It's crazy how much Southern Miss got screwed by realignment

[QuaoarsKing]

Conference USA in 2004:

TCU - now in the Big 12
Louisville - now in the ACC
Cincinnati - now in the AAC (former Big East)
East Carolina - now in the AAC (former Big East)
Houston - now in the AAC (former Big East)
Memphis - now in the AAC (former Big East)
South Florida - now in the AAC (former Big East)
Tulane - now in the AAC (former Big East)
Army - now Independent
UAB
Southern Miss

This list doesn't include schools like SMU, Tulsa, and Central Florida, who didn't join CUSA until after 2004, but still wound up in the AAC. Had the 2004 version of CUSA stayed together, it would be almost as good as the ACC is today and would definitely be the strongest non-power conference.


Compare this to the 2014 Conference USA lineup, along with their 2004 conference:

UAB
Southern Miss
Marshall (MAC)
Louisiana Tech (WAC)
Rice (WAC)
Tulsa (WAC)
UTEP (WAC)
Middle Tennessee (Sun Belt)
North Texas (Sun Belt)
Florida Atlantic (independent transitioning from FCS to FBS)
Florida International (independent transitioning from FCS to FBS)
Western Kentucky (Gateway Conference - FCS)
Charlotte (didn't have football)
Old Dominion (didn't have football)
UT-San Antonio (didn't have football)

 

[Miss.Stake]

Or Terrible Management. Screwed or bad leadership USM never really had a chance*

 

[o_1984Dawg]

They were screwed when they were tagged with a directional name. That just kills your brand. They'd be better off in the long run if they changed it.

 

[Shmuley]

They had Normal School all to themselves. Go Norms!

 

[patdog]

Didn't seem to hurt SOUTH Florida, CENTRAL Florida or EAST Carolina too bad. They were screwed because they have no fans (not that a lot of the others that did make it to the AAC do either), they're in a small state, and their football program collapsed at the worst possible time (not that having a strong football program would have necessarily got them into the AAC, but not having one took away any slim chance they had).

 

[Arthur2478]

It's crazy how much Southern Miss got screwed by realignment

They didn't get screwed. They screwed themselves. Their fanbase is feeble and frugal and in turn their "leadership" allowed their non-revenue facilities to decay to embarrassing standards. Hell, I think their track team even had to run at a local high school for a few years because USM's track surface was so bad. They have no fans, no money, no television market and awful facilities. They offered nothing to expanding conferences and thus those conferences had no interest. They didn't get screwed, they allowed themselves to fall well behind a long list of more attractive candidates. SMTTT

 

[rabiddawg]

That didn't hurt USC, or Northwestern or Central Florida. USM is in the state it's in because of deplorable leadership. Southern has many attributes that would make it a great school. Close to coast, Gulf Shores, New Orleans,...Their leadership has handicapped them.

 

[codeDawg]

They offered nothing to expanding conferences and thus those conferences had no interest.

This more than anything. There is no reason for Southern to be part of the Big 5. They show no interest in investing in athletics at a level that on par with any of the other schools, so why should they reap any of the benefits?

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

USC and Northwestern aren't directional schools as they are both private.

 

[Irondawg]

TV markets is the killer and that's why tulane got the invite over USM. They have no fans and no TV market in a state where they are 3rd fiddle. If they had expanded the TV market radius to 100 miles or so they could count New Orleans and Mobile which would have helped.

The only thing none of us will know the answer to is if the AD could have found a way to get out during realignment. Offering to forfeit revenue sharing or something for a few years or who knows what else. But basically they are hosed now and the fact the once proud football program is in terrible shape isn't helping anything.

 

[Philly Dawg]

There just isn't enough population in the State of Mississippi to make another school in the state appealing to another conference. I don't believe that there is anything USM could have done.

 

[o_1984Dawg]

Knew this was coming. At least you didn't say USC and NW like the genius below.

Even by your own argument there's a difference in being Directional Florida and Directional Mississippi. They don't have a choice in their state. They have a choice in their name. Just because being in MS hurt them doesn't mean their directional name didn't too.

