Making a Murderer

May 2, 2004
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I haven't seen this in the thread yet. http://thefederalist.com/2016/01/06/making-a-murderer-subject-steven-avery-is-guilty-as-hell/

If already posted in an 18-page thread and I missed it, I apologize.

Yes, the Federalist is conservative. And that should be weighed in reading this. But all the facts here are linked to original sources. I've seen most of them in the New York Times, the Daily News or elsewhere. None are in dispute, or just the writer's opinion. This piece simple pulls all the things left out of the show together into a gigantic avalanche of common sense that buries any notion that Steven Avery is innocent -- or, incidentally, that the documentary was not wildly biased.
Nothing in that article was very compelling at all....

"Why was kratz' sexting scandal brought up, this is irrelvant to thr case..." umm... No, dumbass. It shows that every single person involved with investigating and prosecuting this case was morally and ethically deplorable.
 
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Bill Derington

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Nothing in that article was very compelling at all....

"Why was kratz' sexting scandal brought up, this is irrelvant to thr case..." umm... No, dumbass. It shows that every single person involved with investigating and prosecuting this case was morally and ethically deplorable.

How can you possibly say nothing in that article is compelling?
I think some of you are misunderstanding reasonable doubt at this point. The possible conspiracies aren't reasonable doubt, because they aren't reasonable.
 
May 2, 2004
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How can you possibly say nothing in that article is compelling?
I think some of you are misunderstanding reasonable doubt at this point. The possible conspiracies aren't reasonable doubt, because they aren't reasonable.
A fat man with a scum stache having a sweet angelic phone sex operator voice is pretty unreasonable, too... Two people having a conversation about not knowing the definition of the word inconsistent is pretty unreasonable. The brother of the deceased going on for 5 minutes about how all the prosecution needed to do was play the defendant's confession and it would result in a surefire conviction... And then turns around and admits he had never seen thr confession is pretty unreasonable.

Yet all that **** happened. As a matter of fact, the conspiracy theories speculated by the defense were about the least unreasonable ******* part of the entire documentary.
 

drxman1

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The brother of the deceased going on for 5 minutes about how all the prosecution needed to do was play the defendant's confession and it would result in a surefire conviction....

According to Steve Romines, this is correct.
 

krazykats

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If you take each suspicious part of this whole ordeal and think it through individually, yes I agree each piece could be looked past. But as a whole you can't look past all of it as suspicious as it all is cumulatively. At some point whether people want to believe it or not everyone should at least be able to admit there is corruption all around this case. Which part is actually filled with guilt is up to you to decide but there is too much to think no foul play happened in the investigation, case or the reporting which impacted the jury or the links of jury members to the suspected possible crooked cops.
 

MacCard

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I haven't seen this in the thread yet. http://thefederalist.com/2016/01/06/making-a-murderer-subject-steven-avery-is-guilty-as-hell/

If already posted in an 18-page thread and I missed it, I apologize.

Yes, the Federalist is conservative. And that should be weighed in reading this. But all the facts here are linked to original sources. I've seen most of them in the New York Times, the Daily News or elsewhere. None are in dispute, or just the writer's opinion. This piece simple pulls all the things left out of the show together into a gigantic avalanche of common sense that buries any notion that Steven Avery is innocent -- or, incidentally, that the documentary was not wildly biased.

I stopped reading when his first two points referenced were: 1) a magic bullet found in a garage with absolutely zero blood or other evidence of a murder and 2) the fuzzy pink "leg restraints".
 

Bill Derington

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A fat man with a scum stache having a sweet angelic phone sex operator voice is pretty unreasonable, too... Two people having a conversation about not knowing the definition of the word inconsistent is pretty unreasonable. The brother of the deceased going on for 5 minutes about how all the prosecution needed to do was play the defendant's confession and it would result in a surefire conviction... And then turns around and admits he had never seen thr confession is pretty unreasonable.

Yet all that **** happened. As a matter of fact, the conspiracy theories speculated by the defense were about the least unreasonable ****ing part of the entire documentary.

