Making a Murderer

[Bill Derington]

You have a lot of faith in our justice system. So much so that nothing I say is going to change your mind.

That's not true, you just have way more faith in the people that made the documentary than I am willing to give.
They intentionally mislead and left out key material that looked bad on Avery, why?
If you have someone that you think was framed, why would you not want the whole story with all the info shown?
The same reason his defense used the framed defense, because reality and evidence pointed to Avery, and that was all they had.

 

[drxman1]

My common sense also tells me that Avery had an IQ of 70 which is LOWER than Brendan Dasseys, so yes, I do believe his that stupid.

Forrest Gump had an IQ of 75, just saying.

 

[crazyqx83_rivals88013]

You wrote that you highly doubted he did it, not that there was reasonable doubt.

She was definitely murdered, we can all agree on that. If you highly doubt Avery did it, who do you think did?

We don't have enough factual info to know whether was reasonable doubt or not. The series was presented to show reasonable doubt.

The jury saw all the evidence, every bit of it. After seeing that all 12 decided he was guilty, and now you have more faith in a program designed to make Avery look far better and the police far worse than reality.

All 12 of them decided he was guilty AFTER 70% of them on initial polling thought he wasn't guilty. Then one of the jurors has to suspiciously be excused because of a family emergency and they have to select a new foreman and restart deliberations.

I love how you people leave out the facts that are inconvenient to your position while questioning why documentary filmmakers would leave out inconvenient facts to their position. Hypocrisy is a great tool.

 

[Bill Derington]

So you're questioning how a DA sexually harassing a complaintant who had been involved in domestic abuse (after making the whole avery trial about it being ridiculous that defense attorneys would accuse the state of ethical improprieties) is relevant to this trial?

Please excuse yourself from this conversation. It's clear that you're neither objective nor intelligent enough to continue it.

Haha, that's a straw man argument. His ability to prosecute Avery for Murder has nothing to do with him texting someone later, none.
Please explain how it would taint his trial? How are you trying to tie these things together?

You can't, because the 2 have no bearing whatsoever on each other.

 

[larry the cable guy]

The one strange thing to me was the call to dispatch by one of the shady deputy's, a couple of days before her car was found on the Avery property, asking about the license plate number. When dispatch said it was Teresa's car he gave what type of car it was like he was looking at the vehicle. I also found it strange that in a junk yard of that size, the lady who found the car went to the part of the yard which seemed to be the least used to start her search rather than starting closest to the entrance.

I honestly don't know if Steven killed her or not but I do believe the shady cops planted evidence to make sure they had enough to get a conviction.

 

[Bill Derington]

All 12 of them decided he was guilty AFTER 70% of them on initial polling thought he wasn't guilty. Then one of the jurors has to suspiciously be excused because of a family emergency and they have to select a new foreman and restart deliberations.

I love how you people leave out the facts that are inconvenient to your position while questioning why documentary filmmakers would leave out inconvenient facts to their position. Hypocrisy is a great tool.

How is that inconvenient? Because the one excused juror said that? Actually he said 7 of them thought he was innocent, not 70%.

Why is any of that suspicious? So now you think the jury was also tampered with ?

 

[BristolCat_rivals158386]

I also found it strange that a junk yard of that size, the lady who found the car went to the part of the yard which seemed to be the least used to start her search rather than starting closest to the entrance.

God showed her the way.

 

[Violent Cuts]

I thought they said that on the initial jury poll 7 jurors thought he was not guilty, 3 guilty, and 2 undecided. That's 58%, but it was before the one jury left (that thought he was not guilty) and they had to completely start over deliberations.

 

[anthonys735]

Having finished the West Memphis 3 documentaries, they were WAY more railroaded than anything like Steven...pretty similar between Brendan and Jesse.

Moral to the story, don't associated with intellectually limited people. They will confess and implicate you in murder.

Good call. Please lose my contact info.

 

[drxman1]

I had already deleted you.

 

[crazyqx83_rivals88013]

Haha, that's a straw man argument. His ability to prosecute Avery for Murder has nothing to do with him texting someone later, none.
Please explain how it would taint his trial? How are you trying to tie these things together?

You can't, because the 2 have no bearing whatsoever on each other.

