http://www.perfectgame.org/Articles/View.aspx?article=8705
If memory serves, he got five right in his same column last year, including us.
If memory serves, he got five right in his same column last year, including us.
Kendall Rogers has us back in Omaha next year
- Thread starter Predestined
- Start date
I don't see how that's possible. Considering Ole Miss is the best baseball program in the state. They have the best facilities right? At least I read that somewhere on one of their boards.
Next year will be all about our battery. Catcher and starting pitchers.
Our lineup returns Detz, Pirtle, Rea, Bradford (who will have a better year next year), Henderson, and potentiall Frazier, depending on his willingness to stay after being drafted in the 6th round. So we should be ok with the lineup except for a few spots that we have to sort out like 3B and RF.
But our big questions are 1) Who is going to take the starting catcher spot and give something defensively and offensively, and 2) Who the hell is going to be our weekend rotation next year? We've got a lot of potential starters, but no one has really stepped up except maybe Fitts toward the end of the year. We need some guys to really improve in the offseason and grab those weekend spots. If we can solve our catching and starting pitching questions, we will be another solid baseball team next year.
Our lineup returns Detz, Pirtle, Rea, Bradford (who will have a better year next year), Henderson, and potentiall Frazier, depending on his willingness to stay after being drafted in the 6th round. So we should be ok with the lineup except for a few spots that we have to sort out like 3B and RF.
But our big questions are 1) Who is going to take the starting catcher spot and give something defensively and offensively, and 2) Who the hell is going to be our weekend rotation next year? We've got a lot of potential starters, but no one has really stepped up except maybe Fitts toward the end of the year. We need some guys to really improve in the offseason and grab those weekend spots. If we can solve our catching and starting pitching questions, we will be another solid baseball team next year.
No way Frazier stays. I hope Bradford will have a better year next year, but like I've been saying for 2+ years now, he's just not as good a hitter as people want to think he is. I expect he'll bat about .290 and play good defense. Keys for us will be to develop some better starting pitching (Woodruff & Lindgren need to both bounce back), find a catcher, and find some power other than Rea (who I think will have a monster year).
I'm concerned about the power as well.
I agree with you that Rea will have a big year, but after that there really isn't any power to speak of. Where will we get it from? I really don't know much about who we have coming in next year, and I'm not sure I see any real power coming from anyone on the bench this past year, so I'm not sure if we will be able to get any legit power there.
I really think the biggest keys to next season are Woodruff and Lindgren. They have the most experience of any returning starters and they really have to be the guys to step up next year and take the leadership role. If they can come in and solidify Friday/Saturday, we will be a tough team to beat in a weekend series. They both have the potential to be shut down pitchers and we saw first hand what solid starting pitching can do to an offense.
I agree with you that Rea will have a big year, but after that there really isn't any power to speak of. Where will we get it from? I really don't know much about who we have coming in next year, and I'm not sure I see any real power coming from anyone on the bench this past year, so I'm not sure if we will be able to get any legit power there.
I really think the biggest keys to next season are Woodruff and Lindgren. They have the most experience of any returning starters and they really have to be the guys to step up next year and take the leadership role. If they can come in and solidify Friday/Saturday, we will be a tough team to beat in a weekend series. They both have the potential to be shut down pitchers and we saw first hand what solid starting pitching can do to an offense.
Fitts didn't step up as a starter. He was told to go out and give us 2-3 innings just like he was coming out of the pen ..in other words don't pace yourself and don't hold anything back. Now he may start at some point next year but he didn't show anything this year to make me think he will be a 5+ inning Guy in SEC play next year.
Hopefully, Humphries and the other signee will be able to contribute next year and give us a little help in the power department. We can't be any worse than we were the last 6 weeks of the season this year though, and that worked out pretty good for us.
He got 5-8 last yr. but had 2 more in ones to watch...hope he's right and although immediately after Tuesday's game, I felt "well, that sucks because we are at least 2 years away from a chance at another run" his writeup going into this year shows just how much a team can change and improve. we have a pretty stacked lineup and honestly, I feel our CWS run this year was like UCLAs in 2010. Probably a little ahead of where we should have been but it allows us to be the experienced team in a couple of year... here's hoping... http://www.perfectgame.org/Articles/View.aspx?article=7325
I keep
seeing people say that Frazier will be back, and I wonder what leaves y'all to believe this? I mean it's not completely impossible, but you would have to think that it's unlikely. He was drafted pretty dang high. I hope he comes back, for sure, but just don't see it happening. At this point, I would say that there is a better chance he leaves.
seeing people say that Frazier will be back, and I wonder what leaves y'all to believe this? I mean it's not completely impossible, but you would have to think that it's unlikely. He was drafted pretty dang high. I hope he comes back, for sure, but just don't see it happening. At this point, I would say that there is a better chance he leaves.
What is his realistic potential in reaching the majors?
That's the approach I'm hoping he takes. He's undersized, he has an average arm and will have to move to 2B if he wanted to make it to the majors, and he has above average speed, but nothing really special. He hits the ball pretty well, but for the most part he is a singles machine. How many guys like that do you see playing in the majors? Very few.
Another year may not improve his stock at all, but he will get a college degree that he can use for the rest of his life. Frazier is a great college baseball player, but I just don't know what his realistic prospects are at the next level. Come back to school for another year, finish your degree, and you most likely end up in the same place as this past year in the draft. Go after baseball and if it doesn't work out, you have a degree.
That's the approach I'm hoping he takes. He's undersized, he has an average arm and will have to move to 2B if he wanted to make it to the majors, and he has above average speed, but nothing really special. He hits the ball pretty well, but for the most part he is a singles machine. How many guys like that do you see playing in the majors? Very few.
Another year may not improve his stock at all, but he will get a college degree that he can use for the rest of his life. Frazier is a great college baseball player, but I just don't know what his realistic prospects are at the next level. Come back to school for another year, finish your degree, and you most likely end up in the same place as this past year in the draft. Go after baseball and if it doesn't work out, you have a degree.
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He'll improve more in a year of minor league ball than he would in another year of college ball. His odds are probably no better than 20% of making the majors, but his best chance is to go ahead and start minor league ball now. He can always go back to school for 1 year to finish his degree in a few years if it doesn't work out and the team will pay for it.
