Is this team allowed to compile moral victories?...

[the artist FKA zipp]

A semi-serious question after watching last nite's game.

Actual victories are likely to be few and far between. The Cuse game was played pretty hard by our guys, albeit with their typical deficiencies. I certainly didn't expect to win it, but we played well enough--comparatively speaking--to have deserved a win had they pulled it out.

I'm not ever much of a hater on coaches and players, nor do I wanna see us lose games to accelerate the inevitable (esp. when I have no confidence we won't continue to make questionable coaching hires). I'd like nothing better than Payne & Co staging a miraculous turnaround.

So what's an acceptable way to judge wins and losses in the meantime?...

 

[Tenncard_rivals]

Quantity of points IMO!

 

[earsky]

Short answer-yes
That was a decent Syracuse squad.

 

[PushupMan]

IMO, no to moral victories. I can be encouraged by two better than expected (at least in terms of betting line) performances in the last three, but the eventual bottom line is winning games.

As a coach, Kenny Payne has performed poorly enough in all aspects of coaching to this point to have earned his place on the proverbial hot seat. The only way to make that seat cooler is ACTUAL victories.

 

[glassmanJ]

the definition of coaching is making progress on your teams development. they played hard, was in the game the entire game, and almost won, that means KP is actually doing something good, ie coaching which many for some reason say he cannot do. because a month ago no one expected us to even compete or even win a game.

and btw, kp will not be fired for any reason until halfway thru year 2 if the team still is struggling. there's no fund to buy him out, there's no renegotiation, and it'd be the stupidest thing in the world to have another coach thrown at these kids. like a 6th new scheme in two years will make them better, lol

 

[OldhamCard335]

I have been one of the most critical of KP on this board and will most likely continue to be. That said, I did see some things I like last night. The team had a plan for Cuse and did a decent job of executing it, so much so that I began to believe we’ll do better against teams that zone us. I liked the way we rotated different guys into the middle of the zone…creative. I liked the way we passed the ball but most of the passes went in to out, away from the basket, but they were trying. I liked the shorter bench. Overall, I liked the effort. After the game KP said he doesn’t want the guys thinking too much while they are out there and I think that is a good sign, but I think the cause of all the thinking is KP himself.

We’re once again hearing talk of playing fast but I don’t really see it. Turnovers will keep us from ever playing fast. I really like the spark the team showed after the alley-oop to JJ in the first half. They jumped into a trap that resulted in another quick basket, but I have to believe that was player initiated.

Is this just another fluke game like WKU? Is Syracuse a bad team? Stay tuned, we’ll know more after the WF game. At least I’m. Interested in watching it.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

Some good responses, and I agree with most of them, I have a feeling this team will play more games like last nite. And I'm curious how they will be perceived.

Syracuse is/was a national brand although I'm not sure how much better they are than the earlier teams on our schedule that we played close. I'll start to think more positively if we play the remaining schedule more competitively than being down double digits at halftime every other game.

Payne detractors don't like this take. But as bad as we have played, I don't think you can simply judge this team at present by the number of wins. It will be significant progress, objectively speaking, if we can just compete for wins. I saw that last nite...

 

[shadow force]

The team did play better overall than I thought they would against Cuse. I thought they would look totally inept against the zone and get blown out by double digits.

They didn't and kept it close with a chance to win at the end. If this team had a decent ready PG they would have at least a couple more wins but they don't. They seem to play better against zones because it forces more passing which leads to more assists. Problem is they turn it over so much it negates the increased assist numbers.

That said even if they win a couple more it won't change my wanting a new coach. Finishing with 2 wins or even 5 or 6 just isn't good enough.

 

[LouisvilleKid79]

I agree with a lot of what’s already been said. I have never been a fan of moral victories and really do not want to start being a fan of them now. With that said, this team started the season so poorly that any incremental improvement looks really good.

There are still a lot of issues/deficiencies (inconsistency and turnovers being two of the major issues) with this team that I think can be attributed to several different things that have all been said before. First year head coach, bad roster and I don’t mean from an overall talent perspective… What does this team look like with a true PG and the Freshman being apart of a supporting cast (getting less minutes) and Sydney from last year? IMO, some of the inconsistency is due to our Freshmen being Freshmen and some of it is bad coaching.

It’s been mentioned and I agree that this team plays well against soft zones. Note to opposing coaches: don’t play a soft zone against this team. Side note: That is not a good Syracuse team.

