Last Dance thoughts?

[Rayburn8]

A couple of counter-points.

Pippen wasn't a free agent that was brought in to supplement Jordan. He was a guy out of college who developed his game and had success in large part because he was playing next to Michael Jordan, which gave him opportunities that he may not have gotten if he were THE GUY playing for the Sacramento Kings.

Also, Jordan won titles before Rodman got there. Horace Grant was a big part of those early championship teams, but I wouldn't call either he or Dennis Rodman good enough to be considered one of a "big three." They were great role players.

Also, that Barkley/Houston team wasn't a "super team." It was full of future hall of famers, but they were all old guys at that point and were past their primes.

That’s fair I guess, my greater point is Jordan didn’t have to leave because he had a team built around him, as was shown on Sunday night. LeBron never got that till the Lakers or Miami. I feel like using the “Jordan did it with one team point” is invalid because Jordan didn’t build that team around him, a GM did. LeBron has to do what his GM wouldn’t. A GM drafted Pippen, our Grant and Rodman there. LeBron never had anyone close to that caliber added to his roster before Miami, maybe Mo Williams compared to Grant.

I just think it’s unfair people knock LeBron for not winning with Mo Williams, and then excuse the fact Jordan never won without Pippen who was probably the second best player in the league. LeBron’s second greatest accomplishment might be dragging that 2007 team to the finals, it’s insane when you look at that roster.

There are a lot of valid arguments for Jordan over LeBron, but the ones being argued here are not them. Just kind of shows a lot of nostalgia or not paying attention to basketball is factoring in more than actual basketball reason.

 

[Rayburn8]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndic...5-late-game-players-in-recent-memory.amp.html

Correct, the whole LeBron isn’t clutch thing exists because of one bad series in 2011, other than that he has been amazing and is without question the best Game 7 player ever.

Doesn’t he also hold the all-time made playoff game winners record?

 

[Rayburn8]

I know a lot of people will hate on this, but I wouldn’t even say Kobe was the greatest of his generation, Duncan was better,

 

[hatfieldms]

No he wasn’t.

 

[Drebin]

Correct, the whole LeBron isn’t clutch thing exists because of one bad series in 2011, other than that he has been amazing and is without question the best Game 7 player ever.

Doesn’t he also hold the all-time made playoff game winners record?

The bottom line for me is this:

In a big game, a few seconds left, time for one shot, who do you want with the ball? If that's Lebron for you, that's cool...your opinion. If I have to make a list of players I want in that situation, Lebron's down the list for me.

 

[Rayburn8]

Sam number of titles, more MVPs, more Finals MVPs, all-time great defender and best at his power forward ever. Besides being a smaller personality and on a small market team.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

The bottom line for me is this:

In a big game, a few seconds left, time for one shot, who do you want with the ball? If that's Lebron for you, that's cool...your opinion. If I have to make a list of players I want in that situation, Lebron's down the list for me.

You can have Lebron down your list. That’s fine. The statistical FACTS are hes one of the best late game players ever. That’s not opinion.

 

[Rayburn8]

The bottom line for me is this:

In a big game, a few seconds left, time for one shot, who do you want with the ball? If that's Lebron for you, that's cool...your opinion. If I have to make a list of players I want in that situation, Lebron's down the list for me.

I mean that’s great and all? But why do people always boil the greatest ever argument to the most clutch ever argument. I guess James Worthy is the GOAT then.

The last two minutes don’t matter if you dominate the first 46.

 

[Drebin]

You can have Lebron down your list. That’s fine. The statistical FACTS are hes one of the best late game players ever. That’s not opinion.

The stats posted in this thread? There's got to be something stronger than that to sway my opinion.

 

[jethreauxdawg]

I mean that’s great and all? But why do people always boil the greatest ever argument to the most clutch ever argument. I guess James Worthy is the GOAT then.

Don’t forget Robert Horry. Big Shot Bob.

 

[Drebin]

I mean that’s great and all? But why do people always boil the greatest ever argument to the most clutch ever argument. I guess James Worthy is the GOAT then.

The last two minutes don’t matter if you dominate the first 46.

I'm not boiling it down to that one thing. It's one of several factors. In fact, if we were only talking about most clutch ever, I'd go with Larry Bird over any of those guys, including Jordan. But there are many factors to consider and they've all been kicked around ad nauseum in this thread. Based on what I saw (and I'm an old guy who's been following the NBA since the early 80s, and have had Grizzlies season tickets for many years and saw some of these guys we're debating in person many times), there are several guys I'd have ahead of Lebron.