He's gone:
@A_Fraz12: Thank you Bulldog Nation for all of the support this week and over the past 3 years! Been an honor to wear Maroon and white! #Hailstate
Catcher...
Daniel Gardner will be the golden goose behind the plate. No need to worry there. Should be a step up from what we've had to put up with this year (Ammo easily cost us the first game of the CWS - swinging K pass ball - taking the wrong angle on the bunt and spinning like a top to throw it to 1st base and get Rea killed). I hope to God Cohen doesn't give Gardner the reins to call pitches as a Redshirt Freshman. I know when Coach Shoenrock was at State that he kept a binder of charted pitches and had how they pitched EVERY guy they faced from his Freshman to Senior season. That's meticulous and getting the job done. Lord knows our Bullpen showed out this year, but I think we could have been more successful if Cohen or Butch would take a little initiative and chart pitches and call pitches.... especially when you're getting paid a hefty salary to do what you love to do.
Frazier is gone. I feel really uncomfortable playing Hump at SS as a True Frosh. I don't really think he can handle a 60 game season there. Possibly 3B or 2B for him. RF may open up for him. Who knows. Just needs to be in the line-up somewhere for his stick. I don't know if I wouldn't move Pirtle to SS to be honest. Also, maybe Norris has a fire lit under his *** now and will step up and play 3B. He's a solid setup guy outta the pen if not.
Robson and Hann need to see the field somehow. We have to get some world class speed in our lineup and steal some bases (especially with these damn composite bats). Whoever is the head master of base-running at MSU needs to be relieved of his responsibilities. I've never seen a more poorly coached base-running team. No leads, not running with two out counts, and no secondary leads. It's all elementary. With Tuig going 7+ for UCLA in the Title game the kid took 2.0-2.4 sec to get it to the catcher out of the stretch (had a weak pick off move too) and an avg pop time for a D-1 catcher is 1.8-2.0 so in all reality we had 3.8 sec to make it to 2B or steal 3rd (with a right handed batter at the plate). The common base stealer takes about 2.6-3.1 sec to get from 1st to second with a lead. We could have stolen all day off the kid (the catcher was still trying to recover from a concussion from taking 3 balls to the face in Game 1). No one in the dugout owns a stopwatch though I suppose? We did take advantage of him once with Frazier and it wasn't even close and Frazier is notta guy who has blazing speed so that just goes to show you that the opportunity was there.
Cohen wants to preach being "aggressive" on the basepaths. Aggressive to me is moving runners in good counts and not taking the bats and the confidence out of your batters hands by b$#%ing. Aggressive to Cohen is letting Mingione make bonehead calls at 3B and b*%$ at all costs.
*Can anyone answer me this:
With as "tight" as this team claims to be...when Renfroe was hit almost smack dab in the chin...Cohen didn't come to out to see about him or talk to the ump (which is not really that big of a deal). However, the next inning we didn't even offer to hit any of their batters. Really? 17! That showed me we had layed down, put our tails between our legs, and were gonna to lose the whole thing. Hell, since I've been in Little League...if one of your buddies got plunked then our pitcher would go out and beam one of their guys. It's baseball.
Anyhow...here's to having experience and having been there before so maybe we don't **** the bed next year if we're in the same position.
Btw...the dumb17s who built TD Ameritrade Park turned whole field in the wrong position. The announcers couldn't even figure it out. They should have not have messed with a good thing and just gone ahead and renovated Rosenblatt. But hell no.
Daniel Gardner will be the golden goose behind the plate. No need to worry there. Should be a step up from what we've had to put up with this year (Ammo easily cost us the first game of the CWS - swinging K pass ball - taking the wrong angle on the bunt and spinning like a top to throw it to 1st base and get Rea killed). I hope to God Cohen doesn't give Gardner the reins to call pitches as a Redshirt Freshman. I know when Coach Shoenrock was at State that he kept a binder of charted pitches and had how they pitched EVERY guy they faced from his Freshman to Senior season. That's meticulous and getting the job done. Lord knows our Bullpen showed out this year, but I think we could have been more successful if Cohen or Butch would take a little initiative and chart pitches and call pitches.... especially when you're getting paid a hefty salary to do what you love to do.
Frazier is gone. I feel really uncomfortable playing Hump at SS as a True Frosh. I don't really think he can handle a 60 game season there. Possibly 3B or 2B for him. RF may open up for him. Who knows. Just needs to be in the line-up somewhere for his stick. I don't know if I wouldn't move Pirtle to SS to be honest. Also, maybe Norris has a fire lit under his *** now and will step up and play 3B. He's a solid setup guy outta the pen if not.
Robson and Hann need to see the field somehow. We have to get some world class speed in our lineup and steal some bases (especially with these damn composite bats). Whoever is the head master of base-running at MSU needs to be relieved of his responsibilities. I've never seen a more poorly coached base-running team. No leads, not running with two out counts, and no secondary leads. It's all elementary. With Tuig going 7+ for UCLA in the Title game the kid took 2.0-2.4 sec to get it to the catcher out of the stretch (had a weak pick off move too) and an avg pop time for a D-1 catcher is 1.8-2.0 so in all reality we had 3.8 sec to make it to 2B or steal 3rd (with a right handed batter at the plate). The common base stealer takes about 2.6-3.1 sec to get from 1st to second with a lead. We could have stolen all day off the kid (the catcher was still trying to recover from a concussion from taking 3 balls to the face in Game 1). No one in the dugout owns a stopwatch though I suppose? We did take advantage of him once with Frazier and it wasn't even close and Frazier is notta guy who has blazing speed so that just goes to show you that the opportunity was there.
Cohen wants to preach being "aggressive" on the basepaths. Aggressive to me is moving runners in good counts and not taking the bats and the confidence out of your batters hands by b$#%ing. Aggressive to Cohen is letting Mingione make bonehead calls at 3B and b*%$ at all costs.
