LOCKED - OT:Justifiable?

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johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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I appreciate the response and yes, there are infinitely more than three options; however, brandishing a gun in an argument over a parking spot is a piss-poor option.
He didn't brandish a gun in an argument over a parking spot. He brandished a gun after somebody shoved him to the ground with no warning other than whatever motion he caught from his periphereal vision. If he had pulled a gun over the parking spot, he'd be getting charged right now for at best making a threat and at worst murder if the result ended up the same.

And again my point. The now-deceased could have pulled a gun and killed the dude standing next to the car. His defense would be "I thought he was going to pull my girl out of the car and assault her based on his words and demeanor." In this case he would be shielded from prosecution. This scenario highlighted the pitfalls of the Fl law specifically. It is far too easy for hothead to get away with murder.
Just because you can make any crazy claim, it doesn't mean a prosecutor and jury is going to buy it. If he had pulled a gun because of a verbal argument between his girlfriend and another guy, then he'd likely get charged. And if he pulled the gun after assaulting the guy, he likely would not be able to claim any self defense or stand your ground law, as they are not generally available to an original assailant (granted, I haven't looked at FLorida's specifically.


As far as not shedding at tear for a guy who died in an argument over a parking spot, I leave that to your conscious.
It's a tragic situation that never should have happened. I do understand some people thinking this is way down the list of problems in the world, as lots of people lose their life without doing something as reckless or heartless as assaulting an older, smaller man. A little cold for my taste, but I get it and I don't think that's an evil or heartless position.
 

hydrodawg

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Jun 6, 2013
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He didn't brandish a gun in an argument over a parking spot. He brandished a gun after somebody shoved him to the ground with no warning other than whatever motion he caught from his periphereal vision. If he had pulled a gun over the parking spot, he'd be getting charged right now for at best making a threat and at worst murder if the result ended up the same.


Just because you can make any crazy claim, it doesn't mean a prosecutor and jury is going to buy it. If he had pulled a gun because of a verbal argument between his girlfriend and another guy, then he'd likely get charged. And if he pulled the gun after assaulting the guy, he likely would not be able to claim any self defense or stand your ground law, as they are not generally available to an original assailant (granted, I haven't looked at FLorida's specifically.


It's a tragic situation that never should have happened. I do understand some people thinking this is way down the list of problems in the world, as lots of people lose their life without doing something as reckless or heartless as assaulting an older, smaller man. A little cold for my taste, but I get it and I don't think that's an evil or heartless position.

You should read the Florida law. And who was the original aggressor here?
 

Hugh's Burner Phone

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I got my enhanced carry a few months ago and one thing my instructor drilled into us is do not pull that trigger unless you really think your life is in danger or the life of another. Being pushed down, even shoved down hard, is an assault but I don't see how that rises to the level of being fearful for your life. Now if he had some kind of weapon then that is another story. I rarely leave the house without my weapon on me and if I were in that guy's shoes I would have probably pulled my weapon and told him it would be in his best interest to chill the 17 out, but no way I pull the trigger. Even if he was screaming I'm gonna kill you at the top of his lungs. Now, once I had my weapon pulled, if I was still on the ground in a defenseless position and he advanced on me again that could then become a different story. I am the biggest propoent of concelaed carry, the second amendment, and self defense you will ever find, but I just can't see deadly forcce being necessary in this siutation. He was not a threat to his life when he pulled the trigger. As far as I am concerned that was manslaughter.
 
Jun 30, 2018
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And who was the original aggressor here?
That does not matter. The guy that got shot inflicted the physical harm. He committed the aggressive act where there could be bodily harm.

You keep digging trying to find any way to get around the truth. That shows you have an agenda.
 

BossDawg78

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You cannot go around pushing and beating on people just because you disagree with them. That is the big thing in my mind. Yell all you want, but once you physically assault someone, you accept the consequences of what happens after that. That was where the whole thing went wrong. Well, and parking in a handicapped spot.

Looks to me like the guy was about to keep beating on him until he saw the gun.

Meant to upvote this and fatfingered a downvote instead. Agree with you. I'm in the "you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes" crowd.
 
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RightOfCenter

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If you notice, his friend in the blue was coming in to help beat the old man before he saw the gun.

