I know it seems like heresy, but there HAS to be someone you didn't particularly like. I would expect there would be some Sheed responses, but for me it was Greg Newton.
OFC
OFC
Least favorite Duke player?
- Thread starter Willcampbell
- Start date
I don't really have a least favorite, but a most frustrating. And to me that was Josh McRoberts, guy had all the talent in the world but did not seem like he wanted it all that much.
Probably some kids who didn't stick it out. The problem with so many young players today is that they need the instant gratification. It's almost as if they didn't know what they were getting themselves into. Duke, along with schools like UNC, UK, KU, etc. are bringing in great players almost every year. You're forced to compete with some of the best players in the country every day....IN PRACTICE! Some kids just can't handle that.
As always, Mark, a good response from you. I was waiting for that name to come up.
OFC
King was just such a disappointment. If memory serves me correctly, I think he was the #1 ranked player in his class as an 8th grader, which I guess just goes to show how silly those early rankings really are.
As much as I hate to disparage a 4-year player, Greg Paulus drove me absolutely nuts (outside of the 2008 game at UNC).
Christian Laettner. He shoulda won at LEAST 2 or 3 more of those he lost.
Agree. After watching him in the McDonald's game I thought he would be unstoppable. I am glad, however, that his Mom showed up at a lot of games, even if Josh didn't!
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Newton was just a goof ball. Taylor King was a piece of work that probably when he got to duke and saw what was to be required of him knew immediately that Duke was too much for him and the writing was on the wall. He ended up where he should of gone which is no where. OFC
Yeah, I'm with you there...especially the lack of foresight by some of the recruits which then reduces their competitive nature when they don't earn minutes. No matter what potential coaches may suggest they see in a recruit it's ultimately the player's job to reach it. Obviously other factors play a part and one class can't necessarily project who comes in the next year. I think what also complicates things for some kids is coming to grips with being a role player.
I never root against kids when they leave Duke but for the most part Duke hasn't suffered too significantly by losing the ones they have, particularly considering the minimal impact most of the transfers have made elsewhere. With that said, getting another year from EWill (who doesn't really fit into the argument presented above) would have been nice. Sulaimon's dismissal, however, seemed to rally the team last year and as other posters have suggested, while I wish him well and really appreciate his freshman year, I won't miss the clumsy, over-determined drives to the basket.
One other thing I'd add that gives me general pause is the years where the one and done players don't contribute heavily to team success (and I'll be the first to admit how spoiled we are as Duke fans and how much of an accomplishment it is for some programs to simply make the tournament. I'm a Wichita State alum so I get the privilege of bringing a range of expectations into each season). I would never place blame squarely on a freshman, particularly a rather successful one, but 2012 and 2014 were very unsatisfying by most measures and it's great to see kids enjoy their time at Duke on the way to professional dreams, but as a Duke fan it's impossible not to place primacy on postseason accomplishments for the program.
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Austin Rivers. Rivers was one of the most selfish players ever to come to duke. All he wanted to do was shoot, dribble and not play defense.
^I remember be legitimately concerned with Austin Rivers before he ever played a game for us because I saw his high school stats: 29 ppg and 2 assists per game. Similar scoring averages to guys like Kobe, Iverson, and Jordan who easily averaged 5+ assists per game. Ball stoppers aren't good for basketball.
I always got a little frustrated seeing Josh Hairston play to be honest. I know he was a team player and he wasn't a lockeroom headache or anything - I just always felt like Amile or Semi should have been playing instead of Josh.
I don't think it's right to include Elliott Williams in that group.
Everyone knows I don't like these threads for the simple fact that I just don't see the point. On a Duke board, trashing former Duke players....well, it just doesn't fit in my eyes. But whatever.
A few points I'll make....
The 2012 season wasn't the fault of Austin Rivers. He gets a really bad rap for one reason and one reason only....we lost to Lehigh. That team, in general, probably overachieved before getting to the NCAA Tournament. When you think about losing Singler, Smith and Irving in the year prior we had to figure there would be a dropoff. Still, somehow, we ended up a 2-seed in the NCAA Tournament. It just, unfortunately, imploded when we arrived. That 2012 team would have been lost without a player like Austin's mentality. And I mean lost.
I think Taylor King had issues beyond basketball, and I think that's been proven over and over again since he left Duke. He was battling some demons. I've told this story before and some probably remember it, but his freshman year Duke played in Maui. My wife and I went that season and walking back one night to our hotel along the beach we came across Taylor laying in a hammock smoking cigarettes and drinking a beer. We had a game the next day, and Taylor didn't play. After seeing him in the hammock I told my wife that night I didn't know if Taylor had what it took to cut it. Unfortunately I was right.