What does a man in his 50's sexting have anything to do with this trial? Middle aged men wanting young poon is not an isolated or rate happening.
The brother of the deceased wanted a conviction, nothing strange about that unless he was also in on the conspiracy.
I don't even know what you're talking about in the other part.

It's unreasonable to watch a documentary made to make Steven Avery look as innocent as possible, and buy it hook, line and sinker. Especially after seeing all the damning evidence that was left out.

Im all for getting wrongly convicted people out of jail. But the evidence points to Avery killing Halbach, if it didn't the defense would've used that instead of the police frame job defense.
 

Bill Derington

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I stopped reading when his first two points referenced were: 1) a magic bullet found in a garage with absolutely zero blood or other evidence of a murder and 2) the fuzzy pink "leg restraints".

So you think that bullet had no part in killing Halbach?
 

assistbyhawkins

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Just out of curiosity because I haven't seen the entire show, do the film makers ever offer an alternative theory to how the young woman ended up that way that doesn't involve those charged?

I know that's not the standard of proof necessary to get someone off, but jurors usually start from the common sense position of, "somebody killed her and incinerated her body and the odds of there being another animal torturing, woman abusing, violent sexual pervert right where this happened are pretty low." If I were Avery's defense attorney, I'd see that as a big problem, so I'm wondering if the show offered another theory?


No, they actually werent allowed. The judge ruled that they were not allowed to introduce 3rd party suspects or theories. Thats covered in one of the episodes.
 
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420grover

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Thanks for the reply, but I meant in the documentary, not the trial. Did the film makers suggest an alternative theory?
Somewhere in this thread there is a link to theories for others to have committed the murder that Avery's lawyers came up with.
 

MacCard

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So you think that bullet had no part in killing Halbach?

I think where the bullet was found doesn't show any physical evidence whatsoever - other than said bullet found 7 months after the fact - that a grisly crime occurred there. We're supposed to believe that two simpletons were so meticulous with their cleaning of that pig sty that they got every last drop of blood ad DNA out of every crevice and off every piece of equipment, but then forgot to pick up a bullet in clear view? And that bullet was missed the first 10 times the garage was searched, only to be found by the very same cop who found the magic key?

So it's not the bullet so much as where it was found and the complete lack of the mountain of evidence that should be there with it.
 
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krazykats

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No the filmmakers did not. I truly think people are missing the point of the documentary because of the shock value of the corruption involved.

The documentary isn't trying to get Avery free, it's simply to shine light on the possibility of illegal investigation and the railroading of someone that COULD actually be innocent.

They did that. It's been the viewers that have taken that and ran with it.

I linked a file that was filed by the defense attorneys to say hey we think we have enough on these people that should have been suspects and weren't to actually bring it up in court. Yet the judge totally shut them down for a second time after ruling that that strategy isn't allowed unless it basically comes to light that everything possible could 100% prove that another possible suspect was in fact guilty. That's what was required in order for the defense to even bring that kind of defense.

If they were allowed Bobby Dassey would have cracked IMO.
 
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assistbyhawkins

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If they were allowed Bobby Dassey would have cracked IMO.

This is a large reason, other than the evidence, that I think Avery did it. If this is a cover up, like many of you think it is, there are MANY people involved. Like dozens and dozens of officers, clerks at the evidence room, the DNA lady, Bobby Dassey, Earl Avery, the DA, the judge, the ex boyfriend, etc. More than 2 people had to be in on it. I think its impossible for 2 people to pull this huge plot off.

So out of all these people, not one person has cracked, gotten drunk and ran their mouth to a buddy, who told another person who told another person? Not one person has a conscious in that town and told their husband or wife or best friend who told someone else, like in every other town in the world??

Its been 10 years, and not one leak from anyone involved. I find that very hard to believe, especially considering the intelligence level of 95% of the people involved. I guess if I ever have something to hide Im moving to Manitowoc County. Those people really know how to keep a secret.
 
May 6, 2002
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I don't know how anyone thinks Steve Avery is guilty, but fine, let's say he is. Anybody who seriously thinks Steve Avery should've been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, I just don't know what to tell you.
 