UCF's brand I definitely think is hurt by their name. USF too but to a lesser extent because of the strong regional identity of Southern Florida. ECU I don't think is a much stronger brand than USM, which is why they were one of the last ones in.

 

[patdog]

I don't care what you name the schools. The schools in Orlando and Tampa are going to be a lot more attractive then the one in Hattiesburg. Especially when the one in Hattiesburg isn't the "giant killer" it used to be 25-35 years ago. UCF and USF brands are hurt by Florida & Florida St., and to a lesser extent Miami. Even though the Florida market is huge, those schools are always going to control the vast majority of it.

 

[WayboDawg]

I always hear how USM's administration is terrible. Any specific examples?

Some examples I can think of are:
-Firing Bower instead of allowing him to resign
-Not hiring Fedora's OC after Fedora left
-Hiring Ellis Johnson
-Not trying hard enough to join the American Conference (ECU practically begged in a very public fashion)
-Public embarrassment when they accidentally lost accreditation about 10 years ago

 

[Shamoan]

looks like their AD dropped the ball. memphis paid to be a part of the AAC if i remember correctly. they couldnt get left out in the cold and they did exactly that.

 

[patdog]

Memphis left CUSA for the Big East, not the AAC. At the time, the Big East had just lost Syracuse and Pitt and were scrambling to replace them. Their basketball program got them the invitation more than anything.

Link

 

[57stratdawg]

Yeah I agree, Philly. Wasn't much they could do. Comes down to TV footprint which they have very little. Doesn't help that in the only other revenue producing sport, Basketball, they're terrible. They just don't bring much to the table in Today's big business world of College Athletics.

 

[Shamoan]

according to their wiki page, they have never been a part of the big east:

After decades of independence, the Memphis football program currently competes in Conference USA until 2013 at which time it will join the American Athletic. As of December 8, 2011, the team is currently under new head coach Justin Fuente who replaced Larry Porter.

and here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis_Tigers_football

Conference	The American
Past conferences	Mississippi Valley (1928–1934) SIAA (1935–1941) Missouri Valley (1968–1973) C-USA (1995–2013)

<tbody>
</tbody>

i think that they were doing their best to get in the big east, but that all collapsed on them and they were not able to get it done, although at one point, i think they thought it was a done deal.

the big east wiki site doesnt list them as an active member in anything, but then again, its wikipedia.

this suggests otherwise, but just now, i paused an aac graphic map on espnU of all the aac schools and it lists:

tulsa, smu, houston, tulane, memphis, usf, ucf, ecu, cincy, temple, and uconn, so who the hell knows....

obviously, this is a basketball map, but i couldnt find a football one

so what does this all mean?

the big east is the same thing as the aac. memphis accepted the invite to the big east which was to become effective during the 2013 season, but the big east separated for basketball only (apparently), allowing the aac to form with its new members starting during the 2013 season for football.
The old Big East Conference has a new name.
League commissioner Mike Aresco announced Wednesday the current Big East will be renamed the American Athletic Conference at the end of the 2012-13 athletic seasons. The University of Memphis moves from Conference USA to the AAC July 1, joining UConn, Rutgers, Temple, Cincinnati, Louisville, South Florida, Central Florida, SMU and Houston. UCF, SMU, Houston and Memphis will be the AAC’s newest members, all relocating from C-USA in July.
The Big East name will be retained by the league’s breakaway basketball schools, who have formed a conference of their own.
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/university-of-memphiss-new-league-to-become

technically we are both right, as memphis made plans in writing to join a conference called the big east, but that conference renamed itself the american athletic conference, so memphis will have never played a game under the banner of the big east. now, what i fail to understand at this point is given the map graphic above, how do these schools manage being called the big east for basketball? they claim the american conference in that as well.

big east football=defunct as of the end of the 2012 season
big east basketball=powerhouse turned weakling with the following schools:

Butler	0-0	0-0
Creighton	0-0	0-0
DePaul	0-0	0-0
Georgetown	0-0	0-0
Marquette	0-0	0-0
Providence	0-0	0-0
Seton Hall	0-0	0-0
St. John's	0-0	0-0
Villanova	0-0	0-0
Xavier	0-0	0-0

<tbody style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 11px; vertical-align: baseline; background: transparent;">
</tbody>

american athletic conference is where its at.