*Can anyone answer me this:
With as "tight" as this team claims to be...when Renfroe was hit almost smack dab in the chin...Cohen didn't come to out to see about him or talk to the ump (which is not really that big of a deal). However, the next inning we didn't even offer to hit any of their batters. Really? 17! That showed me we had layed down, put our tails between our legs, and were gonna to lose the whole thing. Hell, since I've been in Little League...if one of your buddies got plunked then our pitcher would go out and beam one of their guys. It's baseball.
Anyhow...here's to having experience and having been there before so maybe we don't **** the bed next year if we're in the same position.
Btw...the dumb17s who built TD Ameritrade Park turned whole field in the wrong position. The announcers couldn't even figure it out. They should have not have messed with a good thing and just gone ahead and renovated Rosenblatt. But hell no.
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We will have enough talent to win 50 games again, but we need some guys to have breakout years. Woodruff and Lindgren were Top 12 Round draft picks out of high school, so we know the potential is there. I really like this recruiting class as well.
The SEC scheduling gurus did us a favor for next year after screwing us this year. We play Mizzou, UGA, and UT while getting Vandy at home and totally avoiding SC and Florida, who will probably be two of the top three teams in the East.
The SEC scheduling gurus did us a favor for next year after screwing us this year. We play Mizzou, UGA, and UT while getting Vandy at home and totally avoiding SC and Florida, who will probably be two of the top three teams in the East.
1. It wasn't on purpose.
2. The "next inning" was the top of the 9th. You're down 3-1. You don't put a runner on base on purpose in that situation.
3. It's the CWS. Not little league. You don't put a runner on base on purpose in that situation.
I think we will be scary good next year, and here's why....
First of all, we will have our entire bullpen back, minus Girodo. Girodo is a key loss, but he didn't really do much until postseason play when he really stepped up. So we only have 1 arm to replace on our best unit.
We had ZERO starting pitching for the majority of the year and only Graveman in postseason...and we went to the Title game. Next year, we have a healthy Woodruff, an improved Lindgren, and we'll have to find one more starter out of Bracewell, Fitts, Cox, Hudson, Gentry, Ross, Holder, or maybe even Evan Mitchell. And don't be surprised if Dakota Hudson comes in and starts as a Freshman. Butch doesn't usually do that, but that kid supposedly runs it up there 93-94 and is already polished, we'll see.
As for our position players, the only real concern for me is finding a good arm in the outfield. Hopefully Gavin Collins or Vickerson can come in and play RF, because I don't like the idea of CT, Robson, And Henderson in the outfield. They could get to some balls, but that would be the weakest armed outfield in history...and weakest at the plate as well.
I am expecting Britton to step up and play a good SS next season, but if he can't we will likely see Pirtle at SS and Hann at 2B I guess. I fully expect Humphries to take the 3B spot as a Freshman, and he could legitimately hit 4-5 bombs his first year too. Plus, Big Wes could end up doubling his HR total from this season, so we will have around e same amount of HR's I would think. We may be able to get some power out of Garner or the Juco Catcher as well.
I don't think some of you realize just how dominant our pitching staff could potentially be next year. Again, it all depends on Woodruff and Lindgren, and if Hudson comes in as a stud we could be even better. But just getting 5-6 innings from a starter will seem like an eternity after what we did this year. If things go as planned with our starters, we will look a lot like UCLA next year except with more power.
Im pumped about it.
First of all, we will have our entire bullpen back, minus Girodo. Girodo is a key loss, but he didn't really do much until postseason play when he really stepped up. So we only have 1 arm to replace on our best unit.
We had ZERO starting pitching for the majority of the year and only Graveman in postseason...and we went to the Title game. Next year, we have a healthy Woodruff, an improved Lindgren, and we'll have to find one more starter out of Bracewell, Fitts, Cox, Hudson, Gentry, Ross, Holder, or maybe even Evan Mitchell. And don't be surprised if Dakota Hudson comes in and starts as a Freshman. Butch doesn't usually do that, but that kid supposedly runs it up there 93-94 and is already polished, we'll see.
As for our position players, the only real concern for me is finding a good arm in the outfield. Hopefully Gavin Collins or Vickerson can come in and play RF, because I don't like the idea of CT, Robson, And Henderson in the outfield. They could get to some balls, but that would be the weakest armed outfield in history...and weakest at the plate as well.
I am expecting Britton to step up and play a good SS next season, but if he can't we will likely see Pirtle at SS and Hann at 2B I guess. I fully expect Humphries to take the 3B spot as a Freshman, and he could legitimately hit 4-5 bombs his first year too. Plus, Big Wes could end up doubling his HR total from this season, so we will have around e same amount of HR's I would think. We may be able to get some power out of Garner or the Juco Catcher as well.
I don't think some of you realize just how dominant our pitching staff could potentially be next year. Again, it all depends on Woodruff and Lindgren, and if Hudson comes in as a stud we could be even better. But just getting 5-6 innings from a starter will seem like an eternity after what we did this year. If things go as planned with our starters, we will look a lot like UCLA next year except with more power.
Im pumped about it.
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In regards to the HPB...they took that pitcher out immediately. It was clearly a mistake and the pitcher didn't have control. Not like he threw at Renfroe intentionally. "Retaliating" to accidental HPB is a good way to get someone killed or seriously injured.
Also, ammo didn't lose the first game for us. Grounding into two double plays in the last 4 innings did.
Also, ammo didn't lose the first game for us. Grounding into two double plays in the last 4 innings did.
1. If Garner will be such a big upgrade next year, why did he redshirt?
2. Robson didn't do anything this year to indicate he should get more playing time. And we haven't seen Hahn at all.
3. Completely agree about the baserunning. We couldn't do a worse job of running the bases if we tried.
4. As others have pointed out, you don't retaliate after an obvious mistake pitch.
2. Robson didn't do anything this year to indicate he should get more playing time. And we haven't seen Hahn at all.
3. Completely agree about the baserunning. We couldn't do a worse job of running the bases if we tried.
4. As others have pointed out, you don't retaliate after an obvious mistake pitch.
Hailstate88, don't be too quick to throw Garner into the starter spot at catcher. I HAVE heard that he has had a great start to summer ball, but Cohen is not one that typically likes to throw a Freshman behind the dish. I wouldn't be surprised to see one of our two Juco catchers get the start, at least early on.
