Just my 2 cents

[ref2]

Do the coaches know the rules ? No, they EXPECT us to.

Should the coaches know the rules ? Yes , it would lead to far fewer "Discussions"

Should we know the rules ? Yes, of course.

Should a 3 year official who has officiated a handful of varsity games let alone NO playoff games, lambaste veteran officials, for making a mistake? I would hope not. Let he who has not sinned be the first to cast a stone.

Is this the first time a rule was improperly enforced ? Will it be the Last ? NO.

Would I like it to be ? Yes

Mistakes in enforcement happen at every level.

Has every poster on this board never suffered from a brain cramp? I would bet if I asked your bosses at work I think I would get the answer to this.

 

[NNFAN]

and may I add... We need more qualified officials at the high school level in several sports. The pay is lousy and everybody screams at you, somebody is always mad at you about something. A thankless job... I don't see the folks the most critical on this board signing up. And don't get me started on little league parents who threaten 14 year old umpires.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

Do the coaches know the rules ? No, they EXPECT us to.

Should the coaches know the rules ? Yes , it would lead to far fewer "Discussions"

Should we know the rules ? Yes, of course.

Should a 3 year official who has officiated a handful of varsity games let alone NO playoff games, lambaste veteran officials, for making a mistake? I would hope not. Let he who has not sinned be the first to cast a stone.

Is this the first time a rule was improperly enforced ? Will it be the Last ? NO.

Would I like it to be ? Yes

Mistakes in enforcement happen at every level.

Has every poster on this board never suffered from a brain cramp? I would bet if I asked your bosses at work I think I would get the answer to this.

Thank you Ref2. You always provide proper perspective.

 

[BallHog85]

Do the coaches know the rules ? No, they EXPECT us to.

Should the coaches know the rules ? Yes , it would lead to far fewer "Discussions"

Should we know the rules ? Yes, of course.

Should a 3 year official who has officiated a handful of varsity games let alone NO playoff games, lambaste veteran officials, for making a mistake? I would hope not. Let he who has not sinned be the first to cast a stone.

Is this the first time a rule was improperly enforced ? Will it be the Last ? NO.

Would I like it to be ? Yes

Mistakes in enforcement happen at every level.

Has every poster on this board never suffered from a brain cramp? I would bet if I asked your bosses at work I think I would get the answer to this.

The more damning part is 5 ref's had a brain cramp over the course of 10 minutes. The outcome is the outcome though. Nothing can change it. I just don't buy the excuse that refs are human to not improve the process. This is similar to an aircraft accident in that it took an incredibly unlikely series of events happening in succession to occur. But when those accidents occur, the NTSB and FAA investigate the **** out of them and always recommend some tweaks to procedure, sometimes incredibly minor, that over the course of the years has made air travel incredibly safe. Hopefully we get some rule updates, either in NFHS or to IHSA bylaws, to make a situation like this less likely to occur.

 

[PRokie]

Do the coaches know the rules ? No, they EXPECT us to.

Should the coaches know the rules ? Yes , it would lead to far fewer "Discussions"

Should we know the rules ? Yes, of course.

Should a 3 year official who has officiated a handful of varsity games let alone NO playoff games, lambaste veteran officials, for making a mistake? I would hope not. Let he who has not sinned be the first to cast a stone.

Is this the first time a rule was improperly enforced ? Will it be the Last ? NO.

Would I like it to be ? Yes

Mistakes in enforcement happen at every level.

Has every poster on this board never suffered from a brain cramp? I would bet if I asked your bosses at work I think I would get the answer to this.

Boy you said it right!!!

A lot of self proclaimed experts with zero experience attempting to put their worlds woes on 5 guys.

The coaching staff should be forced to pass the same exams you do.

I also believe every high school head coach should attend at least 1 officials clinic per year. Just like concussion protocol etc.

 

[Corey90]

Do the coaches know the rules ? No, they EXPECT us to.

Should the coaches know the rules ? Yes , it would lead to far fewer "Discussions"

Should we know the rules ? Yes, of course.

Should a 3 year official who has officiated a handful of varsity games let alone NO playoff games, lambaste veteran officials, for making a mistake? I would hope not. Let he who has not sinned be the first to cast a stone.

Is this the first time a rule was improperly enforced ? Will it be the Last ? NO.

Would I like it to be ? Yes

Mistakes in enforcement happen at every level.

Has every poster on this board never suffered from a brain cramp? I would bet if I asked your bosses at work I think I would get the answer to this.

Great post! 100% agree. It's a thankless job and then people want to hang them for making a mistake. Some even suggested they be fired.
Please!!!