It proved that everyone involved in thr investigation and trial from the prosecution sode were sketchy as hell. And when kratz called the defense attorneys scum during the trial for alleging that the sheriffs might have planted evidence and asserted they were the model of ethics and morality, that those statements have absolutely zero merit.

Is this really that hard to follow for you?

Everyone involved in the sheriffs department of mantiwoc county and DA of calumet county are blatant *** liars. Do you not see why that would open up the evidence to scrutiny?

 

[crazyqx83_rivals88013]

How is that inconvenient? Because the one excused juror said that? Actually he said 7 of them thought he was innocent, not 70%.

Why is any of that suspicious? So now you think the jury was also tampered with ?

7 innocent. 3 gulity. 2 didn't state a position.

Does it help your argument that only 25% were willing to say he was gulity after hearing all the evidence?

 

[larry the cable guy]

I was shocked that the Sheriff said it would be easier to kill Avery than frame him.

 

[Bill Derington]

It proved that everyone involved in thr investigation and trial from the prosecution sode were sketchy as hell. And when kratz called the defense attorneys scum during the trial for alleging that the sheriffs might have planted evidence and asserted they were the model of ethics and morality, that those statements have absolutely zero merit.

Is this really that hard to follow for you?

Everyone involved in the sheriffs department of mantiwoc county and DA of calumet county are blatant *** liars. Do you not see why that would open up the evidence to scrutiny?[/QUOTE

Yea it is hard for me to follow, what do those statements have anything to do with whether Avery committed murder or not?

Averys entire defense was to make the police look awful, what do you think the DA is going to say?

ALL things point to Avery killing Halbach, everything. Who do you think did it ?

Yea it is hard for me to follow, what do those statements have anything to do with whether Avery committed murder or not?

Averys entire defense was to make the police look awful, what do you think the DA is going to say?

ALL things point to Avery killing Halbach, everything. Who do you think did it ?

 

[BristolCat_rivals158386]

Having an alternative theory on the killer is not a necessary part of one person's defense of the accused. Stop with that.

 

[Bill Derington]

Having an alternative theory on the killer is not a necessary part of one person's defense of the accused. Stop with that.

We're not in court, you wrote you thought it was highly unlikely he did it, I asked you who you thought did it then.

Here's the difference between you and I. I can differentiate between reality and a television program.
If basing you're entire decision of guilt or innocence off the show, I will agree there was reasonable doubt.....but I understand what I saw. Which was a program designed to make the cops look bad, and Avery look good it's that simple.

The show lied or didn't give the full information about Avery. Avery has no alibi, his Dna is on her car, his rifle matched the ballistics, his nephew described things only someone involved would know, they were sanitizing the garage the night she disappeared, Avery was the last person to see her, her outgoing calls stopped upon meeting Avery, Avery had tried to hide his calls to her that day, he acted anxious to see her, he lied about the address, her body was found RIGHT behind his house, her vehicle on his property, shall we keep going?

 

[wcc31]

Anytime I'm on the opposite side of @crazyqx83's stance, I feel good about my position- no matter the subject.

 

[wcc31]

The show lied or didn't give the full information about Avery. Avery has no alibi, his Dna is on her car, his rifle matched the ballistics, his nephew described things only someone involved would know, they were sanitizing the garage the night she disappeared, Avery was the last person to see her, her outgoing calls stopped upon meeting Avery, Avery had tried to hide his calls to her that day, he acted anxious to see her, he lied about the address, her body was found RIGHT behind his house, her vehicle on his property, shall we keep going?

BUT THERE'S NO EVIDENCE!!!!

 

[crazyqx83_rivals88013]

Anytime I'm on the opposite side of @crazyqx83's stance, I feel good about my position- no matter the subject.

Believe you me. I feel the exact same way about you.

 

[BristolCat_rivals158386]

shall we keep going?

No, we're good. I should have stopped the first time around when I said your mind wasn't going to change. You think my opinion is invalid because I haven't solved the case myself, and you actually believe anything the kid said. We're all done here.

 

[assistbyhawkins]

It proved that everyone involved in thr investigation and trial from the prosecution sode were sketchy as hell. And when kratz called the defense attorneys scum during the trial for alleging that the sheriffs might have planted evidence and asserted they were the model of ethics and morality, that those statements have absolutely zero merit.

Is this really that hard to follow for you?