As for SS, I am planning on Britton breaking out next year. He is a super talented guy, and if he just get things together defensively, I could see him hitting .300 next year. He has a great plate approach, but just needs a lot of real time reps. I think if given the reps, he will give us Pirtle-esque results.
As for SS, I am planning on Britton breaking out next year. He is a super talented guy, and if he just get things together defensively, I could see him hitting .300 next year. He has a great plate approach, but just needs a lot of real time reps. I think if given the reps, he will give us Pirtle-esque results.
We've got 2 JUCOs and 2 elite HS catchers. Pick your poison. One of the 4 will step up. Do you really think this staff isn't charting every pitch? Really? Just because Butch and Cohen don't have their heads in a binder doesn't mean it isn't getting done elsewhere in the dugout. There is something to be said for presenting a catcher with that information and scouting report and letting them call the game. Do you really think a pitching coach has a magical formula to evaluating what a hitter can't get to -- that a college catcher doesn't also understand? For one, the catcher calling it speeds up the game, and doesn't mess with the rhythm of your pitchers which is a huge deal for Butch Thompson. For two, there is an awful lot of things you can see from the catcher's box that can't be seen from the dugout. Implying that we need to change the way we do this -- after the two best pitching seasons we've had in 40 years is a bit over the top, don't you think? The formula is working great -- leave it alone. Better receiving and better throwing catchers are in the pipeline.
On the stealing comment, I agree. Our leads are horrible -- our jumps are horrible -- etc...Base running in general I agree with everything you said. That said, I disagree with every example you tried to give us situationally. You do not start getting cute with trying to steal second while down multiple runs. That lead runner was meaningless in the scheme of things in that game. And do you honestly think we don't have anyone in the dugout with a stop watch relaying this information to our coaching staff? We showed tremendous game planning and scouting throughout the year -- which was commonly discussed by CBB talking heads throughout the run -- and also is shown in our obsession with matchups. Given that information, you think we ignore one of the most basic scouting tools available? Really? I can assure you -- we know how quick pitchers are to the plate and average pop times for a given catcher long before ever stepping on the field against these teams.
Surely, you aren't honestly trying to tell us that a good base runner should be 0.2 sec from 2b before the catcher gets the ball off Vander Tuig -- as your post implies? Your numbers are ridiculous on him. So, you think even a slow runner should have been able to steal second with 0.7sec to spare? Really? You made a gross misrepresentation of everything about him in your post. He led UCLA in pickoffs with 3. MSU had no one with more than one. 6 of 13 attempted steals on him all season resulted in runners being thrown out. The only player we had that was better was Graveman -- who had 4 of 6 thrown out. So, he wasn't nearly as slow to the plate or as bad with holding runners and pickoff moves as you imply.
Your Renfroe comment has already been adequately refuted. Would have been total ignorance on our part to give up a base runner and go after a guy down 3-1 in the 9th in what was obviously an accident pitch.
On the stealing comment, I agree. Our leads are horrible -- our jumps are horrible -- etc...Base running in general I agree with everything you said. That said, I disagree with every example you tried to give us situationally. You do not start getting cute with trying to steal second while down multiple runs. That lead runner was meaningless in the scheme of things in that game. And do you honestly think we don't have anyone in the dugout with a stop watch relaying this information to our coaching staff? We showed tremendous game planning and scouting throughout the year -- which was commonly discussed by CBB talking heads throughout the run -- and also is shown in our obsession with matchups. Given that information, you think we ignore one of the most basic scouting tools available? Really? I can assure you -- we know how quick pitchers are to the plate and average pop times for a given catcher long before ever stepping on the field against these teams.
Surely, you aren't honestly trying to tell us that a good base runner should be 0.2 sec from 2b before the catcher gets the ball off Vander Tuig -- as your post implies? Your numbers are ridiculous on him. So, you think even a slow runner should have been able to steal second with 0.7sec to spare? Really? You made a gross misrepresentation of everything about him in your post. He led UCLA in pickoffs with 3. MSU had no one with more than one. 6 of 13 attempted steals on him all season resulted in runners being thrown out. The only player we had that was better was Graveman -- who had 4 of 6 thrown out. So, he wasn't nearly as slow to the plate or as bad with holding runners and pickoff moves as you imply.
Your Renfroe comment has already been adequately refuted. Would have been total ignorance on our part to give up a base runner and go after a guy down 3-1 in the 9th in what was obviously an accident pitch.
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Patdog:
1. Why redshirt Garner if he's such a big upgrade? Hmmm... You don't burn the confidence of your future catcher by throwing him to the dogs. While Garner has played his played his fair share of baseball since High School Freshman year he was a little under-developed physically. You let the young pup sit back and learn the game and let him shine next year.
2. Robson...really? The kid did pretty well considering the situations he was put in. He had two game winning hits at the end of the season that was huge (pinch hit game-winners if my memory serves me right). True Freshman. That's ballzy.
3. As far as Hann goes...why burn a year of eligibility when you have All - SEC caliber middle infielders already holding down 2B and SS? The best middle infield we've had in ages.
4. Yes. You retaliate. You don't even have to hit the guy. You can throw behind him or throw at his head. You're not out there to make friends and cut paper dolls. Sometimes its about intimidation and showing you have a set. We had Holder on the hill and again...the best middle infield in the nation behind him so even if we did hit a guy putting a guy on first is the least of my concern. You hit a mother17er or at least throw at one in that situation.
Sutterkane:
1. Ammo sure did lose the game. That was the worst game behind the plate he's had all year. He cost us 3 runs. Btw...there's still been no mention of the dumb17 running out of the base-line on a bunt and going knee to knee with Rea. Cohen didn't come out and argue that. It's in the rule book that when a man bunts he has to run inside the double line. Again...elementary.
2. "Retaliating to an accidental HBP is a good way to get someone killed" - Seriously...does this board play Church League Softball or something? I've played a ton of competitive baseball and watch a ton more. I've got ex-teammates in the pros and in the minors. You sure as hell hit a mother17er or throw at one in that situation.
