Interesting twist on Naperville C prayer controversy
- Thread starter eireog
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I get it - it's the law, but don't we have greater issues at our schools to concern ourselves with?
It was after a tough loss that ended the careers of many of these young men.
Mistake yes. Wrong? Up for debate.
Yes.
Coaches no.
Most schools should know this by now. And, should have the players decide among themselves who would lead them in a prayer before games if they would like to.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
Amazing what was written by Thomas Jefferson has been turned into a battle ground of ungodly structure.
The law states not to force any one to believe or practice a certain religion, however we should not prohibit anyone the free exercise to practice theirs... If we would follow the constitution as written we would have less problems today...
Amazing what was written by Thomas Jefferson has been turned into a battle ground of ungodly structure.
The law states not to force any one to believe or practice a certain religion, however we should not prohibit anyone the free exercise to practice theirs... If we would follow the constitution as written we would have less problems today...
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anon_4vszfu35bv677
Guest
Shep... So what would your opinion be if the coach led a prayer based on the Islam or Judaism? would you feel the same way?
Bingo. Let's read a bit from the Koran and see how people "approve".
When MC and SR play they say a prayer before the game as does BR when they play Marist. Then they go out to try to send the opposing plays to the hospital? Not very Christian.
All kidding aside this political correctness is getting way out of hand. But when two public schools play a moment of reflection may be more in order not a prayer.
PS Just got home from a wake of another firefighter at St. Rita’s. Another unnecessary tragedy. But I have to say thank you to St. Rita for what you do for fallen firefighters and police officers. They are a class act. Have actually go there one day for a football game.
All kidding aside this political correctness is getting way out of hand. But when two public schools play a moment of reflection may be more in order not a prayer.
PS Just got home from a wake of another firefighter at St. Rita’s. Another unnecessary tragedy. But I have to say thank you to St. Rita for what you do for fallen firefighters and police officers. They are a class act. Have actually go there one day for a football game.
I'm just glad our Congress and Supreme Court would never begin their sessions with a prayer by these ... people.
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
The United States is fundamentally a Christian country. I would venture to guess a vast majority of the students who attend our public schools are Christian. I would therefore think it would be appropriate to use Christian prayers when we are dealing with non-religious settings. If a school had predominantly Jewish or Islamic students I would have no problem them saying a prayer according to their beliefs. If I was living in a foreign country that was predominantly Jewish or Islamic and my athletes were of those faiths I most definitely would not say a Christian prayer before a game. Many prayers before games are very general asking God to look over us during the games or thoughts along those lines which I think all faiths can relate to. My issue is that because one or two people have a problem with something like this we create a law that adversely affects the majority. If an athlete doesn't like prayer before of after a game, he should get up and walk away, and if the coach doesn't accept that, then the coach has a problem that will be addressed by his bosses.
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anon_4vszfu35bv677
Guest
Morgs 81 - whydo you pray before a football game?
If you want to pray in private -- fine. But if you insist that group prayers be allowed, then you are forcing your religion on other people. Peer pressure on kids can be brutal.
Why not pray when you enter Walgreens? Why not pray when you pay a toll on I-294? Why not a group prayer before a movie? How about when you cut your grass?
The same can be said about the national anthem?
Why are Americans so hung up on phony patriotism?
Singing a song does not make you patriotic. Nor does making a pledge to a flag. You are patriotic when you are willing to do something difficult on behalf of the country.
I am a practicing member of a religion and I love my country. It pains me that people make shallow gestures supposedly on behalf of either
If you want to pray in private -- fine. But if you insist that group prayers be allowed, then you are forcing your religion on other people. Peer pressure on kids can be brutal.
Why not pray when you enter Walgreens? Why not pray when you pay a toll on I-294? Why not a group prayer before a movie? How about when you cut your grass?
The same can be said about the national anthem?
Why are Americans so hung up on phony patriotism?
Singing a song does not make you patriotic. Nor does making a pledge to a flag. You are patriotic when you are willing to do something difficult on behalf of the country.
I am a practicing member of a religion and I love my country. It pains me that people make shallow gestures supposedly on behalf of either
LWeastDad, You are probably correct. I would like to think part of my job as a coach is to help teach athletes how to stand up for things they believe in. Maybe a little altruistic but I firmly believe that a coach's job is more than teaching the game of football.