Of course, having this debate across eras is always problematic. Wilt wouldn't have been as dominant if he played against Shaq, for example. It's my opinion that guys like Jordan, Bird, and Magic, and even Kobe, would have been great no matter what era they played in, while guys like Lebron wouldn't have been near as effective if he played in Jordan's era where Bill Laimbeer and Charles Oakley would have put him in the front row on all those rim runs.

 

[Rayburn8]

Don’t forget Robert Horry. Big Shot Bob.

Horry was actually who I was thinking of, not Worthy, thanks.

 

[Rayburn8]

I’d argue LeBron would be better in that era, the dude is 6-8 260 in his prime, it’s crazy to me people don’t think he could handle a more physical game.

You take away the limitations today’s game has and he’d overpower people.

Also LeBron is a better Magic, is Magic could play then, LeBron absolutely could have too.

I’d counterpoint with saying Jordan never had to face a zone defense, I don’t think people realize how much the old rules allowed offensive players to iso people, you cant iso people these days. That’s a huge difference, without the ability to iso, Jordan is still a top 3 all-time, but he would not have been as dominant. If LeBron played with the old iso and double team rules he’d destroy teams. Pick them apart systematically like nothing we’ve ever seen. It works both ways, any iso player would struggle in an NBA like today with zone defenses and laxed double team rules.

 

[hatfieldms]

You also cannot touch players these days. Jordan would absolutely kill it in this NBA without defenders being able to hand check him

 

[Nunya.sixpack]

I thought it was about MJ, not lebron and kobe.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

You also cannot touch players these days. Jordan would absolutely kill it in this NBA without defenders being able to hand check him

You think putting a hand on someone really affects players THAT much? You ever heard of the Jordan rules? Dude shot free throws for people breathing on him.

 

[Drebin]

I’d argue LeBron would be better in that era, the dude is 6-8 260 in his prime, it’s crazy to me people don’t think he could handle a more physical game.

You take away the limitations today’s game has and he’d overpower people.

Also LeBron is a better Magic, is Magic could play then, LeBron absolutely could have too.

I’d counterpoint with saying Jordan never had to face a zone defense, I don’t think people realize how much the old rules allowed offensive players to iso people, you cant iso people these days. That’s a huge difference, without the ability to iso, Jordan is still a top 3 all-time, but he would not have been as dominant. If LeBron played with the old iso and double team rules he’d destroy teams. Pick them apart systematically like nothing we’ve ever seen.

I disagree that Lebron would be better in that era because the bull-in-a-china-shop style he plays wouldn't translate. A lot of those rim runs and dunks you see today would be hard fouls and he'd be carrying is mediocre FT% to the line 20 times per game.

As for zone defense, you speak like that's some incredible NBA innovation. In the 80s, any NBA team who played a zone would be laughed off the court if it was legal. Jordan, Bird, Magic, and other greats like Dominique or Clyde Drexler would've averaged north of 30 playing against zone defenses.

The NBA is still an ISO, pick-and-roll offense for the most part. You don't see much in the way of post doubles because there aren't as many dominant centers in the game anymore. The zone defense is still a gimmick at that level.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

I’d argue LeBron would be better in that era, the dude is 6-8 260 in his prime, it’s crazy to me people don’t think he could handle a more physical game.

You take away the limitations today’s game has and he’d overpower people.

Also LeBron is a better Magic, is Magic could play then, LeBron absolutely could have too.

I’d counterpoint with saying Jordan never had to face a zone defense, I don’t think people realize how much the old rules allowed offensive players to iso people, you cant iso people these days. That’s a huge difference, without the ability to iso, Jordan is still a top 3 all-time, but he would not have been as dominant. If LeBron played with the old iso and double team rules he’d destroy teams. Pick them apart systematically like nothing we’ve ever seen. It works both ways, any iso player would struggle in an NBA like today with zone defenses and laxed double team rules.

Just imagine, who in the 90s is guarding Lebron James, except pippin. It woulda been ugly.

 

[Drebin]

You think putting a hand on someone really affects players THAT much? You ever heard of the Jordan rules? Dude shot free throws for people breathing on him.

Yeah, Jordan got a lot of calls in his era, like all superstars do in all eras. Hat's point is still fair. Handchecking and bodying up was legal in that era and everyone - including Jordan, had to play through heavy contact. Every team had an enforcer that punished anyone going hard to the basket. That doesn't exist anymore.