I don't harbor any ill-will toward Elliot Williams. He did what he felt he had to do. I know it was floated out there that he wanted to be closer to home because his mom was ill, and while that was probably partly true, he also didn't want to be at Duke. It worked out just fine. He went to Memphis, had a big year and became a first-round pick. That's what he was after. We won the national championship. I'm fine with that.
As for Rasheed, that one still brings me down and will for a while. He loved Duke so much, but he also displayed a bad attitude....and that's just what we saw sometimes on the court. According to people within the program is was even worse behind closed doors. He was my favorite recruit back when he committed because of his passion and love for Duke. You could just hear it in his voice and see it in his eyes. Plus, I was excited to see how his career could have ended as a senior. Oh well.
A few points I'll make....
The 2012 season wasn't the fault of Austin Rivers. He gets a really bad rap for one reason and one reason only....we lost to Lehigh. That team, in general, probably overachieved before getting to the NCAA Tournament. When you think about losing Singler, Smith and Irving in the year prior we had to figure there would be a dropoff. Still, somehow, we ended up a 2-seed in the NCAA Tournament. It just, unfortunately, imploded when we arrived. That 2012 team would have been lost without a player like Austin's mentality. And I mean lost.
I think Taylor King had issues beyond basketball, and I think that's been proven over and over again since he left Duke. He was battling some demons. I've told this story before and some probably remember it, but his freshman year Duke played in Maui. My wife and I went that season and walking back one night to our hotel along the beach we came across Taylor laying in a hammock smoking cigarettes and drinking a beer. We had a game the next day, and Taylor didn't play. After seeing him in the hammock I told my wife that night I didn't know if Taylor had what it took to cut it. Unfortunately I was right.
I don't harbor any ill-will toward Elliot Williams. He did what he felt he had to do. I know it was floated out there that he wanted to be closer to home because his mom was ill, and while that was probably partly true, he also didn't want to be at Duke. It worked out just fine. He went to Memphis, had a big year and became a first-round pick. That's what he was after. We won the national championship. I'm fine with that.
As for Rasheed, that one still brings me down and will for a while. He loved Duke so much, but he also displayed a bad attitude....and that's just what we saw sometimes on the court. According to people within the program is was even worse behind closed doors. He was my favorite recruit back when he committed because of his passion and love for Duke. You could just hear it in his voice and see it in his eyes. Plus, I was excited to see how his career could have ended as a senior. Oh well.
It's hard to make that assertion, let alone convince someone it could have been even kind of true. Austin was far and away the best player on that team. Far and away. Did he dribble too much sometimes and take stupid shots? Yes, he did. That's not what I'm arguing.
Everything about that 2012 team, minus the loss to Lehigh, screams overachieving. We can't overthink things. Mason in 2012 wasn't Mason of 2013 the All-American. Seth Curry wasn't the second-team All-ACC player he was the following year. And Ryan was nowhere near what he became as a senior. Too many times we correlate what a player was at his best and use it in how we judge them. That's not the way this works.
Hell, how we remember Quinn Cook today is a complete 180 from how he was viewed 12 months ago. People wanted him to transfer then. Now he'll go down as one of Duke's best senior leaders ever. EVER! There's some pretty impressive names on that list.
DEAD FREAKING WRONG.
If Duke loses in the S16 that year instead of being upset by Lehigh, no one blames him for anything. there was a lot of things going on behind closed doors with that team, and it wasn't all on him. That's just an absolute scapegoat. We don't get anywhere without him that year.
I think these are pretty valid points and I also agree with the general hesitancy to post in this type of thread. While it's hard to say if other players would have developed at a more accelerated rate had Rivers not had such a dominant in-game presence at times, he was fun to watch overall. He also hit one of the biggest shots in the Duke/UNC rivalry, which always carries a magnitude of its own, irrespective of either team's ranking coming into the game, or even what either team goes on to do afterwards. I think it's important to cherish the memory of that game, even if that season ended in disappointment.
I'm a KY guy but mine at UK were Andre Riddick and Jared Pricket. If they weren't dunking, they had a better shot of kicking it into the other basket. Drove me crazy. No touch at all.
I certainly understand that and I get it. Truthfully, I mostly agree.