MC63, You bring up some good points, but I disagree with some of the things you stated. First I don't insist on making my athletes pray. When I say a prayer before a team, it me saying a quick 30 second prayer in front of the team. There is no pressure on my part to have them participate. You are correct about peer pressure so I try to eliminate that aspect as much as possible. You're questions about when and why I pray are interesting.
As an athlete and coach I don't ever recall praying or hearing a prayer as a group before another sporting event such as baseball, track, basketball or any other sport. Why before a football game then? I'm not sure. For me, it's just something I've always done. Maybe the chance of injury is a little greater than other sports. Bottom line is I feel better if I pray before a football game, and I truly believe a public prayer is not harming anyone, even an atheist. I especially like your point about the National Anthem. I've always hated that. I've always wondered why is it necessary. For some it may be phony like you say, but for others it is very heartfelt, and I don't see any negative in it. There have been some examples of athletes who have stood with their head down during the anthem because they don't believe in it which I respect. Granted these ate usually college or pro athletes, but I feel they are good examples for young people to show how to demonstrate your beliefs in a respectful and peaceful manner.
As an athlete and coach I don't ever recall praying or hearing a prayer as a group before another sporting event such as baseball, track, basketball or any other sport. Why before a football game then? I'm not sure. For me, it's just something I've always done. Maybe the chance of injury is a little greater than other sports. Bottom line is I feel better if I pray before a football game, and I truly believe a public prayer is not harming anyone, even an atheist. I especially like your point about the National Anthem. I've always hated that. I've always wondered why is it necessary. For some it may be phony like you say, but for others it is very heartfelt, and I don't see any negative in it. There have been some examples of athletes who have stood with their head down during the anthem because they don't believe in it which I respect. Granted these ate usually college or pro athletes, but I feel they are good examples for young people to show how to demonstrate your beliefs in a respectful and peaceful manner.
LWEDad:
I know where you are going with this and I agree: Had Judaism, Islam or any other assortment of "ism" been under scrutiny, to remain consistent, one should either support the right or oppose for any assortment of organized religion.
What I find troubling in this example is Hemant Mehta is actually not simply a "concerned citizen," but an activist pursuing a goal. I read the DH article and it states implicitly Mehta operates a blog, The Friendly Atheist, espousing his atheism; he has mixed with the likes of Stephen Dawkins at atheist roundtables; and when he uncovered what Stine had done, or may do regularly for this matter, he didn't take the incident to the Naperville district office but immediately contacted Freedom From Religion Foundation.
Someone with the breadth of experience Mehta has in this area wouldn't need any further clarification from an atheist organization unless Mehta either voiced his concerns to the Naperville district and they were ignored, which is unlikely, or Mehta's aim was to enhance his prestige among the atheist crowd and further his book sales.
I'm typically skeptical of the accuracy of Wikipedia, but I do use it for quick references when needed. I perused the entry for Mehta and it stated Mehta had planned a magnum opus titled God is an Abusive Boyfriend (and you should break up). Apparently, Mehta gutted the project because of negative publicity.
To further clarify my stance, had Mehta visited or been in the employ of, say, Niles North, and he had learned of a Jewish educator/coach leading prayer and had raised objections, I would defend his right to do so, but I would certainly define him as more of an agitator than a good citizen in face of what I recently learned about his role in the atheist community.
Mehta recently stepped down from his position as an educator to devote more time to his writing and activism. A telling professional move.
But it's ok to sing "GOD Bless America" at professional sporting events?
A prayer before a HS football game shouldn't be getting this kind of attention, IMO.
A prayer before a HS football game shouldn't be getting this kind of attention, IMO.
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anon_4vszfu35bv677
Guest
He didn't do this for constitutional purposes. He did it for self adulation, for personal game and pure agitation. Nothing more.
I guess the people here supporting coaches prayer would have no problem with this then
http://savannahnow.com/news/2015-09-02/video-shows-mass-baptism-georgia-high-school-football-field#
I could be called an atheist but have no problem if the kids want to pray on their own. Public school Coaches, teachers or admins being leaders should not be leading prayers while doing their duties.
http://savannahnow.com/news/2015-09-02/video-shows-mass-baptism-georgia-high-school-football-field#
I could be called an atheist but have no problem if the kids want to pray on their own. Public school Coaches, teachers or admins being leaders should not be leading prayers while doing their duties.