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krazykats

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Not saying it's a conspiracy. I'm just saying there is so much different suspicious pieces to the big picture that something, not saying all of the case/investigation, but something isn't right.

I'm fine and think anyone who says Avery did it could absolutely be right. I understand if you think someone else did it. I would agree that somewhere in this thing if you think there was something dirty going on.

If you truly do not think there are dirty cops in this world that would do some of the things these cops are being accused of then God bless you.
 
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Doc, here are her phone records
 

assistbyhawkins

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Not saying it's a conspiracy. I'm just saying there is so much different suspicious pieces to the big picture that something, not saying all of the case/investigation, but something isn't right.

I'm fine and think anyone who says Avery did it could absolutely be right. I understand if you think someone else did it. I would agree that somewhere in this thing if you think there was something dirty going on.

If you truly do not think there are dirty cops in this world that would do some of the things these cops are being accused of then God bless you.


Of course I think there are dirty cops and I think there were dirty cops involved in this to ensure a guilty verdict. Like I said earlier in this thread, no way I couldve convicted him based on the trial. But I also think he did it. Wouldve been a tough decision if I were a juror of either letting a murderer walk on some pretty big problems with the prosecutions case or sending him to jail. But I think he did it. Glad I wasnt on the jury.
 
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anthonys735

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I don't know how anyone thinks Steve Avery is guilty, but fine, let's say he is. Anybody who seriously thinks Steve Avery should've been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, I just don't know what to tell you.
Pretty easy to think he did it. The only tangible evidence was all found within yards of his house and he was the last person to see her alive.
 

Bill Derington

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I think where the bullet was found doesn't show any physical evidence whatsoever - other than said bullet found 7 months after the fact - that a grisly crime occurred there. We're supposed to believe that two simpletons were so meticulous with their cleaning of that pig sty that they got every last drop of blood ad DNA out of every crevice and off every piece of equipment, but then forgot to pick up a bullet in clear view? And that bullet was missed the first 10 times the garage was searched, only to be found by the very same cop who found the magic key?

So it's not the bullet so much as where it was found and the complete lack of the mountain of evidence that should be there with it.

The bullet was not found out in the open, the actual lead projectile of a .22 is tiny, it would be easy to overlook if it were lodged up behind a welder.
Also to think she just bled all over the place in the garage is understandable, but it's just as likely she didn't. She was placed in the back of the RAV 4 and was either alive or just died. Yet there wasn't blood pooled in the back, just brushed from her hair onto the back.

Avery and Brendan cleaned something in the garage that night with bleach, gas, and kerosene. You have to suspend reality to look at all the pieces pointing at Avery, and then think either the cops killed her, her ex and roommate killed her, or his family killed her.
 

Bill Derington

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Bill, sexting is fine. Sexting a domestic abuse client. Eh, not a good look.

I didn't say it was fine he did it, it's not. But middle aged men in positions of power using that position to try and get in young women's pants is not rare.
It has nothing to do whatsoever with this murder trial. If there was a definition for grasping at straws this would be it.
 
May 6, 2002
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Yeah, it is almost impossible to believe that the man who was obsessed with her, who had an appointment to meet her and who talked with her on the phone just before she disappeared, who also owned the gun she was killed with, and whose blood and sweat were found in her vehicle, and who owned the property near where her body was found, and who just happened to have a history of torturing animals, violently abusing women and being a sex pervert could have been the one who killed her. Especially when there is no shred of evidence that anyone else had the means, motive and opportunity to kill her and transport her body to where it was found. Next you'll be telling me OJ killed Nicole.
lol, did you watch the documentary or did you read the wikipedia page? It sounds like you heard exactly what the PD wanted you to hear. Good job, you're a perfect citizen. Like I said, I'm not saying he didn't do it, I'm saying I highly doubt it, but either way his guilt or innocence are irrelevant to the point of the documentary, which is that our "good guys" aren't necessarily good, and can sometimes be downright evil. That police department wanted Steve Avery to go down from the time he was a young man, and even moreso after he became a walking, talking example of their corruption. And they made it happen, and it's obvious they made it happen, and they have faced zero consequences for it. And it could happen anywhere in America if you're uneducated and poor and you mess with the wrong people.
 