Some of the biggest improvements I’ve seen over the last few games is the shorter rotation and that the team looks prepared to play. UK not so much but they settled down and looked solid during segments of that game. You can see the gameplan and that they are trying to execute it. Last night you could clearly see they were prepared to play against the zone. They had different guys flashing to the FT line and moved the ball well less a few missed and bad passes or decisions.

Wake Forest is another opportunity for a win. IMO, not as much as last night against Syracuse because Wake presents some other challenges but UofL should not be run off the floor by Wake.

I want to see a consistently competitive team that is trying to execute and “leave it all on the floor.” The wins will come when they cutdown their turnovers/value the ball and play consistent solid defense.

 

[jmac1029]

Syracuse is trash. We just happen to be the whole landfill.

 

[nccardfan]

A semi-serious question after watching last nite's game.

Actual victories are likely to be few and far between. The Cuse game was played pretty hard by our guys, albeit with their typical deficiencies. I certainly didn't expect to win it, but we played well enough--comparatively speaking--to have deserved a win had they pulled it out.

I'm not ever much of a hater on coaches and players, nor do I wanna see us lose games to accelerate the inevitable (esp. when I have no confidence we won't continue to make questionable coaching hires). I'd like nothing better than Payne & Co staging a miraculous turnaround.

So what's an acceptable way to judge wins and losses in the meantime?...

Short answer is yes to moral victories, however as you alluded to, there was definitely effort for the most part for most of the players albeit with their typical deficiencies or what I call tendencies. I really do think Ellis was going to pass however he didn't look up initially and was just going to try and get to the rim himself. I think the game where the clock ran out flashed into his head. The other situation was when we missed the chance to tie it up and should have immediately fouled. We let precious seconds go off the clock. When you keep repeating those mistakes, it will be hard to win close games. This was not a typical Boeheim Syracuse team. Once it got to within 1 or 2 points, if you think your team is making any progress or understanding the game, you have to believe they should win, at least I do. I would have felt better, if Ellis had made the pass to someone like James, and he just missed the shot, rather than seem like a circus...

I want to see more lineup or at least adjustment changes, i.e Withers not starting was one. Its obvious he wants to do what Jaelyn wants to do. I think every practice should be an audition for more or less playing time the next game. Does that make too much sense?

 

[Thecycle27]

That is a really good question and probably one that should have been asked at the beginning of the year.

My take away is they aren’t caving at the 1st sign of stress. To me that is big for this group. The NC State and KY game they got smoked in a 5 minute span. The rest of the game was pretty even. The only difference last night was Syracuse kept turning it over. Syracuse didn’t have the huge 5 minute spurt where the lead got up to 15-16.

I didn’t think they would be good at all this year. For me the most disappointing issue is their overall lack of effort-toughness. It is weird group of players. Curry, Withers and Wheeler look absolutely miserable. I know they want to win but question whether they are willing to do what it takes to win.

Last night they did everything they could do to win the game. They defended and shared the ball. If they continue to do that for the entire game they will be competitive. For this group that is the best we will get.

 

[achilles992000]

small amount of hope.

but i liked the pump fakes and the doubling of opponents on defense.
seems like opponents are having hard time with Mike James in the post/ down low. would like to see Withers at the 4 sometimes.
players need more swag.

 

[BPGhost]

the definition of coaching is making progress on your teams development. they played hard, was in the game the entire game, and almost won, that means KP is actually doing something good, ie coaching which many for some reason say he cannot do. because a month ago no one expected us to even compete or even win a game.

and btw, kp will not be fired for any reason until halfway thru year 2 if the team still is struggling. there's no fund to buy him out, there's no renegotiation, and it'd be the stupidest thing in the world to have another coach thrown at these kids. like a 6th new scheme in two years will make them better, lol

The definition of coaching is having a detailed plan on how to maximize the potential of each of your players both individually and, through the team construct. In order to do so, you need to be able to communicate those plans in a way that is understandable and repeatable for your players. This is regardless whether it’s the D1 or elementary school level.

Based upon watching this team play, it is clear that either there is no detailed plan, a lack of ability to communicate a plan or, both.

“Playing hard” or “competing” are not examples of good coaching at the D1 level. If you have to coach effort, then it’s on to the next player regardless of a talent disparity. This type of nonsense is what many of us were afraid of - bringing the ridiculous tail wags the dog type of culture that he learned from Fat Cal - where the players are elevated above the program and can then decide whether they want to pay attention or give effort and still get major clock.

