia, Polk took them to the CWS for their first time in 11 years.
So, if we had fired Croom earlier and hired Saban ... would State now have two football NCs?
History Lesson #2 ...
One of those Back-to-back MSU CWS appearances was by RON POLK in '97. And, Polk had already been to the CWS 5 times at State and had just taken Georgia to the CWS at Georgia in '01.
I won't argue the fact that Mainieri is a good coach and he took ND to the post season 9 times in 12 years BUT he only made the CWS ONCE in those 12 years.
One of those Back-to-back MSU CWS appearances was by RON POLK in '97. And, Polk had already been to the CWS 5 times at State and had just taken Georgia to the CWS at Georgia in '01.
I won't argue the fact that Mainieri is a good coach and he took ND to the post season 9 times in 12 years BUT he only made the CWS ONCE in those 12 years.
Meanwhile ...
Mainieri took ND to the post season 9 times in 12 years BUT only made the CWS ONCE in those 12 years.
Mainieri took ND to the post season 9 times in 12 years BUT only made the CWS ONCE in those 12 years.
And yet, McMahon's ony 4 seasons on the job is still the most successful 4 consecutive seasons in MSU history. Fact is, Polk was a has-been ever since he first retired in 1992. And it took us 3 VERY long years to recover from the damage he did to our program from 2002-2008.
I have 'zero' inside information ...
and don't really know if Mainieri was an option at the time or not BUT, I do know that ..."He started his college baseball playing career in 1976 at LSU. He played for one season, earning a letter, before transferring to Miami-Dade North Community College to play for his father, Demie Mainieri."
and don't really know if Mainieri was an option at the time or not BUT, I do know that ..."He started his college baseball playing career in 1976 at LSU. He played for one season, earning a letter, before transferring to Miami-Dade North Community College to play for his father, Demie Mainieri."
Common misconception.
The fans and passion made MSU baseball. When you are the first college in the country paying a full-time baseball coach who does nothing else -- you are going to be able to hire a good one.
Yea, and ...
Guess it was the ONLY "fans and passion" that made Bama football instead of Bear and it had to be that same ONLY "fans and passion" that made UCLA basketball instead of John Wooden.
Somebody got it going at State and some on here need to go back and read a little MSU history if they think it was simply "fans and passion" that made MSU baseball"
Gonna need a link for that "When you are the first college in the country paying a full-time baseball coach who does nothing else" statement.
Recall that Jake Gibbs gave up football recruiting and became a 'full time' baseball coach after the 'swimming scholarships' for his baseball team scandal in the early '70s. Also think that he was a "full-time baseball coach who does nothing else" the last time OM went to the CWS in '72.
Guess it was the ONLY "fans and passion" that made Bama football instead of Bear and it had to be that same ONLY "fans and passion" that made UCLA basketball instead of John Wooden.
Somebody got it going at State and some on here need to go back and read a little MSU history if they think it was simply "fans and passion" that made MSU baseball"
Gonna need a link for that "When you are the first college in the country paying a full-time baseball coach who does nothing else" statement.
Recall that Jake Gibbs gave up football recruiting and became a 'full time' baseball coach after the 'swimming scholarships' for his baseball team scandal in the early '70s. Also think that he was a "full-time baseball coach who does nothing else" the last time OM went to the CWS in '72.
Alabama had 5 national titles prior to Bear Bryant. Their fans and passion are WHY they pulled Bear Bryant in the first place -- to a place that was already a national power. You might as well have said that Nick Saban built Alabama football.
You can definitely make the argument that Wooten built the UCLA dynasty though.
Many of us know all about the history prior to Polk -- and our 12 conference titles. The LFL began under Gregory. That's when the passion that brought Polk to MSU in the first place was fostered -- when we were already a fine baseball program.
http://www.secdigitalnetwork.com/SE...0/sec-baseball-needed-a-well-placed-polk.aspx
If he wasn't the first in the country -- which I've seen before but can't find now -- he was definitely the first in the SEC.
Not according to the SEC website...
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Very interesting article. I can remember the old days when the SEC limited teams to 55 games while schools like Texas and Miami were playing 70+ and starting the first of February. I never knew that Polk was teaching 5 classes while coaching at GA Southern. College baseball and SEC baseball have come a long way since then.
