LeBron block rules question

Bulldog from Birth

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After seeing the replay, I had a rules question that peaked my interest. Should the basket have been awarded due to goal tending? I'm pretty sure LeBron's other hand made contact with the rim during the block. If so, should that have been ruled as goal tending? I'm thinking the answer is "Not goaltending" either because (a) he never got the shot off before getting stuffed, or (b) a block that keeps the ball from getting to the rim makes bodily contact with the rim a moot point. But I wondered. Anyone know the details of the rule?
 

thekimmer

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The violation you are referring to is actually basket interference....

After seeing the replay, I had a rules question that peaked my interest. Should the basket have been awarded due to goal tending? I'm pretty sure LeBron's other hand made contact with the rim during the block. If so, should that have been ruled as goal tending? I'm thinking the answer is "Not goaltending" either because (a) he never got the shot off before getting stuffed, or (b) a block that keeps the ball from getting to the rim makes bodily contact with the rim a moot point. But I wondered. Anyone know the details of the rule?

This is a different call than goal tending but same penalty applies. But the answer is no it was not a violation because the ball must be in contact with the rim for this to apply.
 

rugbdawg

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So theoretically, you could block a shot with your arm extended through the hoop and net as long as the ball was headed up and it wasn't touching the rim? That can't be right...
 

Bulldog from Birth

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The ball contacting the rim can't be right. Aren't these breakaway rims where the rim can be pulled down slightly? It can't be legal to contact the rim while a shot is in the air and intentionally move the rim so that the ball misses it. Dawgstudent may have a point. Maybe the fact that it occurred just after the block and not before it makes the difference. But if that's the case, when is the "shot" complete? Just as soon as LeBron's hand contacts it? When the ball returns to the ground? The play has got me interested in the rules because of how critical the play was.
 

Lawdawg.sixpack

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Here's Rule 11.

Link.

It looks like as long as touching the rim does not cause the ball to "make an unnatural bounce", then it's not illegal. See I.

Upon further review, though, it seems to me that it should've been called a trap (f), and count the basket. It would've been a tough call to make though, and LeBron swatted the ball away to the right just enough to avoid the call. But the hand, ball, and backboard all occurred simultaneously. They should take that out of the rule though. (eta: hand hit ball first, then both hit backboard. maybe that's not a trap, since they didn't all first hit at the same time)


Rule 11 - Basketball Interference - Goaltending

Section I-A Player Shall Not:
a. Touch the ball or the basket ring when the ball is using the basket ring as its lower base.
EXCEPTION: If a player near his own basket has his hand legally in contact with the ball, it is not a violation if his contact with the ball continues after the ball enters the cylinder, or if, in such action, he touches the basket.
b. Touch the ball when it is above the basket ring and within the imaginary cylinder.
c. For goaltending to occur, the ball, in the judgment of the official, must have a chance to score.
d. During a field goal attempt, touch a ball after it has touched any part of the backboard above ring level, whether the ball is considered on its upward or downward flight.
e. During a field goal attempt, touch a ball after it has touched the backboard below the ring level and while the ball is on its upward flight.
f. Trap the ball against the face of the backboard. (To be a trapped ball, three elements must exist simultaneously. The hand, the ball and the backboard must all occur at the same time. A batted ball against the backboard is not a trapped ball.)
g. Touch any live ball from within the playing area that is on its downward flight with an opportunity to touch the basket ring. This is considered to be a "field goal attempt" or trying for a goal.
h. Touch the ball at any time with a hand which is through the basket ring.
i. Vibrate the rim or backboard so as to cause the ball to make an unnatural bounce.
PENALTY: If the violation is at the opponent's basket, the offended team is awarded two points, if the attempt is from the two point zone and three points if it is from the three point zone. The crediting of the score and subsequent procedure is the same as if the awarded score has resulted from the ball having gone through the basket, except that the official shall hand the ball to a player of the team entitled to the throw-in. If the violation is at a team's own basket, no points can be scored and the ball is awarded to the offended team at the free throw line extended on either sideline. If there is a violation by both teams, play shall be resumed by a jump ball between any two opponents at the center circle.
 
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Drebin

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Item F is not applicable because it wasn't all simultaneous. The ball was in the air, going up, when his hand made contact. He then pushed the ball to the backboard and swatted it away. It all happened very quickly but they were not simultaneous actions. Meanwhile, what happened with his off-hand was incidental and had no impact on the shot.

I am no Lebron fan but that was an incredible play on his part, and certainly wasn't goaltending, or even close to it, in my opinion.
 

Bulldog from Birth

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What happened with Dustin Johnson had no impact on the ball moving either. Yet we see how that got ruled. I was just curious if there was something there in the rules that might have said it was interference. I think it was correctly called now having seen the rule. No doubt the play was outstanding and one of the most memorable plays in Finals history.
 

Lawdawg.sixpack

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Hand, ball, and backboard all DID "exist simultaneously", they just didn't all initially occur simultaneously.

I agree though, if hand meets ball first, it should be a batted ball no matter if it's trapped on the backboard. Maybe that's how the rule is interpreted, but it doesn't clearly state that.

And it's one of the most impressive and clutch defensive plays in NBA history.
 

thekimmer

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So theoretically, you could block a shot with your arm extended through the hoop and net as long as the ball was headed up and it wasn't touching the rim? That can't be right...


Nope. That would also be basket interference. See rule 11 below point (h). Its pretty much an impossible feat anyway because to pull it off one would have to block a shot on the way up with their arm extended through the goal without the ball being in the cylinder.
 
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