It was a cheap shot by the young guy and he should have told the old man to go on and get in the car and leave. It has been said on here, and as bad as it sounds, mind your on business, both parties.
 

patdog

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If he had shot him immediately, they yeah, self defense. But the guy was clearly backing away. That's not self defense. It's not murder either. Probably a low level manslaughter charge would be appropriate though. ​
 

hydrodawg

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Jun 6, 2013
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That does not matter. The guy that got shot inflicted the physical harm. He committed the aggressive act where there could be bodily harm.

You keep digging trying to find any way to get around the truth. That shows you have an agenda.

You keep questioning my agenda. I keep citing the law. Physical aggression is not the standard. Reasonable belief is the standard. Read the law.
 

Lawdawg.sixpack

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that is interesting. but there is difference in raising a defense vs arguing immunity.

the shooter has to make a prima facie showing at the pretrial hearing to be immune from prosecution. so that burden is on him. if there's no reasonable belief, then there is no immunity, but he can still raise his defense at trial. but the prosecution has to make sure they have "clear and convincing evidence" in any case where stand-your-ground may be raised as a defense.

the burden at trial should still be the same.
 

Seinfeld

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That's pretty much how I view it. Everyone in the entire scenario was wrong

1) The woman should not have illegally parked in a handicap spot
2) Man with the CCL should not have taken it upon himself to confront the woman
3) Once confronted, the woman should not have gotten out of the car to continue arguing
4) Man coming out of the store should not have shoved the guy to the ground
5) Man with the gun should not have fired his weaponed

I'll leave the decision on whether he can be charged with manslaughter or not up to the judge, but every damn person in this whole situation acted childishly, and now there are two kids left without a dad (assuming the two kids were his). Just sad...
 

hydrodawg

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that is interesting. but there is difference in raising a defense vs arguing immunity.

the shooter has to make a prima facie showing at the pretrial hearing to be immune from prosecution. so that burden is on him. if there's no reasonable belief, then there is no immunity, but he can still raise his defense at trial. but the prosecution has to make sure they have "clear and convincing evidence" in any case where stand-your-ground may be raised as a defense.

the burden at trial should still be the same.

Your u understanding of prima facie is interesting. The burden is no more than a statement that a threat was perceived. This leaves the prosecutor arguing about reasonableness. You want that job?
 

J-Dawg

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I got my enhanced carry a few months ago and one thing my instructor drilled into us is do not pull that trigger unless you really think your life is in danger or the life of another. Being pushed down, even shoved down hard, is an assault but I don't see how that rises to the level of being fearful for your life. Now if he had some kind of weapon then that is another story. I rarely leave the house without my weapon on me and if I were in that guy's shoes I would have probably pulled my weapon and told him it would be in his best interest to chill the 17 out, but no way I pull the trigger. Even if he was screaming I'm gonna kill you at the top of his lungs. Now, once I had my weapon pulled, if I was still on the ground in a defenseless position and he advanced on me again that could then become a different story. I am the biggest propoent of concelaed carry, the second amendment, and self defense you will ever find, but I just can't see deadly forcce being necessary in this siutation. He was not a threat to his life when he pulled the trigger. As far as I am concerned that was manslaughter.

Closed fists are considered weapons if it is a reasonable assumption that the perp doing the punching is stronger or more physically able than the person they are attacking.

Although punches were never thrown in this story, I say that to say that what is determined as a "life-threatening action" does not (and should not) be constituted as having to be attacked by some sort of weapon.

Above all this, I agree with a point made earlier. The dude is packing, and if he had proper training, knows he should never brandish his sidearm unless he intends to use it. He most CERTAINLY has a duty to remove himself from a potentially dangerous situation. He had the ability to avoid the confrontation all together, before the boyfriend even came out of the store. In my CCL class, we were taught that brandishing should obviously be the last resort, meaning if you could avoid a situation, then you should avoid it (aka going into seedy areas of town, carrying in a seedy establishment, etc.) Edit: Now, had the old man stopped arguing and walked inside, then the boyfriend came after him to retaliate, then this would be an easy call.

I think you have to look at the whole picture here. The old man had a right to pull after being assaulted by a larger, stronger person. He honestly was probably afraid for his life. But he should have never put himself in that situation voluntarily. It'll be up to the judge to decide if they look at it small-scale or large-scale as far as the incident as a whole.
 
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Jun 30, 2018
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You keep questioning my agenda. I keep citing the law. Physical aggression is not the standard. Reasonable belief is the standard. Read the law.
I did. You aren't citing it correctly. I did that earlier. Which proves agenda. It doesn't matter who the burden of proof is on, after the fact.
 
