Mark Stoops still on track

[UKErik]

Losing brings out the worst in people, and it brings out the ridiculous as well. I'm surprised that Stoops is getting hammered to the extend that he is. I think people have forgotten where this program was when Mitch Barnhart pulled the plug on Joker Phillips. It's unfortunate. Looking at the Stoops timeline combined with what he's accomplished off the field, I have no idea why people aren't beyond excited to have him here (and frankly, I think a majority still are).

RECRUITING (rivals rankings)
1st class (29th)...I think any reasonable person would agree that Stoops and staff had precious little time to get much done. The result...a top 30 class. You could argue that no staff anywhere did a better job in Dec and Jan prior to signing day.
2nd class ((17th)...the best class in UK history. Ideally, these players would be redshirt freshman this year.
3rd class (35th)....a very solid class...UK only brought in 21 players.
4th class (currently 17th)....this class includes THREE 4-star offensive lineman.
Overall...I'd imagine his grade would be an A or high B with recruiting. Most important to remember, that first class was a minor miracle. The last two classes are truly Stoops' first two classes. Overall, these four classes represent the best four year "run" in my lifetime.

ON THE FIELD
2013: 2 wins
2014: 5 wins
2015: probably 6 or more wins
I know the "all that matters is the last game" mentality permeates sports these days, but losing big twice doesn't mean UK is doomed to finish that way. Getting absolutely pummeled isn't unique to Kentucky. Hell, even Oregon lost a home game by almost 50 this year. Anyway, big picture, Stoops has done exactly what we had hoped he would. UK has gotten better each year. IMO, it's important to appreciate that and to acknowledge it. No, he isn't contending for a league title. Then again, nobody thought he would be.

BLOWOUT LOSSES
One general comment a lot of fans make goes something like this....I can handle losing, but we should be competitive every time out. Really? With a roster that isn't even remotely complete? And it's tough for just about all schools to avoid getting pounded on occasion. UK fans are pissed because Stoops (with an inadequate roster) just got thumped back-to-back. Imagine how Georgia fans felt after a non-competitive loss to the Gators. Nebraska fans just watched PURDUE score 55 on the Huskers.

BOTTOM LINE
I think Stoops is right where he should be. That doesn't mean the staff can't do a better job (we've talked about the confused defense, eight men to return a punt, etc...), but don't forget the absolute disaster he inherited. In year two, he was a dropped INT at U of L away from going to a bowl game. This year, I think he'll win enough games to qualify for the postseason. Facilities are going to be amazing beginning next summer. Recruiting continues to be improved. UK has some very good young talent. Unfortunately, the "process" (yeah, I know, people that word) is just lengthy and difficult. With that being said, I like where the program is compared to 2012, and I see no reason to anticipate anything but continued improvement.

GBB!!!

 

[School boy]

You have to step up and win games. He's 4-18 in SEC while the SEC East was down, and we have nothing to show for it. His team last year shoulda went to a bowl game, losing 6 in a row was uncalled for. Losing to WKU in his first game was silly, (Joker only lost to them by a point) almost losing to EKU.

If we are ever to win we must demand wins. We're the only school in the SEC that doesn't. Gotta put some big boy jeans on at some point.

 

[UKErik]

No, his team last year shouldn't have gone bowling. Nobody that I saw in preseason projected that team to go bowling. However, Stoops had the team in a position to do so. Dropped interceptions at Florida and Louisville cost Kentucky a postseason bid more than anything the staff did (or didn't do).

In league play, how often has Kentucky been favored? He has 18 league losses. How many came as favorites? Maybe one? If there is one, I can't remember it.

This season, UK has played eight games. UK has been in six. We might be having a completely different conversation had Baker caught the pass against Florida and Badet held on to the bomb against Auburn. Either way, the staff had Kentucky in position to win the games.

You think demanding wins is the trick? Because nobody else demands wins, so clearly, that's where UK needs to get better (LOL). UK needs to put some big boy jeans on? Maybe that'll do it? Yeah, because EVERY OTHER school in the league isn't wearing the vaunted big boy jeans.

What Kentucky needs to win is better players. Recruiting rankings suggest Mark Stoops is getting them. The fact that he can't win big in the sport of football with a bunch of frosh and sophomores (the guys he's recruited) makes him just like almost every coach in football history.

GBB!!!

 

[jauk11]

Thanks, great OP.

Oh wait, two great posts.

Thanks twice, you are right on target in my book.

