This already happens. Also, a private donor paying tuition for a student athlete is not exactly the same thing as a “scholarship”
IHSA competitive balance committee minutes
- Thread starter sporthog_9er
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I am going to attend one of these
the proposal that I have stood by is that private schools should only be allowed to enroll kids that walk to their schools
all parking lots should be eliminated outside of those dedicated to staff.
busses should no longer be allowed to transport athketes, they will also have to travel to sporting on foot
the proposal that I have stood by is that private schools should only be allowed to enroll kids that walk to their schools
all parking lots should be eliminated outside of those dedicated to staff.
busses should no longer be allowed to transport athketes, they will also have to travel to sporting on foot
1 - YES. I met with Lynch a couple years back and he noted that every MC player was over 30mins away.
2 - Why 15miles? Why not 12? 10? 5?
- IMO, the programs would adapt and do a better job of getting kids that lived with in whatever radius.
3 - That's on the IHSA and their covid rules. Why is it ok if private win 5A and up but not below?
- And this one is always the most irrational. Let's make all privates play in 5A and up...so Walther Lutheran/St. Ed's/North Score County Day/Christ The King/etc make the playoffs for the first time in decades and have to play in 5A? Cmon.
The selective enrollment schools you mentioned are a very small subset of non-boundaried public schools. While generally athletically more competitive than non-selective CPS schools, they mostly are uncompetitive against regular public schools.
A good case in point is Payton this year. A non-boundaried public school that was multiplied up from 5A to 7A, Payton lost 56-0 in round 1 of 7A to a number 16 seed public school. Tell me again why they need to be multiplied?
I chose three selective public schools because they are schools that most folks recognize. What if I had chosen non-boundaried public schools like Marine Leadership Academy, Chicago Agricultural Science High School, or CVS? Should those athletic juggernauts be included in a separate division with private schools as well? Some people seem to think so, and that just boggles my mind.
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Right now, if an athlete gets a scholarship, every student that meets that same requirement gets that scholarship as well.
Right now there probably are some dads giving $$$ directly to family and friends so their kids can attend a private school. The important thing is that the school isn't involved at all.
That's different than a dad giving MC 100k and saying I want this to go to the football scholarship fund and I want it allocated for these kids. Or a business doing the same thing.
We can argue all day about the specifics of this. All I'm saying, is if the privates separated from the IHSA, it is my opinion, that you would see more kids that would traditionally go public school end up at private schools because private schools would not be bound to the IHSA's scholarship rules.
These are just ideas. Im not putting forward a proposal tomorrow for IHSA approval. The point of this was to see what could be done to balance the competitive advantages private schools have. Limiting your recruiting base can certainly do that and can be down in different ways.
I also do not believe for a second that MC has zero kids that live within the city limits of chicago.
How many kids does MC have in their program?...ya right zero within 30 minutes, I am with you 100000%.
It truly feels like ramblinman reborn is indeed reborn. Like he's been waiting on the sidelines for this to get dug up again from the depths of message board hell.
That's a fair point. Though in the argument for separation, non boundary is non boundary. I just can't stomach the CPL is different because they are CPL argument.
So let me get this straight, as it stands now private schools need the tuition from every student or they risk shuttering their doors, implying they aren't seeing enough in donations. If football splits from the IHSA then all of a sudden people will be throwing money at the school just for football scholarships?
In a previous thread I brought up MC playing more of a national schedule, similar to ESL, and the private backers came out and said it would be too great of a cost and they'd never be able to afford that, but if they split from the IHSA then people will open their wallets and donate for the football team?
Ahhhhhh, the NIPL.
The part that you don't mention about the NIPL is the "NI" part. That's Northern Illinois, so what about private/non boundary schools that fall outside of the Chicagoland area? Does the NIPL descend far enough to include schools like Ottawa Marquette? Are all schools on board with this? We talk about JCA, MC, and Loyola, but are teams Like De La Salle, Leo, Viator, and Iggy on board with the split? Or smaller schools like Jacksonville Routt?
It looks like there are about 125 private/non boundary schools in Illinois so how do you divide them? Competitive level, size, NIL endowment? How do schools outside of the Chicagoland area put together a full schedule? Most importantly that people don't seem to care about is how does the NIPL function for other sports? I don't see the IHSA allowing schools to compete in other sports after the private/non boundary schools turn their nose up to the IHSA.