Aug 22, 2012
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If he had shot him immediately, they yeah, self defense. But the guy was clearly backing away. That's not self defense. It's not murder either. Probably a low level manslaughter charge would be appropriate though. ​

This is what I was leaning towards. The guy pushed him once his girlfriend got out of the car. You don't know what is being said. Maybe he said something along the lines of she should get her *** kicked. That would probably elicit a push from pretty much everyone on the board if someone was threatening their wife/girlfriend.

The bottom line is the guy shouldn't have pushed him to the ground like that, it is assault no matter what the guy said unless he said he was going to kill her or something along those lines. The guy had every right to pull the gun but once the guy started backing up, there was no point in shooting him. He even turned to the side. If he turned his back and still was shot, does that change people's opinion?

He wasn't completely running away but he was moving back. Whether he backed up facing the guy or with his back to him is purely semantics at that point.
 

hydrodawg

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Jun 6, 2013
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I did. You aren't citing it correctly. I did that earlier. Which proves agenda. It doesn't matter who the burden of proof is on, after the fact.

After the fact there is only one side of the story. Hence the incentive to kill someone before they kill you. Over a parking spot. And that is the issue with Fl law.
 

Bcash2

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Sep 20, 2012
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Some of you people are unbelievable.

There's a dead guy now and child without a father. Pushing someone down shouldn't result in getting fatally shot. Law or no law. I guess next time a couple of frat boys get in a tussle over a girl outside the bar its ok for one of them to start blasting? Guy is a *****. Take your lumps and move on without killing someone.
 

patdog

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He most CERTAINLY has a duty to remove himself from a potentially dangerous situation. He had the ability to avoid the confrontation all together, before the boyfriend even came out of the store.
Good point. It's one thing to defend yourself if attacked. It's a bit different to go around asking for a fight by yelling at people when you know you're carrying a gun.
 

Chesusdog

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I usually just tell the offending person that mental handicaps don't count.
 

BoomBoom.sixpack

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Aug 22, 2012
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This is where I am, although I don't think he should get off completely. Pulling the gun was fine. A younger, bigger person shoves you down without warning and keeps advancing, definitely time to pull it out. But the guy halted when he saw the gun. Definitely shouldn't have shot him at that point, but I also get that it's easy to say looking at it on video when you're not being threatened and weren't just assaulted. So I don't think he should be looking at jailtime but I do not think he should be let off completely. Maybe it should just be a civil matter now, not criminal, b/c I'm not sure what charge would be appropriate that wouldn't carry significant jail time.

If he did the crime, he should do the time. Yes, a teeny mistake like being too quick on the trigger after jutifiably pulling his gun would be unfortunate to punish with significant jail time, but a man is dead and he is responisble. If a person can't accept those terms then they shouldn't carry. Guns are made to kill people, period, and even a tiny mistake with one can kill. The responsibility for that should lie with the gun owner.
 

Hugh's Burner Phone

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Closed fists are considered weapons if it is a reasonable assumption that the perp doing the punching is stronger or more physically able than the person they are attacking.

Although punches were never thrown in this story, I say that to say that what is determined as a "life-threatening action" does not (and should not) be constituted as having to be attacked by some sort of weapon.

Above all this, I agree with a point made earlier. The dude is packing, and if he had proper training, knows he should never brandish his sidearm unless he intends to use it. He most CERTAINLY has a duty to remove himself from a potentially dangerous situation. He had the ability to avoid the confrontation all together, before the boyfriend even came out of the store. In my CCL class, we were taught that brandishing should obviously be the last resort, meaning if you could avoid a situation, then you should avoid it (aka going into seedy areas of town, carrying in a seedy establishment, etc.) Edit: Now, had the old man stopped arguing and walked inside, then the boyfriend came after him to retaliate, then this would be an easy call.

I think you have to look at the whole picture here. The old man had a right to pull after being assaulted by a larger, stronger person. He honestly was probably afraid for his life. But he should have never put himself in that situation voluntarily. It'll be up to the judge to decide if they look at it small-scale or large-scale as far as the incident as a whole.

They're not a weapon when they're 10 feet from you. An example my instructor used is if you see a guy on the street swinging a machete and screaming nonsense he's still not a threat if you are on the other side of the street. He can't hurt you at that distance. He's only a threat if he advances towards you and closes the distance.
 

BoomBoom.sixpack

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Aug 22, 2012
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Closed fists are considered weapons if it is a reasonable assumption that the perp doing the punching is stronger or more physically able than the person they are attacking.