 

[nccardfan]

I would like to ask this. Has anyone ever seen CKP with a clipboard in his hand drawing up a play? Have I missed that? Second question or maybe its a statement. I used to watch CRP on the sidelines all the time and there were times when the game was being played, he was over talking/coaching to a player that just came out of the game or was ready to go in. I just see CKP staring with a blank look on his face. Usually no conversation with the guy coming out... only frustration.

 

[2330859]

Excellent 3 point shooting percentage is the difference; regrettably 21 turnovers is almost impossible to overcome against any formidable opponent.

The kids do seem to be making a better effort on both ends.

 

[Morgantown Card]

Kenny PAYNE almost won that game!

 

[Knucklehank1]

We got smoked by UK, beat by double digits at NC State and lost to Lipscomb who just got beat by Liberty by 29 and lost to Stetson. At this point playing Syracuse close and beating WKU (who is on a 4 game losing streak) look like aberrations. String together some games where we have consistent effort and maybe look like a functional basketball team and perhaps I’ll perk up.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

I don't think even the optimists will debate that Payne has been a disappointment--by whatever degree you wanna criticize him. We were never sold on the fact he was going to be training on the job, and significantly so.

No one would have supported the hiring of that type of coaching candidate while paying him millions of dollars to learn and racking up embarrassing losses. But you can't go back and change history. The issue now is is he starting to improve as a coach and how fast? That's really what we should be basing future decisions on.

As unacceptable a job as Payne has done--along with the people who hired him--I'm gonna try to keep an open mind about his potential to fix this train wreck. Some/many don't agree with this logic, but much of my patience has to do with my almost complete lack of confidence in the people running U of L and their own "fixing" abilities.

If it looks like Payne can be rescued, I'll take my chances with him as opposed to falling back on U of L people who are consistently making bad decisions. Remember if you want Payne replaced, you're relying on incompetent people to do that successfully...

 

[BPGhost]

I don't think even the optimists will debate that Payne has been a disappointment--by whatever degree you wanna criticize him. We were never sold on the fact he was going to be training on the job, and significantly so.

No one would have supported the hiring of that type of coaching candidate while paying him millions of dollars to learn and racking up embarrassing losses. But you can't go back and change history. The issue now is is he starting to improve as a coach and how fast? That's really what we should be basing future decisions on.

As unacceptable a job as Payne has done--along with the people who hired him--I'm gonna try to keep an open mind about his potential to fix this train wreck. Some/many don't agree with this logic, but much of my patience has to do with my almost complete lack of confidence in the people running U of L and their own "fixing" abilities.

If it looks like Payne can be rescued, I'll take my chances with him as opposed to falling back on U of L people who are consistently making bad decisions. Remember if you want Payne replaced, you're relying on incompetent people to do that successfully...

You can say - and you do a lot - that the people (Heird) who hired Payne are incompetent and I will agree that the final decision was Heird’s BUT…

He was under enormous pressure from all the people who’ve been previously named to hire Payne and let’s don’t kid ourselves - most of that pressure was to hire an AA coach. He was in a completely unenviable position with this hire. Given a second hire - I think Heird hires someone that knows what he’s doing. - regardless of color.

I don’t believe that Heird is either incompetent or, part of the “clown show”.

 

[vivid_red]

I have read all the posts, agree with some, disagree with some. What I struggle with is, U of L settling for moral victories?? Our program is better than that.

 

[Cardiac Red]

This is UofL, there are NO moral victories ! Period. If Payne was any kind of coach he would've had these guys playing at the level they are now to begin the season. What was he doing, feeding Curry doughnuts during the off season ? He should've brought some point guards in through the portal. He should have some good high school players committed by now, he has nothing !! At some point when we keep losing the team is going to check out and things were going to be really ugly..

The only way he gets another year is if he goes on a streak and wins about 10 games in a row to close out the season. I have full confidence Josh Heird is capable of hiring a great coach and negotiating an exit for KP..

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood_rivals307205]

I don't believe in moral victories either. Maybe in a one off review in a normal season. So if you have a good team fall behind by 20, rally to take a lead, then get beat in OT or something you could say, "Hey those kids battled back and learned a lesson, come ready to play."

But for this team to already have so many losses, I just can't look at it and say "Hey they only lost by 1 point this game but then again they lost by 22 the game before so this is improvement."