I guess I come at it with a different perspective. Duke was my absolute dream school. I was 10 when we won it all in 1991 and I was just starting to get an awareness of what college was. Since then it was the only place I wanted to go. In fact, my parents had to force me to apply to other schools because they did not think I would get in. Frankly, I probably shouldn't have except that I repeatedly showed them how much I wanted to be there. I applied early decision and was deferred. I figured that was it and I was pretty devastated. When I was accepted, it was literally one of the best moments and feelings of my life. Everything I worked for culminated in getting to live my dream and I took advantage of every minute I got to spend there.
Based upon that and how much the University meant and means to me, I've never been a fan of players that do not take advantage of the opportunity to be there. I felt that King, EWill, and Sheed in particular just suffered from not appreciating something that other young adults their age would kill for. I know there were likely a lot of other reasons for Burgess not truly excelling at Duke, but I feel like part of it was that he didn't appreciate what he had.
I don't mind the guys that transfer out or leave the program. I guess I just don't always like the way in which they do it. Semi didn't really fit in and wanted to leave. He did so. Same thing with Murphy. Same thing with Boateng and Boykin. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. The ones I have a problem with are the ones I don't perceive to have worked to make things work out, if that makes any sense.
In the end I don't "hate" any of those guys. Truly, I don't really dislike them. They did what was best for them and that's all you can ask for these days. But as someone who got to live the dream, and worked tremendously hard to do so, it rubs me the wrong way when people take it for granted.
I don't mean for that to sound preachy, but that's how I feel about it. I'm probably overly defensive, haha.
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Greg Paulus used to drive me absolutely freakin crasy because he had a bad habit of dribbling himself into bad situations and turning the ball over because of it but then his senior year when he came off the bench something seemed to click and he was much improved.
+ how different would the narrative about the 11-12 team be if Kelly had not been injured. Although Kelly was not a great player that year, it proved to be a devastating loss for us because of how we played -- high pick / roll involving either Austin or Seth that would lead do either a drive or a kick. Without Kelly to space the floor (and with the defenders of Miles / Hairston clogging the lane), we really struggled to generate any consistent offense in the ACC / NCAA tournaments.
Personally, I think you could make a compelling argument that the 11-12 team significantly overperformed. It essentially played without a true SF, besides austin -- had a collection of generally undersized-guards who lacked the talent, ability, acumen at that stage to keep people out of the lane (Cook, Thornton, Seth, Dawkins), and had a couple bigs (Plumlees) that were maddeningly inconsistent. When you look back at that season, IMO, it was a minor miracle that the team even finished the regular season 27-6, 13-3 in the ACC, and 8-0 in ACC road games.
I think Austin was clearly over-rated out of high school and had a lot of flaws as a star player. However, IMO, that team would have been 06-07 over again without Austin -- i.e., a 10+ loss team that would struggle to even finish .500 in conference.
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Personally, I hate when Greg get's thrown into conversations like this. He was obviously quite frustrating to watch -- particularly when matched up against UNC. But it really wasn't his fault. He just didn't have the talent to be the starting PG at a program like Duke. IMO, he was a victim of recruiting rankings deluding fans into thinking he was the next Bobby Hurley + Coach K identifying Greg as the future of the PG position at Duke. Greg would have been a fine PG at a mid-major program or a lesser ACC rival. But he just didn't have the footspeed, size, athleticism, and ball handling to be a lead PG on a team that wanted to compete with the likes of UNC for conference titles --- particularly while playing on a roster that didn't have a lot of size / athleticism to cover for Greg's weaknesses. For instance, while I think Greg would have had problems on any Duke team, it certainly didn't help that -- after his freshman year -- we had absolutely no length / rim-protection to cover him when guys got in the lane.
Thing about Paulus for me was the off the court in your face attitude when he couldn't back it up on the court. I'll just leave it at this- it really hurt our recruiting those years.
I cannot imagine the pressure that comes with putting on a Duke uniform and setting onto the Coach K Court in Cameron Indoor Stadium and playing on national TV. That kind of pressure along with expectations and not being the starter / star can manifest itself in many ways -- substance abuse, anger and flair ups on court, stupid acts (shop lifting, public intoxication) off the court, really stupid stuff like sexual assualt / domestic violence, home sickness, self doubts, etc. And these are guys are just 18-22, not fully mature yet. So there are lots of things that happen that I can sympathize with.
EWill -- homesick; sure
Billy McCaffery; wants to play the PG against Hurley, I get it. Don't think there was much he could do about it.
Sheed -- flairing up, I understand how that could happen. Allegations of sexual assult? nfw
Crawford Parmer / Semi Ojeleye / Boateng / Gbinije / etc and all the other guys wanting PT? I really understand that one.