 

[RetiredReferee]

The more damning part is 5 ref's had a brain cramp over the course of 10 minutes.

I really think they had a general idea of the rule and talked themselves out of it. They probably even thought of the CMU game, and couldn't remember if it was just a college rule or if it was a federation rule.

Pressure packed situation. Doesn't necessarily excuse what happened, just probably explains what happened.

 

[tfsfan]

Thank you Ref2. You always provide proper perspective.

Lwest dad may remember me, I contacted him a couple years back about being a SFDS grad. Read the boards especially during playoffs. But hardly ever post.
I know this has been talked to death already but this whole PN/Fenwick thing reminds of something that happened to me about 40 years ago. I was in a chess tournament that covered 24 games when the tourney was over I was in first and awarded the trophy. Before I left I went up to take a photo of the tote board showing the results of every match, it was then I noticed in game 9 I was awarded 1 point for a win, however I remembered the game ending in a draw which should should have resulted in a half of point.
No one had noticed this, I approached the tourney director immediately about the mistake. The bottom line it dropped me back into a tie for first, the player I ended tied with, he and I played to a draw in our match. The next criteria was total wins, his overall 16w6land 2draws, mine was 15w5l and 4 draws. Both of ended up with 34pts but he was declared winner,
I just couldn't walk out of there knowing I won on a mistake.
I guess everyone gets my point, PN thru not fault of theirs should have vacated the victory in my mind. I can't verify this but I would have bet if the situation was reversed Fenwick would have vacated, at least thats my feeling.
King Murph

 

[HillRock86]

Do the coaches know the rules ? No, they EXPECT us to.

Should the coaches know the rules ? Yes , it would lead to far fewer "Discussions"

Should we know the rules ? Yes, of course.

Should a 3 year official who has officiated a handful of varsity games let alone NO playoff games, lambaste veteran officials, for making a mistake? I would hope not. Let he who has not sinned be the first to cast a stone.

Is this the first time a rule was improperly enforced ? Will it be the Last ? NO.

Would I like it to be ? Yes

Mistakes in enforcement happen at every level.

Has every poster on this board never suffered from a brain cramp? I would bet if I asked your bosses at work I think I would get the answer to this.

How come no one in that officiating crew carried a rule book? Wouldn't that have solved the problem? Seems like a mistake that could have easily been avoided. Same scenario occurred about six weeks earlier in a college game, and it was well publicized. That thought didn't run through the minds of those officials at that Fenwick game? I'm happy to cut refs slack on judgment calls, but this screw up should not have happened. Too much at stake here. Should have taken the time to make sure it was the correct call. This was a veteran crew after all.

 

[RetiredReferee]

I'm trying to picture the scene of 5 referees thumbing through a rule book on the field. I don't:

A. Think that inspires confidence
B. Is a reasonable solution


Bet your bottom dollar situations like this are part of a lot of pregames next season.

 

[HillRock86]

Let's say some weird rules scenario comes up during one of the championship games this weekend. I don't know what it could be, but let's say it does. Do you mean to tell me that it would not be worth checking the book out to see if you got it right? That's stupid thinking. Better to be right. I'd have more confidence in a group of officials who checked to make sure they got it right than in a group who merely guessed at it and got it wrong. So much at stake. Probably could have pulled it up on their phones using Google. Why is it such a stretch to try to get this stuff right? Or are you guys more worried about how you look? That is what your post seems to imply.

 

[RetiredReferee]

Let's say some weird rules scenario comes up during one of the championship games this weekend. I don't know what it could be, but let's say it does. Do you mean to tell me that it would not be worth checking the book out to see if you got it right? That's stupid thinking. Better to be right. I'd have more confidence in a group of officials who checked to make sure they got it right than in a group who merely guessed at it and got it wrong. So much at stake. Probably could have pulled it up on their phones using Google. Why is it such a stretch to try to get this stuff right? Or are you guys more worried about how you look? That is what your post seems to imply.

My apologies if my post seems vague. Of course I want to get it right. Of course I want my crew to get it right. Bringing a book on the field, to me, just seems amateur. Getting it right means a lot of things to different people, and while I can't speak to other crews (though I imagine the gentleman who started this thread may agree), but to us it looks like:
-constant communication
-good pregames
-mechanics
-review of rules
-clinics every year
-test prep
-association meetings
-scouting (which I use this board for)
-talking with other crews/refs

And importantly
-looking the part, which isn't helped by having to panic with a book in the back pocket.

I refer to my first post in this thread as to what I think happened last Saturday.

Also: if anyone had a cellphone on them during a game, I wouldn't work with them.