Although punches were never thrown in this story, I say that to say that what is determined as a "life-threatening action" does not (and should not) be constituted as having to be attacked by some sort of weapon.

Above all this, I agree with a point made earlier. The dude is packing, and if he had proper training, knows he should never brandish his sidearm unless he intends to use it. He most CERTAINLY has a duty to remove himself from a potentially dangerous situation. He had the ability to avoid the confrontation all together, before the boyfriend even came out of the store. In my CCL class, we were taught that brandishing should obviously be the last resort, meaning if you could avoid a situation, then you should avoid it (aka going into seedy areas of town, carrying in a seedy establishment, etc.) Edit: Now, had the old man stopped arguing and walked inside, then the boyfriend came after him to retaliate, then this would be an easy call.

I think you have to look at the whole picture here. The old man had a right to pull after being assaulted by a larger, stronger person. He honestly was probably afraid for his life. But he should have never put himself in that situation voluntarily. It'll be up to the judge to decide if they look at it small-scale or large-scale as far as the incident as a whole.

Does it not matter by florida law if the shooter was committing a crime? Can a purse snatcher that gets physically confronted shoot the guy confronting him and claim he felt threatened? If not, does it matter here that the shooter began the confrontation by criminally harrassing the woman? Should it?
 

RocketDawg

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Not justified. Basically, you don't got around shooting people just becauase they make you mad. I don't think there's any need for everybody carrying a six-shooter around like the old west, and this case is the exact reason why.
 

RocketDawg

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If he wasn't carrying a gun, he wouldn't have shot the guy. There's absolutely no sane reason for carrying a gun around with you.
 

T-TownDawgg

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I'm curious to know if the ******* parking in a handicapped spot and shoving an old man is a super nice guy with no record of similar physical abuse to anyone else.

ETA: A quick Google search just answered my curiosity.

One Markeis Dion McGlockton
was arrested in Clearwater, Florida on the following felony charges-

1. Aggrivated Domestic Battery
2. Resisting Arrest With Violence
3. Disorderly Conduct

Under "Tattoos or Other Identifiable Markings" McGlockton had a tattoo reading:
"Get It How You Live"

https://www.rapsheets.org/florida/clearwater-jail/MCGLOCKTON_MARKEIS/1309676

Discuss amongst yourselves...
 
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hydrodawg

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Jun 6, 2013
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Does it not matter by florida law if the shooter was committing a crime? Can a purse snatcher that gets physically confronted shoot the guy confronting him and claim he felt threatened? If not, does it matter here that the shooter began the confrontation by criminally harrassing the woman? Should it?

Yes it matters. A person committing a crime can't raise the defense. It is unlikely that the old guy's action had risen to be criminal in nature before the boyfried interjected.
 

J-Dawg

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Mar 4, 2009
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There's a dead guy now and child without a father. Pushing someone down shouldn't result in getting fatally shot. Law or no law. I guess next time a couple of frat boys get in a tussle over a girl outside the bar its ok for one of them to start blasting? Guy is a *****. Take your lumps and move on without killing someone.

That's jumping to some mighty big conclusions. Did the guy doing the blasting initiate the confrontation? Were he and his girlfriend enjoying a date when some drunk frat bros stumbled out of the bar and decided to jump him or pick on him? However if I'm a judge seeing a case like you hypothesized, I ask if the CCL-holder willingly put himself in a less that desirable situation by deciding to carry his pistol while in a place with a higher-than-normal potential for confrontation. If he went to the bar like everyone else, got drunk like everyone else, then I see that as he did not think all possibilities through and that he should not have even been carrying. Not that it's technically wrong, but that there would be too much reasonable doubt as to his judgement of the situation anyone.

Too many variables to even consider using that argument in support of this situation.

As far as the 2nd part, since we are throwing unrelated hypotheticals into the mix, if that were your grandfather or nice old man from next door getting attacked for simply having an argument, how would you feel? I don't care what the situation is, if a little old man calls me every name in the book and spits in my face, I don't believe that gives me the right to assault him.
 

J-Dawg

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Mar 4, 2009
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They're not a weapon when they're 10 feet from you. An example my instructor used is if you see a guy on the street swinging a machete and screaming nonsense he's still not a threat if you are on the other side of the street. He can't hurt you at that distance. He's only a threat if he advances towards you and closes the distance.

Oh, I definitely agree. Was just pointing out that you don't have to be being attacked with an actual weapon in order to defend yourself with your CCW.
 