Joe Cook -- not cutting it academically; Duke is not an easy school in the classroom either.
The things that I don't like are the kids just don't get it. Or have a since of entitlement that is epically warped. Kids in D1 today have been coddled and groomed and preened to play basketball their whole lives. Going to every AAU tournament around the U.S. and playing international events. Really? Hard to imagine how you get a normal kid coming out of that at the end.
Taylor -- like DJ said his demons were already there.
Burgess -- I think having a dad put pressure to get ahead is a tragedy
Newton -- Go through your piercing rebel phase; probably should have done that in high school.
So would I have been a washout? That is easier for me to imagine. Just sayin.
EWill -- homesick; sure
Billy McCaffery; wants to play the PG against Hurley, I get it. Don't think there was much he could do about it.
Sheed -- flairing up, I understand how that could happen. Allegations of sexual assult? nfw
Crawford Parmer / Semi Ojeleye / Boateng / Gbinije / etc and all the other guys wanting PT? I really understand that one.
Joe Cook -- not cutting it academically; Duke is not an easy school in the classroom either.
The things that I don't like are the kids just don't get it. Or have a since of entitlement that is epically warped. Kids in D1 today have been coddled and groomed and preened to play basketball their whole lives. Going to every AAU tournament around the U.S. and playing international events. Really? Hard to imagine how you get a normal kid coming out of that at the end.
Taylor -- like DJ said his demons were already there.
Burgess -- I think having a dad put pressure to get ahead is a tragedy
Newton -- Go through your piercing rebel phase; probably should have done that in high school.
So would I have been a washout? That is easier for me to imagine. Just sayin.
Taylor King wins the chicken dinner contest with Austin Rivers a close second but Austin redeemed himself with his UNC dagger shot.
good points DJ and I see that. I was just under the assumption a lot of crap went on behind the scenes and a lot of it was Austin and Seth got the raw end just from what I heard but who knows. Kelly getting hurt that year is the reason we lost to Lehigh tho IMO. Rivers isn't my least fav player ever here heck he even gave us one of the greatest moments at DES
I'm glad we are finally acknowledging the EWill situation... To me the same goes for Semi, Boat and Boykins...
I hate this thread personally, b/c i think it unfairly always leads to us trashing our own at some point within it. I also understand i can just ignore it, but i don't want to go silent either- i feel like it's become basically an annual summer ritual where a thread like this gets posted and inevitably Austin Rivers starts getting unfairly treated for his season at Duke.
A few things that I want to defend for him:
1. He get's unfairly blamed for the loss at Lehigh- Yes when Ryan went down that pretty much was the reason we didn't win. We were also never going to win it all. If we make it to the Sweet 16 that year, i GUARANTEE you, no one is saying anything negative about Austin.
2. He had a really good season if you go back and look at the stats. He had a nearly identical season than Harrison Barnes did his freshman year.
3. He gave us arguably the best moment in the last two decades of UNC-Duke rivalry, that alone, should allow him a pass from any slack ever.
4. The stuff that went on behind the scenes- when you don't have a clue about what actually was going on, you look for someone to blame and he was the easiest target. A LOT of that stuff, had nothing to do with him. There were a couple guys that had a much bigger cause for that team's derailment behind closed doors.
5. We dont win half the games we do that year without him. He was quietly one of the more clutch players we've had here. We had a ton of games that season that we should have lost and he willed (along with seth) us back to win....a number of them on the road.
A few things that I want to defend for him:
1. He get's unfairly blamed for the loss at Lehigh- Yes when Ryan went down that pretty much was the reason we didn't win. We were also never going to win it all. If we make it to the Sweet 16 that year, i GUARANTEE you, no one is saying anything negative about Austin.
2. He had a really good season if you go back and look at the stats. He had a nearly identical season than Harrison Barnes did his freshman year.
3. He gave us arguably the best moment in the last two decades of UNC-Duke rivalry, that alone, should allow him a pass from any slack ever.
4. The stuff that went on behind the scenes- when you don't have a clue about what actually was going on, you look for someone to blame and he was the easiest target. A LOT of that stuff, had nothing to do with him. There were a couple guys that had a much bigger cause for that team's derailment behind closed doors.
5. We dont win half the games we do that year without him. He was quietly one of the more clutch players we've had here. We had a ton of games that season that we should have lost and he willed (along with seth) us back to win....a number of them on the road.
Thanks dbav -- After reading and re-reading the thread it just made me think how would I fare. I am guessing I would be in the top 95%