 

[GhostOfJackie]

Yeah I agree, Philly. Wasn't much they could do. Comes down to TV footprint which they have very little. Doesn't help that in the only other revenue producing sport, Basketball, they're terrible. They just don't bring much to the table in Today's big business world of College Athletics.

Wait wait wait.... basketball if one thing they are NOT terrible at.

In fact, it is the only thing associated with that University that has not been terrible and sub-par in the past few years. Well basketball and Polymer Science.

This is what absolutely blows my mind about Southern Miss. Their basketball arena is in absolute horrible condition. They upgrade (if you want to call it that) their baseball and football facilities, and leave basketball out to dry. They have not invested one penny in that arena since the late 90's and it shows. The only thing they have upgraded since the 90's is the breakaway rim. In fact, they are still using the same scoreboard that was installed in the early 90's. It reminds me of a smaller version of the old astrodome homerun scoreboard. Same graphics as they had in the early 90's and nobody even bothered to change it. Tindall comes and turns that program around and what do they offer to basketball. Still nothing. Glad i'm not them.

 

[patdog]

Technically, I'm still right. Memphis left CUSA for the Big East. There was no AAC at the time. And Memphis did not pay to join the Big East, as you claimed in your earlier post, which is the point I was making. At the time, the Big East needed big-time basketball schools to replace the hit they took when Pitt & Syracuse announced they were leaving for the AAC. See Pitino's quotes in the article linked below.

Link

 

[RebelBruiser]

Southern is where our two schools were be if we weren't charter SEC members.

It's not poor management. It's just that Mississippi is a state that brings minimal TV sets to the table.

Through the fortune of being in the SEC, our programs have built a larger, more dedicated following that would have both of our programs in better position if they blew up the whole system and started over with team selection top to bottom, but if neither program had been in the SEC, we would be no different than USM.

USM never had a shot at the AAC, because there was no reason for the AAC to pursue them. They couldn't have "managed" their way into the AAC, and they couldn't have even bought their way in.

 

[QuaoarsKing]

The Big East split into two conferences, the AAC and tthe Big East, in between the time of Memphis announcing a move to the conference and Memphis (and the rest) actually joining.

The Big East name was kept by the basketball only schools, who added a few more teams, and the football playing schools became the AAC.

 

[Gus Fring.sixpack]

Southern is where our two schools were be if we weren't charter SEC members.

It's not poor management. It's just that Mississippi is a state that brings minimal TV sets to the table.

Through the fortune of being in the SEC, our programs have built a larger, more dedicated following that would have both of our programs in better position if they blew up the whole system and started over with team selection top to bottom, but if neither program had been in the SEC, we would be no different than USM.

USM never had a shot at the AAC, because there was no reason for the AAC to pursue them. They couldn't have "managed" their way into the AAC, and they couldn't have even bought their way in.

Good post, Reb.

We have had poor leadership but we never had a chance once it became clear that TV markets were what was driving expansion. If realignment had occurred 10-15 years earlier before TV $$ was the name of the game and our program was at its height, I think things MAY have been different.

 

[Drebin]

Memphis was accepted by the Big East and joined that conference. They even painted Times Square blue for a day with Memphis logos to announce it. Shortly after they joined, many of the basketball only schools decided to leave and form their own conference. They wanted to take the Big East name and the Madison Square Garden tourney site with them, and they won. So, the Big East because the AAC and this new conference became the Big East.

 

[WayboDawg]

Good post, Reb.

We have had poor leadership but we never had a chance once it became clear that TV markets were what was driving expansion. If realignment had occurred 10-15 years earlier before TV $$ was the name of the game and our program was at its height, I think things MAY have been different.