As much as the NIPL excites me, it is simply a place holder name for something else. I understand the NIPL, titillating as it may be, will need to be tweaked.
Descending is not a phenomenon that I ever attributed to the NIPL before. Interesting visual, though.
Would it include OM? Yes.
The bigger question is if the NIPL would be alluring enough to seduce schools like PND, SHG, QND, and BMD into joining. I would like to think that a private school association would attract schools from far and wide, but I would also understand if practical considerations such as travel time to games ruled the day for some.
I have no idea. Haven't asked them.
But what would be their alternative if a critical mass of private schools decided to leave and form their own association?
If Loyola goes, Iggy would go, too.
Again, what's the alternative for schools like Leo, DLS, Viator, etc.? Obviously, the key would be to get as many schools as possible to jump ship. I could definitely see schools following because the alternative of staying in an athletic association dominated and run by public schools and competing for non-boundaried division championships is less palatable than jumping ship.
You are off by 93 schools. There are 218 by my count.
Don't know yet.
Perhaps.
In some way, sure.
Never say never.
Very carefully.
BTW, how do schools in huge relatively unpopulated states like Montana or Alaska do it?
I care about it, and I don't know. How does it work for girls volleyball in Montana where your closest potential opponent could be 50 miles away?
We can only hope.
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Ah yes, comparing Alaska to Illinois is the perfect 1 for 1 comparison. After a quick search it appears that they use regional airlines and ferries to travel sometimes 17 hours for games. Home teams will also host visiting teams for multiple days staying in classrooms and gyms to help offset costs. Estimated annual costs for travel is $20k-$60k with funding coming from boosters, fundraising, and oil revenue.
No one has all the answers, including the schools you speak of, which to me makes the NIPL more of a pipe dream than anything. I know you feel the IHSA has it in for private/non boundary schools yet there hasn't been anyone to come out and suggest they take their ball and erect the NIPL
How like you to reduce my entire post to a straw man argument on your part.
My question about Montana and Alaska was not to compare them to Illinois. Rather, it was an honest question to find out how other states with far flung schools figure out how they compete with each other. The assumption is that they have figured it out. If they can do it, then so can private schools in Illinois without such crazy distances to travel for games.
You're right, they won't come out and suggest it. For them, it's about creating an environment that is so onerous and distasteful to private schools that those schools would choose to leave on their own.
It's called quiet firing, and it's a thing. Look it up.
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This is my wheelhouse, Edgy, you know that!
Many of these posters have no idea of the early days of the public/private debate on this board and how we really had some knock down, drag out threads back in the day.
Your biggy backing off your other buddies comments. I haven't said anything of the sort.
But all of this conversation is pointless. Nothing actually gets solved on this board.
Please show me where I say this bud…
“private schools need the tuition from every student or they risk shuttering their doors, implying they aren't seeing enough in donations”
You literally said in post #28 that private school doors would all close down if they capped the number of out of district players on a football team. Did you forget that quick?
Lol
Sure did and I stand by that.
I didn’t say that they need the tuition dollars from every student or they’ll close. You said that.
Two different arguments.
That doesn't make sense. If they lose half of the student body they would still be fine? But if they lost 30 football players they would have to shut down?
Ca we please refrain from using the word “private” when referring to schools
public and “non public” are the preferred words to describe the schools in this topic
public and “non public” are the preferred words to describe the schools in this topic
Again, you are the one who brought up privates saying they need to charge tuition or else they will close. This is a separate argument and I certainly have my thoughts on it. However, you are putting words in my mouth and looping it in with changing the radius and attempting to strongarm my position.
I've spent a nauseating amount of time researching private schools and their funding over the past several years trying to figure out how I'm supposed to afford sending my (4) kids to one and how private schools as a whole are going to survive if inflation keeps going the way it's going.
I am also a vendor to numerous private/public schools across Chicagoland and am constantly reviewing their 990 forms.
Since I didn't give an opinion on private schools needing tuition dollars to survive I will share it now rather than you keep speaking for me.
The poorly operated ones most certainly do and the well operated ones do...but not nearly as much.
Well Operated Example: Wheaton Academy 990
- 40% (10.7m) of their 26m revenue is donations.
- 52% of their revenue is tuition (13.4m)
- they are operated at a surplus of 6.8m per their most recent 990 (guessing it went towards their massive capital campaign)
- Tuition is north of 20k a year but they have kids paying as little as 5k. This is because they have the Wheaton Academy Foundation Board that is tasked with raising funds for the school so family's can afford the tuition price and capital improvements. They do a fantastic job.