I don't think they feel better with a close loss so don't think we should either.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

We can excuse this hiring decision were it not for the fact that U of L damn near universally makes bad hiring decisions at key positions. Sure we hired Jeff Brohm, but was there any real debate or uncertainty about making that hire? Give me that $6 million annually to work with, I would have offered and hired him myself.

Greg Postel, David Grissom, Vince Tyra, Chris Mack, Neely Bendapudi, and Scott Satterfield--if I have all of those names and spellings correct. It's a who's who of bad decision-making, with just about everyone else in their jobs still TBD.

And those people made enough money that no one person was responsible for hiring them. They were bad decisions shared by multiple people. When I see clear evidence that better hiring decisions are being made--that aren't as obvious as Brohm's--my analysis will change. (And that will likely sync up with improvement of our money problems as well...)

In the meantime, sorry if I'm reluctant to casually support new U of L hires to fix major problems.

 

[Cardiac Red]

Greg Postel, David Grissom, Vince Tyra, Chris Mack, Neely Bendapudi, and Scott Satterfield--if I have all of those names and spellings correct.

I'll give you posthole, gruesome, and Bendapuddy but Mack had us ranked number one in the country at one time and was doing fine until Bendapuddy back doored him, I'm pretty excited about Brohm but I was ok with Satterfield, we ended the season this year ranked number 22 and he had the best recruiting class we've ever had coming in next year.. Vince was nowhere near as bad as you make him out to be and I think everything he did was with what was best for UofL in mind...

All that said, I believe Josh Heird has what it takes to make a change and hire the right person. If he doesn't he'll never be respected around here and will be short term.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

All we have for people like the new Prez, Heird, and Payne is hope and prayer.

I'm sure not getting into a debate about Tyra. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. We could easily devote an entire thread to that clown...

 

[KerryRhodes]

You can say - and you do a lot - that the people (Heird) who hired Payne are incompetent and I will agree that the final decision was Heird’s BUT…

He was under enormous pressure from all the people who’ve been previously named to hire Payne and let’s don’t kid ourselves - most of that pressure was to hire an AA coach. He was in a completely unenviable position with this hire. Given a second hire - I think Heird hires someone that knows what he’s doing. - regardless of color.

I don’t believe that Heird is either incompetent or, part of the “clown show”.

Heird may have 'announced' the hiring, however im willing to believe he was ' forced ' to hire smiley errrrr payne.


There were plenty of Black Coaches with HC experience that could have been hired.

The hiring of payne will go down as the worst head coaching hire of ANY sport at UofL.

 

[2330859]

The absence of leadership at this beloved University is the root cause of the abysmal condition that we have right now.

I like to apply the principles of a “Y-Tree Investigation” when trying to identify the genesis of any problem. My own examination leads me to believe that our community and this University allowed outside influences to infiltrate the Board of Trustees, leading to some of the most destructive hires anyone could have made.

 

[Thecycle27]

I tend to agree but we assume there was a right coach to guide them through this mess. I really don’t think we understand how pissed off this fanbase was-is with the whole mess.

It started Pitinio-Petrino, then the Administration and then Mack. It was the whole basketball operation. No matter what side the fans were on they had a legit gripe. Fans were right to be pissed at Pitinio and Mack. Fans were right to be pissed at the Administration.

This year is the bottom of the pit. I think they start climbing out next year.

 

[Knucklehank1]

We got smoked by UK, beat by double digits at NC State and lost to Lipscomb who just got beat by Liberty by 29 and lost to Stetson. At this point playing Syracuse close and beating WKU (who is on a 4 game losing streak) look like aberrations. String together some games where we have consistent effort and maybe look like a functional basketball team and perhaps I’ll perk up.

Again, it looks like WKU and Cuse games are aberrations.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

Again, it looks like WKU and Cuse games are aberrations.

I'm not defending Payne, but there are enough examples of "aberrations" that suggests that's not the explanation. There have also been halves like today's second.

It's the same rationale I don't support that talent is the issue. This team has played well for sustained periods, but not nearly long enough and enough times to get results worth a damn. How Payne occasionally gets them to play well, I don't have a clue. But that's not an aberration; it's a coach who doesn't know what he's doing yet.

Will he ever know? I have no idea. But this team CAN play much better than they do on average or most of the time. Occasionally good results are not a fluke. There's something explaining all of this, we just don't know what it is...

 

[OldhamCard335]

Even very good teams throw in a clunker now and then. It would seem the opposite is true as well.