Cousin Jeff:
1. Doesn't matter. Renfroe could have been seriously injured. You've gotta let your top guy know that you've got his back. It's about confidence and intimidation. Who has the biggest set of nuts.
3. It's done from Little League to the Majors. Again...this board seems to have a Church League Softball kind of mentality. I'm sure y'all would have invited UCLA over for mustache rides and such after the game if y'all were playing.
Cadaver:
Garner is definitely the future. I see Cohen catching by committee until the middle of the SEC season next year.
As far as Britton goes...he was a stud at Cullman High School but it hasn't transferred over to MSU. He seems uncomfortable and uncoordinated. I hope I'm wrong. I'd love for him to take over SS and hitting .300
I here ya...we're spoiled with Renfroe's good arm, but I'd rather have 3 guys with speed out there that have range and can cover ground than putting a Detz typed speed guy with a Renfroe arm in RF. You're not gonna see another Renfroe.
1. Why redshirt Garner if he's such a big upgrade? Hmmm... You don't burn the confidence of your future catcher by throwing him to the dogs. While Garner has played his played his fair share of baseball since High School Freshman year he was a little under-developed physically. You let the young pup sit back and learn the game and let him shine next year.
2. Robson...really? The kid did pretty well considering the situations he was put in. He had two game winning hits at the end of the season that was huge (pinch hit game-winners if my memory serves me right). True Freshman. That's ballzy.
3. As far as Hann goes...why burn a year of eligibility when you have All - SEC caliber middle infielders already holding down 2B and SS? The best middle infield we've had in ages.
4. Yes. You retaliate. You don't even have to hit the guy. You can throw behind him or throw at his head. You're not out there to make friends and cut paper dolls. Sometimes its about intimidation and showing you have a set. We had Holder on the hill and again...the best middle infield in the nation behind him so even if we did hit a guy putting a guy on first is the least of my concern. You hit a mother17er or at least throw at one in that situation.
Sutterkane:
1. Ammo sure did lose the game. That was the worst game behind the plate he's had all year. He cost us 3 runs. Btw...there's still been no mention of the dumb17 running out of the base-line on a bunt and going knee to knee with Rea. Cohen didn't come out and argue that. It's in the rule book that when a man bunts he has to run inside the double line. Again...elementary.
2. "Retaliating to an accidental HBP is a good way to get someone killed" - Seriously...does this board play Church League Softball or something? I've played a ton of competitive baseball and watch a ton more. I've got ex-teammates in the pros and in the minors. You sure as hell hit a mother17er or throw at one in that situation.
Cousin Jeff:
1. Doesn't matter. Renfroe could have been seriously injured. You've gotta let your top guy know that you've got his back. It's about confidence and intimidation. Who has the biggest set of nuts.
3. It's done from Little League to the Majors. Again...this board seems to have a Church League Softball kind of mentality. I'm sure y'all would have invited UCLA over for mustache rides and such after the game if y'all were playing.
Cadaver:
Garner is definitely the future. I see Cohen catching by committee until the middle of the SEC season next year.
As far as Britton goes...he was a stud at Cullman High School but it hasn't transferred over to MSU. He seems uncomfortable and uncoordinated. I hope I'm wrong. I'd love for him to take over SS and hitting .300
I here ya...we're spoiled with Renfroe's good arm, but I'd rather have 3 guys with speed out there that have range and can cover ground than putting a Detz typed speed guy with a Renfroe arm in RF. You're not gonna see another Renfroe.
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Seriously HailState88, NOBODY retaliates after a pitch that was such an obvious mistake. Especially in the 9th inning of a 3-run national championship ballgame. It's stupid to even suggest it.
Robson batted .206 and struggled to even get the ball out of the infield, even on some of his hits. He may develop into a good player, but he's got a long way to go. 50-50 at best for him.
We struggled at 3rd all season. Why not put Hahn there if he was as good as you say & move Detz to DH? He may be a great player for us, but none of have ever seen him play so none of us have a clue if he's going to be great or terrible.
Robson batted .206 and struggled to even get the ball out of the infield, even on some of his hits. He may develop into a good player, but he's got a long way to go. 50-50 at best for him.
We struggled at 3rd all season. Why not put Hahn there if he was as good as you say & move Detz to DH? He may be a great player for us, but none of have ever seen him play so none of us have a clue if he's going to be great or terrible.
1. Exactly, that's why I said don't pencil Garner into the starting role. I agree, and I think that we will have a Juco starting Catcher unless Garner has a big time summer (which so far he is I think).
2. I think it's funny how some of you guys want to act like Britton has already proven to be a ****** player for us. The dude is a Sophomore this year. Yes, he hit .177 as a Freshman, but that was as a freshman in the SEC. And let's not forget that he had one of the biggest hits of our season against LSU to win the game in the SECT. He also held almost a .300 OBP even though he had a bad average last year.
This year, he had a .250 average in very minimal at bats, but improvement is still improvement. If he has already gone from .177 to .250, it is very easy to think he could make the jump to .300 as a Junior. And anyone that wants to bad mouth his defense as a freshman is a fool...you can't base a guys career on how he fields as a freshman in the SEC. He didn't get any opportunities this year bc we had Frazier and Pirtle, but I think he can be a stud these next two years.
3. First, I agree that Renfroe's are hard to find. But I don't think it's out of the question for us to have another one much like him soon. As for the speed thing, I agree that we need guys that can run, but we don't want EVERY SINGLE BALL that is hit on the ground into the outfield to score a guy from second base...or every single fly ball to be an easy tag and score from third. Renfroe saved us a ton more runs this year than anybody even realizes due to his arm. From guys not trying to go from first to third, to guys not wanting to try and score from second, to guys not tagging from third...he had opponents' attention. Henderson, Bradford, and Robson will not control the running game one single bit with those weak assed arms. I like all 3 of them, but I am hoping a Collins, Vickerson, or even Humphries with a better arm could play RF. We may not have that luxury though, so we'll see.
No doubt. I don't care who your friends are, HailState88, if they think we should have hit someone in the 9th inning of a Championship game, they aren't very smart.