Their grade school is even more impressive. Wheaton Christian Grammar 990
- 54% of their revenue is donations.
Another good example is Chicago Christian. 44% of their revenue is donations.
Badly Operated: Yorkville Christian 990
-10% (189k) of their 1.8m revenue in donations.
- 72% of their revenue is tuition (1.3m)
- they operated at a loss of -$210,891 per their most recent 990.
*Aurora Christian and Parkview Christian are other Badly Operated examples.
Catholic Schools 990's are not publicly available but I imagine the top end one's operate similarly to Wheaton.
I'll add a tidbit I know from SF. Tuition and fees cover 80% of the cost to educate 1 student.
I can only speak of the one school in which I am pretty familiar. In my experience as a student, parent and coach, no one is throwing money at kids to come play football, or any sport, at this particular school. If they split from the IHSA, I don't see much of a change from this institution in the distribution of financial aid.
My take is that individuals/donors will give more if they knew those additional dollars will go towards athletic scholarships.
Man you are all over the place. Im not speaking for you. Im trying to understand the circles you keep talking in and why you deny, then standing by, then denying again statements that you have made.
At what point in this conversation did I say privates need to charge tuition or they will close? Its also very hard to strongarm your position if I don't understand it in the first place.
Mind you, these are all in response to the same question.
And once you decide on a school, and hopefully it's the right one for you and your family, how much extra on top of tuition will you be contributing to the football program if privates separate from the IHSA?
I generally agree with you on this.
However, I also think it's a crapshoot to be too definitive in our predictions of what such a split would look like once the IHSA competitive shackles come off and the dust clears.
Sometimes in threads like these, I get carried away and imagine a post-IHSA world for private schools where the regulatory pendulum swings to the far other side and private schools are allowed to be their best selves competitively with no restrictions. It's kind of fun to imagine things like a 10-game regular season, athletic scholarships, spring football, no eligibility radius, no multiplier, playoff classification promotion/relegation, etc. Would all of those things happen in the case of a split? Probably not. Would some of them? Perhaps.
The reason why it's a crapshoot to definitively predict what a split would look like is because the degree to which private schools would self-regulate is a huge variable.
Some would give more and some would give for the first time. Mark Cuban giving to IU athletics for the first time is not coincidental with the extraordinary success of the football Hoosiers.
I suspect that athletic scholarships would either not be allowed or they would be tightly controlled by whatever athletic association the private schools decide to form.
Would be interesting to see how it would hypothetically work but my gut says that schools like Naz who already do a phenomenal job with financial aid will only take and their football program would rise to another level.
Nazareth Scholarships
I've toyed with this over the years. Each time, I come up with something different.
The big unknown is always who is in the NIPL to begin with. Is it some private schools or all of them? Are non-boundaried public schools in or out?
For the sake of discussion, let's agree that it's private only and it's all of them. In a scenario like that, there are roughly 50 football playing private schools, so you can't have more than 3 classes of 8-team brackets in order to make it so that roughly 50% of schools qualify. That's why I like the concept of a 10-game regular season so that everyone gets that extra game and only the top half who qualify get to play up to three more playoff games.
How to qualify and classify those 24 teams into three classes is something where enrollment will need to be taken into consideration, but it wouldn't be the sole factor. You know me...I want to balance playoff classes as much as possible so that the 8 most competitive teams are in the top class. I don't want a situation where people could say that a team in one class was so good that they could have won the class above. I also want to try to avoid a situation where the least competitive teams in the top two classes would lose by first round blowout in the class immediately below it.
Qualification, classification, and seeding are unknowns at this point. I'd love to see a system that incorporates SOS and coaches' input in some way, and I think that's more easily accomplished with 50 football playing schools than with ten times that number. I know you don't like this, but I'm not against some sort of success factor. I'm against it in its current format within the IHSA because it discriminates between non-boundaried and boundaried schools. I'd be open to it in a NIPL context if it applied to all schools. Regular season record and enrollment are factors that ought to be heavily weighted relative to other factors.
The above is limited to an athletic association of private schools only. If you add all non-boundaried football playing public schools to that mix, there would be increased flexibility to expand the number of classes and/or the number of qualifiers in each class.
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