 

[$altyDawg]

I'm sure there are probably several exceptions in each Senate

Mississippi has 2 exceptions by itself.

 

[Drebin]

Horry was actually who I was thinking of, not Worthy, thanks.

Horry and Ray Allen were probably the two best "big shot" makers of the 90s in the narrow scope of game winning shots, as best as I remember.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

Yeah, Jordan got a lot of calls in his era, like all superstars do in all eras. Hat's point is still fair. Handchecking and bodying up was legal in that era and everyone - including Jordan, had to play through heavy contact. Every team had an enforcer that punished anyone going hard to the basket. That doesn't exist anymore.

So nobody got dunked on, nobody got points in the paint in the 90s, that’s right?

 

[Rayburn8]

I disagree that Lebron would be better in that era because the bull-in-a-china-shop style he plays wouldn't translate. A lot of those rim runs and dunks you see today would be hard fouls and he'd be carrying is mediocre FT% to the line 20 times per game.

As for zone defense, you speak like that's some incredible NBA innovation. In the 80s, any NBA team who played a zone would be laughed off the court if it was legal. Jordan, Bird, Magic, and other greats like Dominique or Clyde Drexler would've averaged north of 30 playing against zone defenses.

The NBA is still an ISO, pick-and-roll offense for the most part. You don't see much in the way of post doubles because there aren't as many dominant centers in the game anymore. The zone defense is still a gimmick at that level.

His FT % is 73%, that’s more than fine to pick up plenty of points. LeBron was bigger the Charles Barkley, who did just fine, bigger than Scottie Pippen who did just fine. LeBron might play more post up, but to act like he couldn’t play in that era is insane. He’d still drive the lane fine too, a guy who is 260 is still bigger than most everyone then but centers. He blew by people, if you think he was some out of control bull in a china shop idk what to tell you.

He is as skilled and graceful as he is strong, it’s the combination that makes him an elite slasher, add on top is all time great court awareness and passing.

That’s because true zone defense was illegal in the 80s and 90s. You couldn’t play help defense half and half then either, you either committed to the double team or stayed with your guy. That’s what I mean, the rules were set up where you could truly iso and expect no help without someone having to fully commit. Today players can play actual help defense and have way more defensive freedom. LeBron would pick teams apart in the old setting of true iso and fully trapping to double team.

 

[Drebin]

Sam number of titles, more MVPs, more Finals MVPs, all-time great defender and best at his power forward ever. Besides being a smaller personality and on a small market team.

Duncan was great - one of the greatest big guys ever. But these other guys we're debating were true playmakers. Duncan would finish at the rim or get a big rebound, but he wasn't a playmaker. He's a guy you'd have to draw something up for to get the ball in a spot. He wasn't the type of player you got the ball to in an iso situation. This is the reason I don't really have many bigs ranked as high as some others might.

 

[dorndawg]

Just imagine, who in the 90s is guarding Lebron James, except pippin. It woulda been ugly.

 

[Drebin]

So nobody got dunked on, nobody got points in the paint in the 90s, that’s right?

Where did I say that? Why are you getting triggered?

 

[Rayburn8]

Yeah, Jordan got a lot of calls in his era, like all superstars do in all eras. Hat's point is still fair. Handchecking and bodying up was legal in that era and everyone - including Jordan, had to play through heavy contact. Every team had an enforcer that punished anyone going hard to the basket. That doesn't exist anymore.

Correct, but everyone also got to play people man-on-man and not worry about help defense without leaving someone completely open. They got rid of hand checking because they allowed zone defenses and combo defenses to exist. They both existed together from 99-2003, which is marked as the roughest era to watch and a defensive focused era, having both have too much of a defensive advantage. They decided zone defenses helped defenses more than handchecking so they eliminated handchecking to give defensive freedom.

We had a handchecking era, an era with both and now a defensive freedom era.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

Where did I say that? Why are you getting triggered?

lol I’m working, driving around and posting fast. I’m definitely not triggered. Although, I’m dumbfounded at the lack of respect you give Lebron as a player. Makes no sense to me.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

Dude looks bad. That’s a good defensive option lol.

 

[Drebin]

His FT % is 73%, that’s more than fine to pick up plenty of points. LeBron was bigger the Charles Barkley, who did just fine, bigger than Scottie Pippen who did just fine. LeBron might play more post up, but to act like he couldn’t play in that era is insane. He’d still drive the lane fine too, a guy who is 260 is still bigger than most everyone then but centers. He blew by people, if you think he was some out of control bull in a china shop idk what to tell you.