Don't you know they have the best baseball and football programs too? We JUST now surpassed them in baseball but they'll probably bounce back after firing Bianco.
Patdog:
Robson is a beast. Get off the Haterade. He was a TRUE FRESHMAN with limited time at plate and was put there in pressure situations. His numbers are better than Britton's as a Frosh. So...chew on that.
It's not stupid to suggest it. You've obviously never played competitive baseball before.
Cadaver:
2.) I've seen Britton play High School and here at State. He doesn't carry himself well (reminds me some of Rutledge from Cullman) and is not fit to play SS for a top tier progam like MSU. He'd probably make a helluva 2B or 3B (I thought we should have given him a shot at 3rd the whole year - there's a ton of SS that have made the move to the hot corner). I hope he proves me wrong and I'll leave it at that.
3.) I see your point...but we've dealt with it all year and will again next year with Henderson and Bradford. Those two haven't put a ball on the plate all year and if they did it was a 3 hopper. C.T. plays an above avg game in CF but he just doesn't have the arm to go with it. He needs to spend a lot of time of the tee this summer and fall and work on getting his bottom hand involved in his swing. He's a Tommy Raffo all back hand kinda guy and that's why he pops everything up. He needs to become a leadoff guy for us so I hope he can make the adjustments. I've exhausted my thoughts on Henderson previously so I won't even go there. But I definitely see your point with speed and weak arms and sub par speed and strong arms. We're between a rock and a hard place.
Robson is a beast. Get off the Haterade. He was a TRUE FRESHMAN with limited time at plate and was put there in pressure situations. His numbers are better than Britton's as a Frosh. So...chew on that.
It's not stupid to suggest it. You've obviously never played competitive baseball before.
Cadaver:
2.) I've seen Britton play High School and here at State. He doesn't carry himself well (reminds me some of Rutledge from Cullman) and is not fit to play SS for a top tier progam like MSU. He'd probably make a helluva 2B or 3B (I thought we should have given him a shot at 3rd the whole year - there's a ton of SS that have made the move to the hot corner). I hope he proves me wrong and I'll leave it at that.
3.) I see your point...but we've dealt with it all year and will again next year with Henderson and Bradford. Those two haven't put a ball on the plate all year and if they did it was a 3 hopper. C.T. plays an above avg game in CF but he just doesn't have the arm to go with it. He needs to spend a lot of time of the tee this summer and fall and work on getting his bottom hand involved in his swing. He's a Tommy Raffo all back hand kinda guy and that's why he pops everything up. He needs to become a leadoff guy for us so I hope he can make the adjustments. I've exhausted my thoughts on Henderson previously so I won't even go there. But I definitely see your point with speed and weak arms and sub par speed and strong arms. We're between a rock and a hard place.
If there's anything Robson isn't, it's a beast. He's got a chance to be a good player for us and I don't hate him at all. But to say he's a sure starter next year is ridiculous. As for Britton, for all the hype, he's completely unproven too. We don't know if we will ever get much production from either one of those guys. They both have a chance, & I hope they both turn out to be as good as you think they will.
I agree with some of what you say, but you still aren't seeing my points.
1. You are telling pat to get off the "Haterade" because Robson is a Freshman, yet you are doing the same thing to Britton, because he played really well in limited action this year, so you're basing any negativity towards him off of his Freshman year. You may be right, and he may not be worth a **** next year, but I don't see how anyone could possibly know that yet.
2. We didn't deal with weak arms all year in the outfield. We had Hunter. I know we also had CT and Demarcus, but if you know baseball like you say you do, then you realize that having just 1 big arm can effect the opponents running game tremendously. There were multiple situations in the postseason when 3rd base coaches held runners from trying to score on a ball hit to CT or Demarcus, and that wasn't bc of those two guys, it was bc their preparation for MSU included discussing MSU being ale to hose guys at the plate....so spur of the moment, those 3rd base coaches held runners.
Next year, if we start CT, Robson, and Henderson out there...teams will prepare by saying, "when in doubt, go for the extra base on a ball in the outfield bc MSU has 3 girl arms out there". It is what it is. Having one solid arm out there makes a huge difference in runs allowed.
1. You are telling pat to get off the "Haterade" because Robson is a Freshman, yet you are doing the same thing to Britton, because he played really well in limited action this year, so you're basing any negativity towards him off of his Freshman year. You may be right, and he may not be worth a **** next year, but I don't see how anyone could possibly know that yet.
2. We didn't deal with weak arms all year in the outfield. We had Hunter. I know we also had CT and Demarcus, but if you know baseball like you say you do, then you realize that having just 1 big arm can effect the opponents running game tremendously. There were multiple situations in the postseason when 3rd base coaches held runners from trying to score on a ball hit to CT or Demarcus, and that wasn't bc of those two guys, it was bc their preparation for MSU included discussing MSU being ale to hose guys at the plate....so spur of the moment, those 3rd base coaches held runners.
Next year, if we start CT, Robson, and Henderson out there...teams will prepare by saying, "when in doubt, go for the extra base on a ball in the outfield bc MSU has 3 girl arms out there". It is what it is. Having one solid arm out there makes a huge difference in runs allowed.
It would have been silly for us to retaliate but I honestly think the pitch was called to be thrown high and tight. I havnt seen the replay but a couple times but if you watch the catcher, after he makes the sign, he adjust and looks straight up where the pitch was going to go. Alot of catchers do it. It's human nature. Some catchers are good at hiding little things, playing the bluff game, ei: Aj Pierzynski......UCLA's catcher gave it away with his eyes, I thought.
I can't possibly respond to everyone or I'd be writing a book. This conversation would be better had in person, honestly.
So here it goes:
Engie:
I honestly don't. I said STRAIGHT UP that this year our pitching was incredible in this thread in my first post. I'm implying that John and Butch need to have more say so in calling pitches and with that said...our pitching staff could have been even better (scary, right?). Doing the little things as in charting pitches is H-U-G-E in the game of baseball. If you think it's not then bless you heart. I reckon we should just groove everyone a fastball down the heart of the plate. With ammo being a transfer ***** and this being his 3rd school in his career I don't see him getting the reins to call pitches. He was mentally and physically exhausted and his decisions cost us against UCLA.