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May 6, 2002
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Tell me which fact in my summary is not accurate.

Anyone who'd make a decision on something like this by watching an obviously manipulated television show probably has little experience with the way documentaries are made, or with observing trials. I have some experience with both. That's why I watched the show -- along with programs like Oliver Stone's JFK, 20/20 and so on, as entertainment, not as a pursuit of the truth.
A handful of facts don't always add up to the truth.

And yes, documentaries are filmed and presented in manipulating ways, but that doesn't mean a documentary can't have truth in it. MaM doesn't have to be 100% true and unbiased (it isn't.) to have contained a load of extremely troubling and damning truth in it. (It does.)
 
May 6, 2002
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Bristol, You honestly don't think Avery killed Halbach? Who do you think did?
Once again, the point isn't whether or not Avery did it, but whether or not he should have been convicted beyond a reasonable doubt. Which, I don't see how anyone could argue there wasn't a wealth of reasonable doubt, in addition to likely grounds for a mistrial for multiple reasons. That's the point.
 

Bill Derington

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You wrote that you highly doubted he did it, not that there was reasonable doubt.

She was definitely murdered, we can all agree on that. If you highly doubt Avery did it, who do you think did?

We don't have enough factual info to know whether was reasonable doubt or not. The series was presented to show reasonable doubt.

The jury saw all the evidence, every bit of it. After seeing that all 12 decided he was guilty, and now you have more faith in a program designed to make Avery look far better and the police far worse than reality.
 

drxman1

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Having finished the West Memphis 3 documentaries, they were WAY more railroaded than anything like Steven...pretty similar between Brendan and Jesse.

Moral to the story, don't associated with intellectually limited people. They will confess and implicate you in murder.
 
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May 6, 2002
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You wrote that you highly doubted he did it, not that there was reasonable doubt.

She was definitely murdered, we can all agree on that. If you highly doubt Avery did it, who do you think did?

We don't have enough factual info to know whether was reasonable doubt or not. The series was presented to show reasonable doubt.

The jury saw all the evidence, every bit of it. After seeing that all 12 decided he was guilty, and now you have more faith in a program designed to make Avery look far better and the police far worse than reality.
You have a lot of faith in our justice system. So much so that nothing I say is going to change your mind.
 

assistbyhawkins

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Once again, the point isn't whether or not Avery did it, but whether or not he should have been convicted beyond a reasonable doubt. Which, I don't see how anyone could argue there wasn't a wealth of reasonable doubt, in addition to likely grounds for a mistrial for multiple reasons. That's the point.


So you think the 12 jurors were in on the coverup as well as the other dozens of people that it wouldve taken to do this? And nobody has ever uttered a single word in that town in 10 years. Crazy stuff.
 
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So you think the 12 jurors were in on the coverup as well as the other dozens of people that it wouldve taken to do this? And nobody has ever uttered a single word in that town in 10 years. Crazy stuff.
None of what you just said is anywhere in my posts. It doesn't take as much as you think to have tipped these scales. You don't think it's incredibly convenient for the county that a guy was on the verge of getting as much as 36 million dollars and becoming a national symbol of their ineptitude and a week after they depose a bunch of the local police officers, Steve Avery, knowing he is about the become wildly rich, decides now is the right time to commit a murder, and to invite a learning disabled relative over to watch and participate, and also to leave her car on his property, her bones in his yard, and her keys in his room? Steve Avery is dumb as a rock. He really is. But no one is that dumb. And it's incredibly convenient for the county that he suddenly, spontaneously decided to do that. A week after their depositions.

Some people have a lot of faith in their gov't., or the police, or their religion, or something else. I have a lot of faith in my own common sense. And my common sense tells me that incredible, unfathomable conveniences like that, don't tend to happen.
 
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GLR5555

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Having finished the West Memphis 3 documentaries, they were WAY more railroaded than anything like Steven...pretty similar between Brendan and Jesse.