Hugh's Burner Phone

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Oh, I definitely agree. Was just pointing out that you don't have to be being attacked with an actual weapon in order to defend yourself with your CCW.

That is true but still have to be careful. At least in MS. Not sure about FL. My instructor said that, fair or not, use of deadly force is seemed more justifiable if you are female or elderly. I'm 6'5" and not exactly petite so he said the threshold for me using my weapon in self defense would be a lot higher than my 5'2" wife.
 
Sep 26, 2012
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By the nature of the shove and the apparent lack of any attempt to have a conversation/argument with the shooter, the deceased obviously escalated the situation into a physical assault that warranted the brandishing of the weapon by the assaulted (and probably confused) man. Having said that, it appears to me that the deceased had clearly backed off and had even began to turn away from the shooter prior to the shot, which appears to take place a second or more after the weapon is drawn. The other guy clear got the message, he was getting out of there. I personally think that pulling the gun had effectively defused the situation without a shot being fired. Difficult situation.

Tragic event that could have been avoided in so many ways by all parties.
 
Jun 30, 2018
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There's a dead guy now and child without a father. Pushing someone down shouldn't result in getting fatally shot. Law or no law. I guess next time a couple of frat boys get in a tussle over a girl outside the bar its ok for one of them to start blasting? Guy is a *****. Take your lumps and move on without killing someone.
You should always think twice before putting your hands on someone. If you are a physical aggressor I do not really have any remorse for you.
 
Nov 16, 2012
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Not justified. Basically, you don't got around shooting people just becauase they make you mad. I don't think there's any need for everybody carrying a six-shooter around like the old west, and this case is the exact reason why.

Man I don’t know about the last sentence. In today’s drug gangsta macho don’t dis me world you can easily become a victim if you take a wrong turn in New Orleans memphis or batesville or a tj max in arkansas .
 
Jun 30, 2018
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Not justified. Basically, you don't got around shooting people just becauase they make you mad. I don't think there's any need for everybody carrying a six-shooter around like the old west, and this case is the exact reason why.
That's not what happened.

A bigger guy slammed him into the concrete. That's more than making him mad. That can kill you.
 
Sep 26, 2012
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There's a dead guy now and child without a father. Pushing someone down shouldn't result in getting fatally shot. Law or no law. I guess next time a couple of frat boys get in a tussle over a girl outside the bar its ok for one of them to start blasting? Guy is a *****. Take your lumps and move on without killing someone.

Take his lumps for what? Standing there having an argument with someone? You make it sound like the guy got his just reward by getting shoved down on the pavement without any apparent warning. You "take your lumps" when you do something stupid and have a justified consequence coming to you. This guy did not deserve the level of physical assault directed at him.
 

MadDawg.sixpack

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Guns are called "The Great Equalizer" for a reason. A fight between an old geezer and a young punk would always go to the young punk every time. Until the great equalizer is introduced. Then the frail old man is just as strong as the young punk. Some sage advice my dad gave me at a young age - don't mess with old people because they don't have that much to lose anymore. This guy needed that advice.
 

Hugh's Burner Phone

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That's not what happened.

A bigger guy slammed him into the concrete. That's more than making him mad. That can kill you.

But it didn't and he was backing off when he was shot so there was no more threat of additional violence. You can't use what might have happened as legal grounds for what you do. I'm all for armed self defense, but if cases like this where it gets abused continue then sooner or later that right will be taken away from us. This looks to be a case where the shooter thought he was a billy bad *** with his CCW and fancied himself a civilian law enforcement and went around playing cop. This time it got him shoved to the ground and another person killed.
 

Bcash2

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Sep 20, 2012
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I don't think pushing someone down should be a death sentence. If you carry a gun you should be exercising even more caution than the normal citizen. Maybe you should immediately back away from a verbal altercation that you started over a handicapped spot when you realize things are getting tense. The quote "When you're holding a hammer, everything's a nail" comes to mind.
 

Rockydawg

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Mar 3, 2008
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1. Nobody but law enforcement is the gosh damn law enforcement. The guy had no business harassing the girlfriend because he didn't like the way she parked. Call the cops, report it, and shut the 17 up. What difference did he think he was going to make other than the tragic one he made?

2. If he had not been packing, he probably would have kept his mouth shut.

3. I've seen very few acknowledge (not here) that perhaps the victim felt that his girlfriend was being threatened. Was he not standing HIS ground? I guess whoever lives gets to claim it...
 
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