With situational stealing...you're way off base cod. From a guy who was All State in the 100M in high school and someone who holds the stolen bases record at his Alma Mater...I might know a thing or two about stealing bases. I suppose you fit on the side of Cohen's techniques of "being cute" and bunting players. Hell...we haven't placed a bunt all year. As much as he talks about doing it we ought to execute them like a champ. Being aggressive is taking bases. I never said we didn't scout. My beef is Cohen and Butch need to do a better job of calling pitches and charting them (we let a UCLA team that was hitting below .200 in the CWS completely rape us).
As far as the stopwatch goes...they might've had one in the dugout but they sure as hell didn't use it. And yes, I sat there consistently (til the 7th) timing Tuig to the plate with his first motion out of the stretch. The kid was SLOW to the plate. And with Frazier taking 2nd with ease the rest of our guys that are fleet of foot could have done the same. Furthermore, taking 3rd presented itself and is fairly simple to do (depending on your count) and a right hander at the plate. It's especially easy with a lefty on the mound (we didn't face one of UCLA's).
2.6.-3.1 sec guys from 1st to 2nd (with a lead) are the guys you want stealing. People like Detz who probably runs over a 4.0 has no business trying to take 2nd base. Frazier, Renfroe, Pirtle, Bradford, and Henderson could have stolen off Puig all day. Plain and simple. My numbers are not fudged or outrageous. I study the game. I've been around a lot of ball. Little things like knowing how fast your guys are from 1st to 2nd can turn out huge in any game. Pitchers begin to worry about the baserunner so much that they lose concentration and leave balls in the zone. It's as simple as that.
He led UCLA with pickoffs of 3? Wow. Impressive. Not. That's hideous.
Lettuce:
It was a 3-0 count on Renfroe when they threw high and tight. I think the pitcher was frustrated and threw at Renfroe (especially with a 3-0 lead).
Patdog:
Robson will be a starter next year. Boom. Roasted.
Cadaver:
1. Britton just doesn't have "it." I've seen the kid play and really wished he would've gone to Samford and left a spot open for someone else. Robson has a couple tools. Britton doesn't yet have a tool box.
2. You totally read that wrong. When I said we've dealt with weak arms all year in the outfield my criticism was pointed directly at Bradford and Hendu. I said earlier in a post that we are spoiled by Renfroe and there will never be another one of him. He has the strongest arm I've ever seen. Ever. Yes, coaches respect him. Duh, I'm not disputing that. When a kid can throw 105 mph off his back foot on a dime who wouldn't? So defending your stance on Renfroe is irrelevant as I never went that route. And I don't know what games you were watching but teams ran on us at will with it being hit to Bradford and Hendu. So touche' for your comment that followed: "When in doubt, go for the extra base on a ball in the outfield bc MSU has three girl arms out there."
Refer to my previous post when I said, "I see your point...we're inbetween a rock in a hard place." We'll have outstanding speed in the OF and three subpar arms or choose a incoming guy to fill the role who will not be as fleet footed but will have a hose. With Renfroe we had both. Gonna miss him dearly.
So here it goes:
Engie:
I honestly don't. I said STRAIGHT UP that this year our pitching was incredible in this thread in my first post. I'm implying that John and Butch need to have more say so in calling pitches and with that said...our pitching staff could have been even better (scary, right?). Doing the little things as in charting pitches is H-U-G-E in the game of baseball. If you think it's not then bless you heart. I reckon we should just groove everyone a fastball down the heart of the plate. With ammo being a transfer ***** and this being his 3rd school in his career I don't see him getting the reins to call pitches. He was mentally and physically exhausted and his decisions cost us against UCLA.
With situational stealing...you're way off base cod. From a guy who was All State in the 100M in high school and someone who holds the stolen bases record at his Alma Mater...I might know a thing or two about stealing bases. I suppose you fit on the side of Cohen's techniques of "being cute" and bunting players. Hell...we haven't placed a bunt all year. As much as he talks about doing it we ought to execute them like a champ. Being aggressive is taking bases. I never said we didn't scout. My beef is Cohen and Butch need to do a better job of calling pitches and charting them (we let a UCLA team that was hitting below .200 in the CWS completely rape us).
As far as the stopwatch goes...they might've had one in the dugout but they sure as hell didn't use it. And yes, I sat there consistently (til the 7th) timing Tuig to the plate with his first motion out of the stretch. The kid was SLOW to the plate. And with Frazier taking 2nd with ease the rest of our guys that are fleet of foot could have done the same. Furthermore, taking 3rd presented itself and is fairly simple to do (depending on your count) and a right hander at the plate. It's especially easy with a lefty on the mound (we didn't face one of UCLA's).
2.6.-3.1 sec guys from 1st to 2nd (with a lead) are the guys you want stealing. People like Detz who probably runs over a 4.0 has no business trying to take 2nd base. Frazier, Renfroe, Pirtle, Bradford, and Henderson could have stolen off Puig all day. Plain and simple. My numbers are not fudged or outrageous. I study the game. I've been around a lot of ball. Little things like knowing how fast your guys are from 1st to 2nd can turn out huge in any game. Pitchers begin to worry about the baserunner so much that they lose concentration and leave balls in the zone. It's as simple as that.
He led UCLA with pickoffs of 3? Wow. Impressive. Not. That's hideous.
Lettuce:
It was a 3-0 count on Renfroe when they threw high and tight. I think the pitcher was frustrated and threw at Renfroe (especially with a 3-0 lead).
Patdog:
Robson will be a starter next year. Boom. Roasted.
Cadaver:
1. Britton just doesn't have "it." I've seen the kid play and really wished he would've gone to Samford and left a spot open for someone else. Robson has a couple tools. Britton doesn't yet have a tool box.
2. You totally read that wrong. When I said we've dealt with weak arms all year in the outfield my criticism was pointed directly at Bradford and Hendu. I said earlier in a post that we are spoiled by Renfroe and there will never be another one of him. He has the strongest arm I've ever seen. Ever. Yes, coaches respect him. Duh, I'm not disputing that. When a kid can throw 105 mph off his back foot on a dime who wouldn't? So defending your stance on Renfroe is irrelevant as I never went that route. And I don't know what games you were watching but teams ran on us at will with it being hit to Bradford and Hendu. So touche' for your comment that followed: "When in doubt, go for the extra base on a ball in the outfield bc MSU has three girl arms out there."