Moral to the story, don't associated with intellectually limited people. They will confess and implicate you in murder.

Thanks! Now I'm losing all my damn friends.
 
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krazykats

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I think 2 of them were at least so stubborn the others caved and said F it.

Look you can say all you want, but to think that people affiliated with Manitowac County Sherriffs were on that jury is sickening by itself! Bottom line to me no matter what you think about the evidence or the people allowed to investigate.

People directly related to the Sherriffs being sued by the defendant on the jury. GTFO if that wouldn't bother you in Avery's shoes, innocent or guilty!
 

assistbyhawkins

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Im using common sense too. My common sense tells me that I saw roughly 4 hours of the trial, tops, in a 10 hour series that had hundreds of hours of testimony that neither of us saw. The rest of the show was lawyer interviews, phone calls between ignorant people and video footage of a snow covered salvage yard.

My common sense also tells me that Avery had an IQ of 70 which is LOWER than Brendan Dasseys, so yes, I do believe his that stupid.

Ive said, based on the documentary, I could not give a guilty verdict from what it showed. But Id also feel like **** for letting an animal killing, child molesting, rapist murderer walk.
 
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Ive said, based on the documentary, I could not give a guilty verdict from what it showed. But Id also feel like **** for letting an animal killing, child molesting, rapist murderer walk.
I respect that you're using your common sense, too. I don't want to imply that one of us isn't thinking. Different opinions and perspectives just get to different places. But I do think you have a lot of faith in the justice system. More than I do. I think your last sentence here implies that you put a lot of faith in the coerced confession of a learning disabled child. I don't put one ounce of faith in anything that Brendan said other than his original story. Which in my mind was 100% true. Cops are trained and experienced in how to get a confession and inadvertently they learn how to push someone, especially someone of limited intelligence and maturity to think some things may have happened that didn't. They put that confession in Brendan and then he gave it back to them in a way that should be terrifying to any father, especially as the father of a child with special needs. I have no question in my mind that with no training, a locked room, and several hours I could get Brendan to say whatever the hell I wanted him to. It's really sad no one was there to protect him.
 
May 2, 2004
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What does a man in his 50's sexting have anything to do with this trial? Middle aged men wanting young poon is not an isolated or rate happening.
The brother of the deceased wanted a conviction, nothing strange about that unless he was also in on the conspiracy.
I don't even know what you're talking about in the other part.

It's unreasonable to watch a documentary made to make Steven Avery look as innocent as possible, and buy it hook, line and sinker. Especially after seeing all the damning evidence that was left out.

Im all for getting wrongly convicted people out of jail. But the evidence points to Avery killing Halbach, if it didn't the defense would've used that instead of the police frame job defense.
So you're questioning how a DA sexually harassing a complaintant who had been involved in domestic abuse (after making the whole avery trial about it being ridiculous that defense attorneys would accuse the state of ethical improprieties) is relevant to this trial?

Please excuse yourself from this conversation. It's clear that you're neither objective nor intelligent enough to continue it.
 

assistbyhawkins

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I respect that you're using your common sense, too. I don't want to imply that one of us isn't thinking. Different opinions and perspectives just get to different places. But I do think you have a lot of faith in the justice system. More than I do. I think your last sentence here implies that you put a lot of faith in the coerced confession of a learning disabled child. I don't put one ounce of faith in anything that Brendan said other than his original story. Which in my mind was 100% true. Cops are trained and experienced in how to get a confession and inadvertently they learn how to push someone, especially someone of limited intelligence and maturity to think some things may have happened that didn't. They put that confession in Brendan and then he gave it back to them in a way that should be terrifying to any father, especially as the father of a child with special needs. I have no question in my mind that with no training, a locked room, and several hours I could get Brendan to say whatever the hell I wanted him to. It's really sad no one was there to protect him.

I do not think Brendan Dassey should be in jail. No way in hell. And like everyone else, I have serious doubts about our justice system and think people are corrupt as hell. I just think Steven Avery is a murderer from what Ive seen. But he probably deserves a new fair trial somewhere about 3000 miles from that ******** county. And I think the outcome would be the same.