He is as skilled and graceful as he is strong, it’s the combination that makes him an elite slasher, add on top is all time great court awareness and passing.

That’s because true zone defense was illegal in the 80s and 90s. You couldn’t play help defense half and half then either, you either committed to the double team or stayed with your guy. That’s what I mean, the rules were set up where you could truly iso and expect no help without someone having to fully commit. Today players can play actual help defense and have way more defensive freedom. LeBron would pick teams apart in the old setting of true iso and fully trapping to double team.

Jesus Christ, I didn't say he couldn't play in that era. I said he wouldn't be as great in that era. And he wouldn't be.

You bring up some names in a manner that leads me to believe you never truly saw some of these other guys play. Charles Barkley was a 6-5 freak of nature. He probably couldn't have guarded Lebron away from the basket but underneath, Barkley would have absolutely eaten his lunch. Scottie Pippen is actually a pretty good comp for Lebron and they would have had some battles had they played against each other. You mentioned Magic in an earlier thread, and there is no comparison. Magic was a better shooter, better passer, and was all-around smoother than Lebron (or pretty much anyone else). To call Lebron graceful is silly. Larry Bird, who also wasn't graceful, would have owned Lebron on both ends of the floor in his prime.

I'm aware zone defenses were illegal back then and made mention of that. But today you still have to fully commit to double a guy, too. Even in zone, you have to be within an arm's length of a defender or you get a defensive three second call. You can't just sag into the paint. The biggest difference in today's game versus then is that teams swing the ball out of double teams or off pick and rolls to shoot more threes. Today's game is much more of a finesse game than it was back then and that's not even a debatable point.

I never said Lebron wasn't great. He's just not the all-time greatest in my opinion. I can keep giving the reasons I think that, but it just seems to trigger folks.

 

[Drebin]

lol I’m working, driving around and posting fast. I’m definitely not triggered. Although, I’m dumbfounded at the lack of respect you give Lebron as a player. Makes no sense to me.

I'm dumbfounded that you think I'm not respecting Lebron as a player. I think you're looking for a reason to be triggered.

It's not disrespectful to think he's the best of his era, but not as good as Jordan, Magic, Bird, or Kobe.

 

[Seinfeld]

I don’t know what you feel is revisionist history about the physical nature of the NBA from the late 70s to the early 90s, but I can only guess that you’re in your early 30s or else you wouldn’t be saying that. From the Lakers/Celtics rivalries to the Detroit bad boys to the storied Bulls/Knicks matchups in the 90s, it was an entirely different game. Now, don’t get me wrong... a guy like LeBron would’ve still thrived even back then. Steph Curry and KD, on the other hand wouldn’t have it so easy

As far as the super team comment, I don’t know what to tell you. You’re talking about a guy that went to Houston in his 13th NBA season, and he joined up with a couple other guys very late in their careers as well. If you want to count it, that’s fine, but it’s one example over a 20 year period whereas we could list a half dozen from just the last few years in the current NBA.

Also, while I do agree with you that MJ has the benefit of Pippen as a teammate and a good GM, let’s not act like Armstrong, Paxson, Grant, Purdue, Cartwright, Kerr, Longley, Wennington, and Harper were exactly household names without him. Even Rodman was at a point in his career when he had been kicked off a couple teams, and he wasn’t exactly a hot commodity. I think it’s safe to say that both MJ and LeBron have made a lot of guys money throughout their careers

 

[Rayburn8]

I'm dumbfounded that you think I'm not respecting Lebron as a player. I think you're looking for a reason to be triggered.

It's not disrespectful to think he's the best of his era, but not as good as Jordan, Magic, Bird, or Kobe.

The disrespectful part was probably saying he wouldn’t be great in any era, he has a greatness that’d transcend eras.

It’s also disrespectful as hell to say Kobe is better, Kobe is maybe 8 all time and idk if he is top ten.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

I'm dumbfounded that you think I'm not respecting Lebron as a player. I think you're looking for a reason to be triggered.

It's not disrespectful to think he's the best of his era, but not as good as Jordan, Magic, Bird, or Kobe.

Buddy, I’ve made 10 grand off the stock market the past two weeks (which is a lot to me), paid off my credit card with that money this morning, ...I am far off from being triggered by anything today.