Bull. Boise State got invited to the Big East, and consider their TV market. People tune in to Boise State because they win lots of games, and play interesting trick-play football. That's where USM falls short. They keep losing to crappy teams when they shouldn't. USM is USM's worst enemy.

 

[Gus Fring.sixpack]

What pisses us off is that it was never about "earning" it

-We went 59-27 against former members while they were in C-USA. And that doesn't include our history of beating Louisville, Memphis, ECU, and Tulane like a drum prior to 1996. We considered Louisville and ECU to be our "peers." We own a 41-19-1 record against those two teams (not including Louisville's three wins after leaving C-USA).

-Generally speaking, USM fans are happy for ECU. They earned it with solid on-field performance in football, a well-run athletic department, and a good fanbase. And while some of our fans delude themselves into thinking that Louisville became something that we could have, that is absurd. Louisville was a sleeping giant that has always had every resource it needed to be the juggernaut of an athletic department that it has become. Simply put, we can accept those two.

-All of the others who left: That's a sore subject for us. I saw some people mention attendance. Try again. Aside from the above two, UCF was the only former member who regularly averaged more fans than we did. Cincinnati and Memphis at least had basketball but when you start talking about Houston, SMU, UCF, Houston, and Tulane...it is tough to feel like they "earned it" over us in any way, shape, or form.

-It all came down to TV markets. I think it is comforting for our fans to think that there's something that we could have done to move up. If there was something we COULD have done, that means that there is something that we CAN do (i.e. still hope) The fact of the matter is that short of a Boise State-esque run, there's never been anything we could do on the field. That never mattered. Fan support never even mattered.

-Poor leadership: We've had horrible leadership but it didn't matter. Giannini was a terrible AD but there was nothing that he could have done to get us into another conference.

 

[WayboDawg]

-We went 59-27 against former members while they were in C-USA. And that doesn't include our history of beating Louisville, Memphis, ECU, and Tulane like a drum prior to 1996. We considered Louisville and ECU to be our "peers." We own a 41-19-1 record against those two teams (not including Louisville's three wins after leaving C-USA).

-Generally speaking, USM fans are happy for ECU. They earned it with solid on-field performance in football, a well-run athletic department, and a good fanbase. And while some of our fans delude themselves into thinking that Louisville became something that we could have, that is absurd. Louisville was a sleeping giant that has always had every resource it needed to be a national powerhouse. Simply put, we can accept those two.

-All of the others who left: That's a sore subject for us. I saw some people mention attendance. Try again. Aside from the above two, UCF was the only former member who regularly averaged more fans than we did. Cincinnati, USF, Houston, etc.: They all had worse attendance than we did prior to leaving the conference. Cincinnati and Memphis at least had basketball but when you start talking about Houston, SMU, UCF, Houston, and Tulane...it is tough to feel like they "earned" it in any way, shape, or form.

-It all came down to TV markets. I think it is comforting for our fans to think that there's something that we could have done to move up. If there was something we COULD have done, that means that there is something that we CAN do (i.e. still hope) The fact of the matter is that short of a Boise State-esque run, there's never been anything we could do on the field. That never mattered. Fan support never even mattered.

-Poor leadership: We've had horrible leadership but it didn't matter. Giannini was a terrible AD but there was nothing that he could have done to get us into another conference.

USM loses a lot of sympathy in my book when you consider how often they went 6-6 instead of 10-2 in C-USA. There is no excuse for losing to Memphis, Cincinnati, and Houston on a regular basis. Aside from a Nebraska or Alabama loss, there is no reason for losing that many games each year in an inferior conference. Mediocre doesn't earn big conference invites. Louisville hit their stride at just the right time during conference expansion, and were thoroughly dominating C-USA up until they left for the Big East. Southern Miss was busy beating their chests about break-even seasons and New Orleans Bowl invites during that time. No wonder the Big East wouldn't take them seriously.