Everyone involved in the sheriffs department of mantiwoc county and DA of calumet county are blatant *** liars. Do you not see why that would open up the evidence to scrutiny?

Speaking of hypocrisy, do you not listen to yourself??? You are throwing out everything the DA says or does because he sexted a domestic abuse victim. Yet, you are completely believing a guy that kills animals, molests children, rapes people and has been in and out of jail his entire life prior to his 18 years of false imprisonment. :joy:


Ok.

 

[krazykats]

Bill, if the defense was allowed to present questioning that investigated anyone but Steven then maybe it would be a little easier to say this person or that person. However the defense wasn't allowed to, and the Sherriffs did not investigate any one else as a suspect.

Now I can understand thinking Avery looks guilty as sin, but it's the police job to investigate thoroughly and they didn't even treat other people on the property as suspects.........before anything but the car was found!

If you remove the key from the evidence and the blood that may be planted would you still feel the same about Avery? What about the bullet?

 

[wcc31]

No, we're good. I should have stopped the first time around when I said your mind wasn't going to change. You think my opinion is invalid because I haven't solved the case myself, and you actually believe anything the kid said. We're all done here.

So, how is that any different than you? Your mind has been made up this entire time as well. All you outrage guys act like you're the only ones being reasonable here.

 

[bradyjames]

If it was proved Avery did it. However, it was also proved the police planted evidence(which was what got him convicted) would you care?

Would you want him free/behind bars?

 

[BristolCat_rivals158386]

So, how is that any different than you? Your mind has been made up this entire time as well. All you outrage guys act like you're the only ones being reasonable here.

I acknowledge I might be wrong and may potentially be swayed by evidence. That's the difference. Anyone who believes that any of those forced confessions by Brendan are valid, you're not open-minded. That may as well be a litmus test.

I believe some things like this. I don't believe others. I weigh evidence. Some people will weigh it, and come to the opposite conclusion. That's fine. But some people just don't want to think that a guy in a uniform might not be a hero. They don't want to think that they can't trust their local or national government. It's cognitive dissonance. It's a proven phenomena and it's more powerful than evidence or rhetoric. I can argue with that till I'm blue in the face and not get anywhere.

 

[wildcatadam6]

If it was proved Avery did it. However, it was also proved the police planted evidence(which was what got him convicted) would you care?

Would you want him free/behind bars?

Planted evidence doesn't get admitted. Convict or acquit him based on facts and real evidence.

In your scenario, I'd say acquit.

 

[Bill Derington]

If the key and blood were the only things that tied it to Avery I would feel differently, but they aren't.

 

[BristolCat_rivals158386]

Ever hear the saying "If you find a mouse in your house you don't have a mouse, you have mice?" That's how corruption works, too. If you're looking at it and you say "The blood was probably planted, the keys were probably planted... But just look at everything else!" I mean, why would you at that point assume you caught everything they did?

 

[Bill Derington]

Bristol, I felt the same as you while watching it. I didn't just say well the cops are the good guys, he's guilty. I felt awful for Brendan, I believe he was involved, but I also believe he'd eat a pile of dogsh*t if an adult told him too. I want him to be innocent, because his mind is of a child. Disconnecting the battery is not something someone would say and it be true if they're making up a story. How did he know that chains and ropes were used and sure enough Avery had just purchased them. By the way he said he bought them to use on his girlfriend who was in jail at the time.

In the end I know what we saw was heavily skewed in one direction, and left out key info, ask yourself why would anything need to be left out? Wouldn't you want the viewer to see the truth unless you were invested in one side?

 

[crazyqx83_rivals88013]

If it was proved Avery did it. However, it was also proved the police planted evidence(which was what got him convicted) would you care?

Would you want him free/behind bars?

I would want them ALL behind bars.

 

[Bill Derington]

Ever hear the saying "If you find a mouse in your house you don't have a mouse, you have mice? That's how corruption works, too. Off you're looking at it and you say "The blood was probably planted, the keys were probably planted... But just look at everything else!" I mean, why would you at that point assume you caught everything they did?

I don't think the blood was planted Bristol, I think Avery had cut his finger in the process, which he had a nasty cut, and got blood on the car.
I don't know about the key, did it look like it could've been, yes, does that mean it was, no.

So the cops also moved the vehicle and bones back on the property, or did the ex bf and roommate?