You were already proven wrong with facts about Lebron no being a clutch player at the end of games. Go ahead and die on that hill brother.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

The disrespectful part was probably saying he wouldn’t be great in any era, he has a greatness that’d transcend eras.

It’s also disrespectful as hell to say Kobe is better, Kobe is maybe 8 all time and idk if he is top ten.

if Kobe is top ten, he’s number ten.

 

[jethreauxdawg]

Buddy, I’ve made 10 grand off the stock market the past two weeks (which is a lot to me), paid off my credit card with that money this morning, ...I am far off from being triggered by anything today.

Wait, you don’t pay your credit card bill off every month? You just lost all credibility. It’s a shame because you were making some good points.
**

 

[Drebin]

The disrespectful part was probably saying he wouldn’t be great in any era, he has a greatness that’d transcend eras.

It’s also disrespectful as hell to say Kobe is better, Kobe is maybe 8 all time and idk if he is top ten.

So maybe we're hung up on terminology. I think the greats transcend the era. It's my opinion that Jordan, Magic, Bird would have been among the greatest of all time whenever they played. If any of those three played in today's game, we wouldn't be talking about Lebron as much. I think Lebron is great and would play well in that era as well, but a lot of the stuff he gets away with now, he wouldn't be able to in that era. Your disagreement on that only leads me to believe you haven't seen a lot of basketball from that era. I suggest you watch this Jordan series more closely, particularly if they get into the great battles with the Knicks and the Pistons in the early and mid 90s. Those games were street fights.

 

[jethreauxdawg]

I’d also like to point out that lebron can’t play if the temp in the arena is over 71.3, but Jordan scored 38 with the flu. Probably would’ve been 45 with corona because we all know it’s not as bad as the flu.
**

 

[Drebin]

I’d also like to point out that lebron can’t play if the temp in the arena is over 71.3, but Jordan scored 38 with the flu. Probably would’ve been 45 with corona because we all know it’s not as bad as the flu.
**

I know you're joking, but go back and look at the Lakers-Celtics championship series when the games in Boston Garden were played in 100+ degree heat because there was no air conditioning. That was a bunch of grown *** men playing the game.

 

[Rayburn8]

Jesus Christ, I didn't say he couldn't play in that era. I said he wouldn't be as great in that era. And he wouldn't be.

You bring up some names in a manner that leads me to believe you never truly saw some of these other guys play. Charles Barkley was a 6-5 freak of nature. He probably couldn't have guarded Lebron away from the basket but underneath, Barkley would have absolutely eaten his lunch. Scottie Pippen is actually a pretty good comp for Lebron and they would have had some battles had they played against each other. You mentioned Magic in an earlier thread, and there is no comparison. Magic was a better shooter, better passer, and was all-around smoother than Lebron (or pretty much anyone else). To call Lebron graceful is silly. Larry Bird, who also wasn't graceful, would have owned Lebron on both ends of the floor in his prime.

I'm aware zone defenses were illegal back then and made mention of that. But today you still have to fully commit to double a guy, too. Even in zone, you have to be within an arm's length of a defender or you get a defensive three second call. You can't just sag into the paint. The biggest difference in today's game versus then is that teams swing the ball out of double teams or off pick and rolls to shoot more threes. Today's game is much more of a finesse game than it was back then and that's not even a debatable point.

I never said Lebron wasn't great. He's just not the all-time greatest in my opinion. I can keep giving the reasons I think that, but it just seems to trigger folks.

I really think you are underselling LeBrons strength and agility. That’s the point with LeBron, Barkley couldn't guard him in the perimeter so LeBron would force him to. That’s where his agility shines thru. Then you put a guard on him and he goes inside and bullies him. That issue defenses face if they don’t have a Kawhi or Scottie Pippen, they’d still face then. He’d still be an all-time too 5 player in any era because he is a more athletic, better scoring Magic Johnson with equal court vision and passing.

LOL at Larry Bird owning LeBron, I’m not addressing that because better to nit address insanity.

That’s not true, you can be well away from a defender. You ever watch the way teams guard Ben Simmons and 76ers? The guy stands at the free throw line. My point is Jordan wouldn’t be as great in today’s game either with help defense and zone defense. Jordan couldn’t shoot 3s and was pure shooting guard. He’d still be great but not as, it’s a two way street is the point I’m making. Defenses have so much more freedom to choose how they guard people these days compared to older times.

I mean with the way you opened that post I feel like the only one getting triggered is you and you are just projecting on others.