 

[Gus Fring.sixpack]

USM loses a lot of sympathy in my book when you consider how often they went 6-6 instead of 10-2 in C-USA. There is no excuse for losing to Memphis, Cincinnati, and Houston on a regular basis. Aside from a Nebraska or Alabama loss, there is no reason for losing that many games each year in an inferior conference. Mediocre doesn't earn big conference invites. Louisville hit their stride at just the right time during conference expansion, and were thoroughly dominating C-USA up until they left for the Big East. Southern Miss was busy beating their chests about break-even seasons and New Orleans Bowl invites during that time. No wonder the Big East wouldn't take them seriously.

We underachieved from 2000-on. CONTEXT: I am comparing us to the teams that were taken ahead of us. Saying those teams are ****** and we should have done a better job of beating them more often doesn't really refute my argument. Even at our most mediocre, we were still more successful than those programs.

-You obviously completely skipped over the entire paragraph where I talked about how ECU and Louisville earned it over us.

-Beating our chests about break-even seasons? You mean the kind of season that Jeff Bower got canned for?

 

[johnson86-1]

Bull. Boise State got invited to the Big East, and consider their TV market. People tune in to Boise State because they win lots of games, and play interesting trick-play football. That's where USM falls short. They keep losing to crappy teams when they shouldn't. USM is USM's worst enemy.

Idaho has over 1.5M people and Boise is the premier in-state program. Mississippi has under 3M and USM may not even have the majority of tv sets in the city its located in. Even accounting for how much more football crazy people in the South are, Boise St. comes out well ahead on TV share.

And Boise St was still fortunate that it happened to be having an incredible stretch of football success when alignment was taking place, so that they had some national recognition. Even then, they were a marginal take and would have been left out if there were other good options. Even if USM was coming off 5 straight ten win seasons in the CUSA, I'm not sure it would have made them attractive enough considering they still would have probably been competing with BAma and LSU for a share of the 1/3 or less of the college football watching population in Mississippi that is not a State or UM fan.

 

[WayboDawg]

We underachieved from 2000-on. CONTEXT: I am comparing us to the teams that were taken ahead of us. Saying those teams are ****** and we should have done a better job of beating them more often doesn't really refute my argument. Even at our most mediocre, we were still more successful than those programs.

-You obviously completely skipped over the entire paragraph where I talked about how ECU and Louisville earned it over us.

-Beating our chests about break-even seasons? You mean the kind of season that Jeff Bower got canned for?

Winning a few more games than SMU and UCF doesn't put you head and shoulders above them. If say, USM had won 11 games a year for 5 years, then that argument could be made. The fact is that USM was mediocre on the winning side after the year 2000, and they didn't have anything else to stand on (e.g. TV Market/Academics/Large Endowment), so they didn't get picked.

Jeff Bower was fired 17 seasons into his tenure at USM. How long does it really take to figure out a guy has lost his edge? Bower was kept around because he was "good enough". The "good enough" mentality is what led to the slow decline of USM's program.

 

[Shamoan]

that is true, but they never were a member of the big east (im not implying that you said they were, merely reiterating this fact)...ie, they were scheduled to join for the 2013 seasons, but before those seasons began, they changed their name to the aac.

the big east is the aac as of 2013. they dont claim to have ever been a member of the big east, they do however claim the aac. im not trying to call you out or discredit you, but the aac and big east are the same thing in football. the big east is strictly a basketball conference now. they left for the big east but before playing a single game under the big east mantle, the big east changed to the aac for football and the big east dissolved all football operations.

its a technicality, but you are correct depending on your perspective. again, im not trying to call you out, as most of this was a learning process for me. as far as them paying to get in, i said "if i recall correctly" implying that i may not recall correctly. hardly a claim. i do (having been a memphian for a few years) know that memphis was desperately seeking realignment with other conferences to the tune of paying conferences to accept them. whether or not that deal went through is not clear, however, here are some of the details:

It's an open secret since Memphis hired former Big East commissioner Mike Tranghese as a "consultant" last fall that the Tigers are angling for membership in one of the "Big Six" BCS conferences, mostly as a home for a powerhouse basketball program that's far outclassed its Conference USA rivals since Louisville and Cincinnati bolted for the Big East six years ago. The connection to that effort wasn't as obvious when Memphis-based FedEx, led by superfan Fred Smith, pulled its longstanding sponsorship from the Orange Bowl earlier this year. But it could become clear enough soon if Smith is able to use that cash to literallypay the Tigers' way into a bigger conference:

FedEx CEO Fred Smith has spoken to various conference officials and made it known that his Memphis-based company could provide millions of dollars -- perhaps as much as $10 million annually -- to a BCS-affiliated league willing to offer an invitation to the University of Memphis, multiple sources close to the Memphis program have told CBSSports.com.
"It could be $10 million every year for a conference to use however it sees fit," said one of the sources, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "When you think of the big picture, it could be the equivalent of a five-year, $50 million contract or a 10-year, $100-million contract. Fred is talking about a massive amount of money."
[...]



​

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/footba...illions-to-buy-Memphis-a-bet?urn=ncaaf,247948

point is, yes they left for the big east, but never became a member of the big east, as the big east changed their name to the aac. im not sure why issue was taken on that statement anyway as memphis was never a member of the big east. seems like splitting hairs, but whatever.

 

[Talty]

I was talking to someone earlier this week that Southern Miss is probably the biggest loser to date in conference realignment. On the flip side, few have been as fortunate as Louisville.

I'm sure there was some mishandling of opportunities, but in the end I think USM's poor TV market is what doomed it.

 

[Hammer Down]

They didn't get screwed. They screwed themselves. Their fanbase is feeble and frugal and in turn their "leadership" allowed their non-revenue facilities to decay to embarrassing standards. Hell, I think their track team even had to run at a local high school for a few years because USM's track surface was so bad. They have no fans, no money, no television market and awful facilities. They offered nothing to expanding conferences and thus those conferences had no interest. They didn't get screwed, they allowed themselves to fall well behind a long list of more attractive candidates. SMTTT

Agree with this 1000%. Fans, money and resources are what makes teams attractive to conferences. That is true in 1964 and 2014. Southern Miss had their chance because of their winning tradition back in the day but they did not take advantage. They simply had too small of a following to be considered a big boy. Even though they may have beaten MSU and Ole Miss, the latter 2 schools were simply more popular. That's it.

Everyone can get screwed in business. It's up to you to make your own luck.

 

[was21]

My wife loves cheese and wine

 

[RebelBruiser]

I was talking to someone earlier this week that Southern Miss is probably the biggest loser to date in conference realignment. On the flip side, few have been as fortunate as Louisville.

I'm sure there was some mishandling of opportunities, but in the end I think USM's poor TV market is what doomed it.

You're right on this. Louisville seems like they can't make a wrong move.

Even when it looked like they missed the boat on getting that last Big 12 invite, the one WVU got, they ended up having to "settle" for an ACC bid the very next year. The ACC is a much better fit for Louisville in terms of both football and basketball, and they were even lucky when they were passed over for WVU.

They did do a lot right though too. When they were seen as a basketball school in a major city, they saw the future and essentially stole the money they would normally put into basketball and threw it big time into football. It paid off in a big way.

Lots of Memphis fans see themselves as having been on equal or better footing 10-15 years ago. They point to a time when Memphis went to Louisville and beat them by about 30 under Tommy West. Back then, they were at least equal in basketball and football. Both were urban centered, commuter schools. The difference is Louisville threw a lot into football to build a new stadium, hire legitimate coaches. Memphis had Calipari in place, and Calipari demanded all the funding for his program while shorting football. RC Johnson went along with it for fear of losing Calipari.

They still lost Calipari to a better job, though they did manage to hold him a few years longer than they would have otherwise, but the end result was that Louisville left Memphis in its dust. As a Memphis hater, I thank Calipari to this day for ruining Memphis's one shot at the big time.