Refer to my previous post when I said, "I see your point...we're inbetween a rock in a hard place." We'll have outstanding speed in the OF and three subpar arms or choose a incoming guy to fill the role who will not be as fleet footed but will have a hose. With Renfroe we had both. Gonna miss him dearly.
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Haha, could you throw a football clear across dem mountains?*
I sense a "English portion of the ACT", and a "what kind of car do you drive" coming your way soon.
This is why you're a message board Queen, bud.
Let the useless jargon commence again. God bless.
Why are arguing based on straw man arguments? Your steal numbers are ridiculous and outlandish -- and I already proved it without calling you out. It's almost like you didn't read anything I wrote the first time and instead went on a tangent argument without addressing most of my actual points.
You REALLY want us to change how we do things based on how a guy that Wasn't.Even.Close. to as good as Butch Thompson used to do them? Seriously? You should have stopped there.
How does "charting pitches" change ANY of that? Please let me know -- and cite specific examples of the pitches we failed to chart. Otherwise, you are building your entire point of view on something that is already 100% false(which I know is the case).
And that is unprovable propaganda -- where you are bitching for the sake of bitching. IF they felt like our catchers were screwing up in their pitch calling, THEY WOULD SIMPLY GET THEIR ATTENTION AND TAKE OVER CALLING PITCHES. What does that mean? They trust the catchers -- which then improves our pitching rhythm -- and then makes our pitchers BETTER. And we churn out dominant performance after dominant performance with guys that ALL have average, at best, "stuff". Holder is the only guy we threw this offseason with truly dominant potential. Yet we dominate. With 84-89 MPH fastballs and average breakers.
You REALLY want us to change how we do things based on how a guy that Wasn't.Even.Close. to as good as Butch Thompson used to do them? Seriously? You should have stopped there.
Again -- Learn to read. Where did you come up with the idea that we aren't charting pitches? And how the 17 did you get that "I don't think it's important" from my post? WE DO IT. CONSTANTLY. We go over DETAILED SCOUTING REPORTS with the catchers both in pre-game and during game. Butch talks pitch selection and strategy with Ammo every inning. To imply that we are "going out there and guessing" shows just how much you do not know or understand about what you are actually watching.
Yet he managed a better pitching staff than Daron Shoenrock ever put together for us -- despite inheriting a potential MLB hall-of-famer who he wasted.
How is that? Was he the one throwing the fastballs down the middle? Yeah -- I didn't think so. Pitch execution killed us against UCLA. Not the pitch calls.
Yeah -- I know a thing or two about it too. And no one gives a 17 about your highschool pedigree. I came within one hit of setting the all-time batting average record as a JR at a particular HS that has only put about 20 guys d1 in the past 15 years including at least 4 or 5 collegiate All-Americans with a guy in MLB as we speak. Does that make an unquestionable expert in hitting? Oh, I was an all-state catcher too. So, there's that...
I what? You need to read more and accuse less. I hate the bunting -- and have since before Will James took up his mantle and beat the dead horse into the ground. There are situations when it's a good thing -- but not nearly as often as we try to do it. SABR says it's generally a bad idea -- and I agree 90% of the time.
We what? We've got at least 10 bunt base hits this year that don't show up on a stat sheet.
And it never crossed your mind that we were ACTUALLY the worst pitching staff that they saw in the CWS? They are a small ball, contact team -- which is exactly our pitchers' weaknesses. Had Woodruff and Lindgren been healthy, it's a whole different discussion.
How does "charting pitches" change ANY of that? Please let me know -- and cite specific examples of the pitches we failed to chart. Otherwise, you are building your entire point of view on something that is already 100% false(which I know is the case).
Righttt...
So slow that prior to Frasier, 50% of every attempted steal on the season against him had been thrown out. You don't find that as a pretty damn big dagger to your opinion? Since you know so much about base stealing, let me teach you something about pitching. There are 2 different motions a RHP uses from the stretch that they can change from pitch to pitch based on counts and likelihood of stealing-- his normal leg kick -- and his slidestep. Vander Tuig NEVER had ANY reason to go to his slidestep -- because it is ignorant as hell to be attempting steals down 5-6 runs. Thus, why your entire point of view on this is RIDICULOUS.
Sure -- let's get a guy thrown out trying to steal third 5-0 or worse. That makes tremendous sense**
Until he went slidestep and made us look like morons for stealing in a situation where the ONLY logical approach was to play station-to-station baseball and hope for a big inning.
I'm sure this striking revelation has never landed on Cohen or Mingione's desk before. Crazy that they've never thought to do any of that. Really. Just how stupid do you think they are? Just took a #10-15 "talent" team to the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP GAME. They obviously have no idea about these COMMON nuances of baseball...
3x more than ANYONE on our staff had. That is 60% of the total pickoffs from our staff all season. How the hell can you say his move isn't good when he picked off 3x as many as any of our guys did?
Message board Queen? Pointing out your ridiculous statements that you try to claim as fact makes me a message board queen? And laughing at your "I led my team in steals in high school" garbage as if nobody else on this board has high school accolades, and as if those make your terrible points more accurate?
You have been absolutely disproven about damn near everything you have tried to say in this thread. And Engie just put the icing on the cake.
Nobody is trying to pick a fight with you, we are just pointing out obvious flaws in what you say. They are very obvious flaws too. But whatever bud, you obviously think you have it all figured out.
Every now and then it's best to just stop when you are being proven wrong....or else you could try PROVING us right. "I led my team in steals" isn't proof of anything.
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Do you,
100%, honestly believe we don't chart pitches? Seriously? This may be one of the top 10 dubmest thing I've ever read on here. WTF do you think we are, a freaking little league team?
100%, honestly believe we don't chart pitches? Seriously? This may be one of the top 10 dubmest thing I've ever read on here. WTF do you think we are, a freaking little league team?