 

[BristolCat_rivals158386]

So the cops also moved the vehicle and bones back on the property, or did the ex bf and roommate?

I really don't know, but I don't know how one could rule out anything from the cops after watching this. I don't know if the cops did it, but I certainly don't know why anyone would say "The cops couldn't or wouldn't have done ______." With blank being literally anything. There was no line they were afraid to cross.

 

[Anon1711055878]

I'm pretty sure Avery was innoguilty. Tune in for my next 1 hour take. :boom::fire:

 

[downw/ball-lineD]

Pretty easy to think he did it. The only tangible evidence was all found within yards of his house and he was the last person to see her alive.

well, he's the last person to see her.......unless he wasn't. Maybe the real killer was. Just saying for the sake of argument.

 

[larry the cable guy]

I don't think the blood was planted Bristol, I think Avery had cut his finger in the process, which he had a nasty cut, and got blood on the car.
I don't know about the key, did it look like it could've been, yes, does that mean it was, no.

So the cops also moved the vehicle and bones back on the property, or did the ex bf and roommate?

Having worked in a garage for 8-10 years when I was younger I can say a cut finger isn't out of the ordinary by any means. My hands stayed nicked and cut up all the time.

 

[larry the cable guy]

I also found it strange that the lady who tested the DNA had made a note when speaking to Fassbender that he told her he wanted her to find evidence that would place Teresa in the trailer or garage. If he was trying to find the killer it seems he would ask her to find any DNA and run it in the data base and not specifically pin it to Avery.

 

[wcc31]

But some people just don't want to think that a guy in a uniform might not be a hero. They don't want to think that they can't trust their local or national government. It's cognitive dissonance. It's a proven phenomena and it's more powerful than evidence or rhetoric. I can argue with that till I'm blue in the face and not get anywhere.

Umm, or possibly on this particular case, some came to a different conclusion that you did.

I think the West Memphis 3 were railroaded. I think Amanda Knox was, too. There are plenty of times I think shenanigans went on or an innocent was falsely accused. Just not this time. This time I think they got the right guy.

 

[larry the cable guy]

Umm, or possibly on this particular case, some came to a different conclusion that you did.

I think the West Memphis 3 were railroaded. I think Amanda Knox was, too. There are plenty of times I think shenanigans went on or an innocent was falsely accused. Just not this time. This time I think they got the right guy.

I am not saying you are right or wrong but based on the evidence that the prosecution presented at his first trial would you have thought he was guilty? They had a witness who picked him from a line up.

 

[krazykats]

I don't think the blood was planted Bristol, I think Avery had cut his finger in the process, which he had a nasty cut, and got blood on the car.
I don't know about the key, did it look like it could've been, yes, does that mean it was, no.

So the cops also moved the vehicle and bones back on the property, or did the ex bf and roommate?

Every piece of evidence that did convict Avery is suspect.

Avery did help his parents with a metal roof installation on the days between when Halbach was killed and the day the car was found. The cut was explained by that in something I read and posted here on another page.

Which when I read that and finally found out where he actually was those days it takes more to convince me he did it basically because you do not go through whatever he did to clean a crime scene and just leave that car there like that! Unless your retarded which he is so who knows.

I guess if I had to I'd say IF he was dumb enough to do that then he most likely thought he covered everything else up good enough that he could then say the yard was always open to anyone so the car alone couldn't get him.:,.,:I guess if I'm thinking like a retard that's how I'd have to think it played out in order for him to remain guilty with that huge piece missing to make sense.

 

[Ohiocatfan826]

I think he may have done it as well. But there are way to many issues in the evidence and the way the State presented the case to purely go by what was presented and say he unquestionably did it. People keep saying they cleaned the garage, but on one website I read it reported the defense had the floor jack hammered to look for blood evidence that may have penetrated the surface and found zero. There is no way she was killed in or on the garage and or bedroom and left absolutely zero DNA.

Also every one keeps saying the kid was railroaded and feel bad because he was dumb (IQ 75) but think nothing of Steven with an IQ of 70. And I don't care how dumb he was, they had a car crusher and smelter on premises, and this is his every day job. If the car was there he gets rid of it. You can't claim he was smart enough to clean up all DNA in the potential murder scene but to dumb to remember to get rid of the car. Nah I will just lean an old car hood on it, no one will ever find it.