Boy, out of football season you knuckleheads carry on like a regular gentleman's roundtable.
I dropped into this thinking I would hear much screeching and grandstanding but no, actual respectful debate is going on. Cheers boys!
My two cents .... A kid is told to follow his coaches instructions without question. A public school is not the place to be instructing someone about religion. If a coach wants to say "everybody take a quiet moment and reflect" fine. It only crosses the line if and when you make it specific.
It always angered me when my coached asked us to bow and pray before a football game because I was in such a dark place before kick off, filled with rage and contempt for anything wearing the wrong color. It is such a dark, unholy place you need to go to to play football, I think coaches want to temper that with some counterbalance.
This guy is definitely an agitator and I'm kind of glad we have his background now.
I am concerned that had it been a family of different faith expressing concern, they would have been bullied and ostracized for reporting. Bullying people who have a legitimate right is never good and I fear that is what keeps people from making the complaint in the first place.
I have heard from some that expressing faith is an obligation. Well that is great coming from a 50 yr old man that sees how his life needed faith after a few years of hard partying. Most 17 year old lack the context so what's the point? If you feel strongly enough, there are plenty of schools at which it is fully appropriate.
My fave counterpoint is the "what if the coach asked them to kneel and face Mecca" angle. It stops the argument dead in its tracks.
I dropped into this thinking I would hear much screeching and grandstanding but no, actual respectful debate is going on. Cheers boys!
My two cents .... A kid is told to follow his coaches instructions without question. A public school is not the place to be instructing someone about religion. If a coach wants to say "everybody take a quiet moment and reflect" fine. It only crosses the line if and when you make it specific.
It always angered me when my coached asked us to bow and pray before a football game because I was in such a dark place before kick off, filled with rage and contempt for anything wearing the wrong color. It is such a dark, unholy place you need to go to to play football, I think coaches want to temper that with some counterbalance.
This guy is definitely an agitator and I'm kind of glad we have his background now.
I am concerned that had it been a family of different faith expressing concern, they would have been bullied and ostracized for reporting. Bullying people who have a legitimate right is never good and I fear that is what keeps people from making the complaint in the first place.
I have heard from some that expressing faith is an obligation. Well that is great coming from a 50 yr old man that sees how his life needed faith after a few years of hard partying. Most 17 year old lack the context so what's the point? If you feel strongly enough, there are plenty of schools at which it is fully appropriate.
My fave counterpoint is the "what if the coach asked them to kneel and face Mecca" angle. It stops the argument dead in its tracks.
I don't know. Everyone has their own line, but in this situation the line has been drawn for us as the law states that it is illegal to lead prayer in a public setting. My issue with this and other similar situations is we have created a society of extreme political correctness - if what we do bothers one person then we can't do it. I understand the counterpoint about how would I feel if an Islamic prayer was said before competition, but I still feel a non-denominational general prayer should be acceptable. I know this site is supposed to be about football but I thought the topic was pretty interesting. It's funny I was going to sign off saying "Have a Merry Christmas everyone", but then I thought should I say "Have a happy holiday." No sarcasm intended, but that's where our society is right now.
Sonap,
I guess if you're a pre-op transgender male that plays football, wants to use the girls locker room, and perhaps hold a dark mass to lucifer it's ok, and we the masses, are told we need to be tolerant of people that are different. But if I'm a Christian cis male I need to learn my spot in life and must sucomb to being hushed about my gender and religious dominance and not allowed to acknowledge either. I'm told we are becoming a more tolerant country...but I'm beginning to believe that the tolerance is far from universal. Let's all learn to respect and cherish one another rather than continue to cause unneeded rifts between people.
Oh and if we are going to really say NO religion on public school campus' then stop allowing churches to pay to use facilities for services, and stop teaching about world religions. Seems that it's ok to teach about all other religions in schools except for Judaism and Christianity. Seems a bit too PC for me.