Don't agree.
Hindsight is 20/20 but consider at the time:
1. Polk had been the best coach we had ever had.
2. His last year, we went to the CWS.
3. He only retired because he had promised McMahon that if he would stay at MSU and not take other opportunities that he would retire in a certain number (3?,4?,5?) of years. He honored his promise.
4. In a few years, he was bored and UGA hired him. UGA was irrelevant in baseball but Polk brought them to the CWS in short order.
5. McMahon bailed on us and Polk came back.
6. He took us to a CWS again.
I agree in hindsight, this may not have been the best move but to designate this as the worst hire ever is not appropriate.
Engie ...
You made some good points. State had had some good baseball teams and Gregory won 4 SEC titles and was the coach when Dudy Noble was constructed and you noted the LFL.
BUT, baseball was still an 'after thought' in the SEC. I was at the in '66 SEC title game out at Propst Park in Columbus when Ken Tatum beat Tennessee. Redbird Park was the home of the high school baseball team and there was less than 1000 present. Checked out of high school early to witness the last win over Tennessee in '70 for the SEC title at Dudy Noble. Again, there was probably 1200 present for those games. It wasn't until Polk arrived that baseball became a 'passion' at MSU and eventually the SEC.
From your link ....
If there is anybody who has ever earned his day in the sun, or a place where he can puff cigars while in a game uniform, it’s Polk who’s universally considered “The Father of SEC Baseball.” In his 31 years as a SEC head coach – 29 at Mississippi State from 1976 to ’97 and ’02-’08 and 2 at Georgia from ’00-’01, he won 1,218 games, five SEC regular season championships and took teams to the College World Series seven times (plus another in his first head coaching job at Georgia Southern).
You made some good points. State had had some good baseball teams and Gregory won 4 SEC titles and was the coach when Dudy Noble was constructed and you noted the LFL.
BUT, baseball was still an 'after thought' in the SEC. I was at the in '66 SEC title game out at Propst Park in Columbus when Ken Tatum beat Tennessee. Redbird Park was the home of the high school baseball team and there was less than 1000 present. Checked out of high school early to witness the last win over Tennessee in '70 for the SEC title at Dudy Noble. Again, there was probably 1200 present for those games. It wasn't until Polk arrived that baseball became a 'passion' at MSU and eventually the SEC.
From your link ....
If there is anybody who has ever earned his day in the sun, or a place where he can puff cigars while in a game uniform, it’s Polk who’s universally considered “The Father of SEC Baseball.” In his 31 years as a SEC head coach – 29 at Mississippi State from 1976 to ’97 and ’02-’08 and 2 at Georgia from ’00-’01, he won 1,218 games, five SEC regular season championships and took teams to the College World Series seven times (plus another in his first head coaching job at Georgia Southern).
See -- in my opinion -- that is a separate discussion. No one argues against Polk being "The father of modern SEC baseball". That's a different statement from saying that he "built" MSU though. We saw drastic expansion and improvement under his early watch certainly. But he should have walked in the early 90s and taken up his war against the NCAA full time. That would have been doing the "right thing" by Mississippi State...
When Polk Dement Stadium is replaced in a couple of years and John Cohen continues to have unprecedented success for us in a much more competitive era than Polk started out in, do we then say MSU baseball was built by John Cohen? Of course not. It wasn't "built" by him -- but it was "built upon" by him. IMO, the same is true for Polk. At some point, I accepted a fundamental truth that's been present for the entirety of my life in that MSU baseball is bigger than any one person -- and is something we can and do take pride in like no other. The number of people that care -- and the depth with which they care -- are both what built it and what sustains it.
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The two really go hand in hand. Did Polk build MSU baseball or did MSU baseball allow Polk to be the father of modern SEC baseball? Polk was the right man at the right place at the right time. We had a successful program and a LFL before Polk got here, but if we had hired someone else, it probably wouldn't have taken off like it did. At the same time, if Polk had gone somewhere like Tennessee back in 1976, he probably wouldn't have built anything near what he did at MSU.