 

[BallHog85]

I think what happened is more damaging to confidence in the officials than pulling out a rule book ever would be. Better to get it right, even if it requires growing some thicker skin on the optics.

Also, I've got to disagree on the cell phone part. When I coached it stayed in my pocket on airplane mode. Reason being is that it's a $600 device, and on game day, I'm trying to reduce the variables on things I had to keep track of. My left pocket is where it lives 99% of the time I'm not at home, so it just stayed there for consistency and peace of mind. Not once was it ever a distraction. Now if there was a searchable rule book app that worked without Internet while on airplane mode, that phone is now a very valuable tool. It would have taken 1 ref just a couple minutes to search some relevant terms and get the rule pulled up. There's needs to be a rule application challenge process wherein the ref can whip out the book or phone and look this stuff up.

 

[tfsfan]

no one seems to be talking about PLN vacating. Everyone is hung up about the referees, the IHSA and such. Simple ? should PLN (giving the circumstances vacated the victory?). To me this is the crux of the matter.

 

[Cross Bones]

no one seems to be talking about PLN vacating. Everyone is hung up about the referees, the IHSA and such. Simple ? should PLN (giving the circumstances vacated the victory?). To me this is the crux of the matter.

Only if Fenwick agreed to give PFN the 7 points from the blown TD call. Agreed?

 

[downersdad]

I'm trying to picture the scene of 5 referees thumbing through a rule book on the field. I don't:

A. Think that inspires confidence
B. Is a reasonable solution


Bet your bottom dollar situations like this are part of a lot of pregames next season.

I was told yesterday by a seasoned IHSA basketball ref that refs are Not allowed to carry rule books on them when officiating. Is this correct?

 

[ref2]

Carrying a rule book on the field is considered amateurish , Some of you think "Great they are looking up the rule" . The vast majority would think "These guys don't know the rules, they have to look it up"

As far as the phone is concerned. You can download the rule book for your iBook app or your Kindle reader for only $5.99. In which I have. One down load does to both my iPhone and iPad.. Doe this for the other sports I officiate in also. It has searchable tools in it. Lets say I want to look up illegal participation. Type that in and right to the rules.

We are encouraged to NOT have our phones with us while on the field.

Will any of this change in the future? I don't know, it might now with what has happened.

I have and always will stay out of the debate on whether PN should or should not vacate. Same with Fenwick.

 

[downersdad]

Carrying a rule book on the field is considered amateurish , Some of you think "Great they are looking up the rule" . The vast majority would think "These guys don't know the rules, they have to look it up"

As far as the phone is concerned. You can download the rule book for your iBook app or your Kindle reader for only $5.99. In which I have. One down load does to both my iPhone and iPad.. Doe this for the other sports I officiate in also. It has searchable tools in it. Lets say I want to look up illegal participation. Type that in and right to the rules.

We are encouraged to NOT have our phones with us while on the field.

Will any of this change in the future? I don't know, it might now with what has happened.

I have and always will stay out of the debate on whether PN should or should not vacate. Same with Fenwick.

Exactly,what he said. Confidence certainly gets thrown out the window when the wrong call is made at a pivotal time in a pivotal game. I think fenwick and PN would not have minded a time out to review a rule book on a phone. I think playoff games need a different set of ground rules for IHSA officiating due to the "one and done" nature of the outcomes.

 

[eireog]

Do the coaches know the rules ? No, they EXPECT us to.

Should the coaches know the rules ? Yes , it would lead to far fewer "Discussions"

Should we know the rules ? Yes, of course.

Should a 3 year official who has officiated a handful of varsity games let alone NO playoff games, lambaste veteran officials, for making a mistake? I would hope not. Let he who has not sinned be the first to cast a stone.

Is this the first time a rule was improperly enforced ? Will it be the Last ? NO.

Would I like it to be ? Yes

Mistakes in enforcement happen at every level.

Has every poster on this board never suffered from a brain cramp? I would bet if I asked your bosses at work I think I would get the answer to this.

I honestly don't expect the refs or coaches to know every single rule in the rule book. I'm not sure if that person exists in any level of football. I do think its a good idea that the refs or the home team have a copy of the rule book available to reference in situations like the one in the PN/Fenwick game.

I also believe that there may be situations in the future where a rule is mistakenly applied or interperted. In situations where a mistake has been made the IHSA should have a grievance or protest process in place to correct that.

 

[BallHog85]

I honestly don't expect the refs or coaches to know every single rule in the rule book. I'm not sure if that person exists in any level of football. I do think its a good idea that the refs or the home team have a copy of the rule book available to reference in situations like the one in the PN/Fenwick game.