I guess if you're a pre-op transgender male that plays football, wants to use the girls locker room, and perhaps hold a dark mass to lucifer it's ok, and we the masses, are told we need to be tolerant of people that are different. But if I'm a Christian cis male I need to learn my spot in life and must sucomb to being hushed about my gender and religious dominance and not allowed to acknowledge either. I'm told we are becoming a more tolerant country...but I'm beginning to believe that the tolerance is far from universal. Let's all learn to respect and cherish one another rather than continue to cause unneeded rifts between people.
Oh and if we are going to really say NO religion on public school campus' then stop allowing churches to pay to use facilities for services, and stop teaching about world religions. Seems that it's ok to teach about all other religions in schools except for Judaism and Christianity. Seems a bit too PC for me.
Whatever belief people have and it is not forced, then I would stick to the constitution.
It states everyone has a free right to believe in whatever religion they want. For those who don't believe any religion they should have the right to not participate. Don't know why people want to make this harder then it is.
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anon_4vszfu35bv677
Guest
Because Shep, there are too many people that would either passively or aggresively force their religious beliefs on others.
You see, this is where you lose people. Stop playing the martyr card and acting like you are being oppressed. No one is acting in "extreme political correctness" around here. Coach leading specific prayer not allowed because he is a controlling official acting in a leadership capacity. A kid can say a prayer or lead a prayer and nothing is wrong with that. Constitutionality is read and protected here.
The extreme political correctness is on your part by not just saying what you want to say...Merry Christmas. Stop worrying about what is right to say. Say whatever you want. Just stop acting like you are so oppressed.
Asking coaches in control of kids to refrain from leading prayer is not oppressive. It is common courtesy.
I'm not sure where in any of my posts I've stated that I feel oppressed. I most certainly don't. Playing the martyr card-again I'm not sure where that comes from, I certainly don't feel like a martyr. I was just stating my opinion on a subject. Interesting that I bring up a comment about saying Merry Christmas or Happy Holiday and you again feel that I say this because I'm oppressed. That is an interesting conclusion. Asking coaches to refrain from praying in front of kids is more than just common courtesy it is the law. I was enjoying the discussion on this matter until now. I like hearing different points of view. You concluded a lot from my posts which are simply untrue. That's why I refrain most of the time from participating in these discussions.
Being passive aggressive when taking a position always allows on to go back and say "who me? I never"
Just own it and be done with it.
Just own it and be done with it.
Come down off your cross and re read my post. No one has any problem with the kids praying together. The problem lies with a public school employee leading or organizing the prayer.
And one should know the difference between learning about religions and proselytizing about ones.
This country is becoming more tolerant. The problem lies with certain groups that are currently in the majority are having a problem that their views will be in the minority.
I must say I'm impressed with your ability to "read" people through a simple discussion.
Sonap,
He wasn't evangalizing the kids, they were simply kneeling. I'm not even a Stine fan but if the team decides they want to pray prior to or after a game let it be. This outrage is simply an Athiest or group of atheists enforcing their belief on the others, why should this be protected it's another form of religion or organized group evangalizing their beliefs and expecting us to be forced to believe their beliefs.
He wasn't evangalizing the kids, they were simply kneeling. I'm not even a Stine fan but if the team decides they want to pray prior to or after a game let it be. This outrage is simply an Athiest or group of atheists enforcing their belief on the others, why should this be protected it's another form of religion or organized group evangalizing their beliefs and expecting us to be forced to believe their beliefs.
If one were to say:
"Oh, dear Jesus keep us safe in today's game," that would be considered a prayer, because it invokes a deity.
But if you were to say:
"Oh, dear Obama, our earthly messiah, keep us safe in today's game," that would not be considered a prayer.
However, it is the atheist who is arguing that Jesus of Nazareth, the person, is a deity.
Merry Christmas.
"Oh, dear Jesus keep us safe in today's game," that would be considered a prayer, because it invokes a deity.
But if you were to say:
"Oh, dear Obama, our earthly messiah, keep us safe in today's game," that would not be considered a prayer.
However, it is the atheist who is arguing that Jesus of Nazareth, the person, is a deity.
Merry Christmas.
They were enforcing the First Amendment not their belief.
Just and FYI, Treaty of Tripoli (1797) ratified by President John Adams and US Congress unanimously (which sat many founding fathers) contained this language.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Happy Solstice Everyone.