I also believe that there may be situations in the future where a rule is mistakenly applied or interperted. In situations where a mistake has been made the IHSA should have a grievance or protest process in place to correct that.

100% agree with this. I wouldn't even had expected them to know this one but for the fact that it had already happened this year on a bigger, more public stage, that was thoroughly covered for a week afterwards. Somewhere along the line, there was a failure to communicate/clarify from the association down to the refs when CMU/OSU happened. Even there, it seemed like Mike Gundy had a clearly outlined process to inform the referees of the rule and protest the play. It appears there's no formal process to do this in HS ball, which needs to change in my opinion.

 

[CGsupporter]

100% agree with this. I wouldn't even had expected them to know this one but for the fact that it had already happened this year on a bigger, more public stage, that was thoroughly covered for a week afterwards. Somewhere along the line, there was a failure to communicate/clarify from the association down to the refs when CMU/OSU happened. Even there, it seemed like Mike Gundy had a clearly outlined process to inform the referees of the rule and protest the play. It appears there's no formal process to do this in HS ball, which needs to change in my opinion.

The refs on the board can comment, but my understanding is every ref was reminded of the rule by the IHSA after the CMU/OSU situation occurred.

 

[Shmebulock]

The refs on the board can comment, but my understanding is every ref was reminded of the rule by the IHSA after the CMU/OSU situation occurred.

Funny because this week was the first I've heard about the CMU/OSU situation. I don't watch much NCAA football, no time. I must have missed the reminder. I could also care less about NCAA rules because I no longer work that level.

 

[BallHog85]

Funny because this week was the first I've heard about the CMU/OSU situation. I don't watch much NCAA football, no time. I must have missed the reminder. I could also care less about NCAA rules because I no longer work that level.

It's not that you need to care or watch football at another level. But I would expect that to prompt the referee's association/IHSA to send out a rule clarification for the high school level, and for refs to be diligently reading them. I get various newsletters in my industry, even within my company that clarify existing policies and inform us of new ones. I'm certainly aware of high profile gaffes from other companies, mostly as a learning tool and check on what I'm doing. I don't know why officiating would be any different.

 

[Shmebulock]

It's not that you need to care or watch football at another level. But I would expect that to prompt the referee's association/IHSA to send out a rule clarification for the high school level, and for refs to be diligently reading them. I get various newsletters in my industry, even within my company that clarify existing policies and inform us of new ones. I'm certainly aware of high profile gaffes from other companies, mostly as a learning tool and check on what I'm doing. I don't know why officiating would be any different.

I'm sure a lot of folks will learn from this mistake, which is all anyone can really ask for. Mistakes happen every week at every level. If we sit around waiting for the industry newsletter on what not to do, no games will ever get played (or at least officiated).

 

[BallHog85]

I'm sure a lot of folks will learn from this mistake, which is all anyone can really ask for. Mistakes happen every week at every level. If we sit around waiting for the industry newsletter on what not to do, no games will ever get played (or at least officiated).

Lol I'm clearly not asking for you to wait for one to be sent. I'm asking for one to be sent and read during the week. Obviously people didn't learn from the first time the mistake was made. I'm hoping the IHSA will ensure it doesn't happen a third time, or for the first time in some other way.

Edit: also the idea that we just sit around and continue doing the same thing because refs are human and mistakes will happen is just asinine. Saying "people will learn" without reforming process and procedure is clearly BS, because this already happened earlier this year and no one learned. And I'm really steamed at the implication that we can't play games until a newsletter comes out. If you're a ref, you're being paid. Act like a professional, don't make excuses for why you can't learn more about the game, particularly when it takes a 10 minute perusal prior to your weekend. It's not asking much, and if you love the game and kids as much as you say you do, it should actually be enjoyable. And don't make excuses for not pulling out a rule book. Conferencing for 10 minutes and getting a call wrong already made this crew look like a clown show. For God's sake, whipping out a rule book when the officiating is clearly conferencing because they're unsure how to handle something is the least worst option. I'm not asking for mistakes to never happen. I'm asking that mistakes of these magnitude and lack of procedural (not Bing bang boom judgment calls) knowledge never happen again. There may not be mechanisms to prevent a bad PI or holding call, but there are damn sure mechanisms to prevent this.

Edit 2: rant over

 

[Doctor_D]

There was a rumor that the 5 were not in agreement on the untimed down.
I don't want to see officials pull out the rule book every 3rd play, but sometimes weird stuff happens.
This would have been a great time to pull out the book, or iPhone and get it right.