Do many of our fans realize the impact ONE five star can have on a program (think Couch), TU had SIX in the past two years and all six are making a great impact. Then in their sophomore class they had THREE more near five star 6.0s that are also making an impact, along with three more 5.9s playing a lot. Before Stoops UK was lucky to get ONE four star per class, and we have had TWO 5.9s (Boom and Barker, both making/about to make big impacts. on the team, our only high school 5.9s in ages.

UK's MAIN problem has been raw talent this century, not coaching, not anything else, Stoops is doing a lot to change that, a good chance that he will get his first five star in 17 (if not sooner, don't laugh) to play alongside three more highly rated four stars on the OL.

The times they are a changing, and soon we are going to have a great OL to go with all the skill player talent we have.

And all the fan trashing of the program accomplishes nothing and probably does hurt recruiting, if it does anything.

 

[keefsopeng]

I think something even more important to look at is how we do in games we should have a chance in. in 2013 we were 2-7. In 2014 we were 5-4. In 2015 we are 4-3 so far. I like the trend there however at some point to take the next step you have to win more of those games and hopefully not have 2,3,4 games a year you just know you can't win. Are we ever going to be a true heavy hitter in the SEC? No, but we can be better than where we are? i hope so. Problem for us is that we can get a good amount better but Florida is now back to Florida, UT is real close to be being UT again. Georgia is the same Georgia. We need to pass USCjr, Missouri, Vandy, and Miss St. That is where we see what Stoops and Co are made of. Can we get to the point that we are favored in most of those 4 games every year/win them and then occasionally beat other SEC teams.

My only other concern is how attached is Stoops to some of these assistants? Cause as good as some of them can recruit they are the opposite of that in terms of teaching and coaching. I also really want to know how much control Stoops has over the offensive play calling and how limited the play book is because of Patrick? Those things really mean a lot to me in terms of Dawson and really Neal Brown the 1st 2 seasons, I really thought Neal was bad at his job but Dawson is doing the same kind of crap and it makes me think they are limited and not by their choice.

 

[UKErik]

I don't know if the assistant coaches are quality or not. I know two things though;

1. Coaches tend to look better when they have good/great players. Right now, UK doesn't have anywhere close to enough good/great players.

2. Over the years, UK has gone through coaches like hookers go through Minardi Hall. So either a) UK really sucks at hiring coaches, or b) it hasn't mattered much who the coaches have been because the players have been substandard when compared to other league schools. I think everyone knows which of the two is more likely.

It seems like quite a few fans are down on Shannon Dawson. So how would Shannon Dawson's offense look if he had an even decent offensive line (IMO, UK's OL is the worst in the Southeastern Conference)? Dawson's offense has had some huge days DESPITE the woeful line. How does that reflect on the overall evaluation? IMO, it's fairly clear that Dawson's offense has shown flashes of big time potential. The only thing holding that unit back is brutal pass blocking (not to mention the dropped passes and inconsistent QB play)

IMO, the only way to fairly (and remotely accurately) evaluate these coaches is to wait and see what they can do with the improved talent. I'm just glad the process is three years in the making vs. being a day removed from the Joker debacle.

GBB!!!

 

[Bluetick2100]

Good post Erik
IMHO, every HC first team involved a learning curve..
Stoops is no different.

Players get better so do coaches.

Will Stoops get UK were we all want us to be?
Only time will tell.

 

[LowCountryCat]

I disagree with your conclusion that Stoops is getting better players, Erik. Better relative to what? The rest of the nation? Maybe. At best that guarantees us 3 or 4 scheduled wins a season. But what about in conference? We still have eight conference games to fight through. If we are still last in conference in recruiting, even getting to 4-4 will be a pipe dream UNLESS Stoops becomes an awesome x's and o's coach, which he has yet to be. Recruiting seems better, but it still isn't good enough for the SEC.

 

[FltDoc]

Great post Erik

Agree 100%

Go CATS!

 

[oboroCATfan]

I think the key is to have zero expectations. My mistake is I thought they would take advantage of the easiest schedule we will ever have and that also we would start to show who we want to be on offense. From now on if people would only expect 3-4 wins a season we would all be better off, I know that's what I am looking forward to next year.

 

[BBBLazing]

No, his team last year shouldn't have gone bowling. Nobody that I saw in preseason projected that team to go bowling. However, Stoops had the team in a position to do so. Dropped interceptions at Florida and Louisville cost Kentucky a postseason bid more than anything the staff did (or didn't do).

In league play, how often has Kentucky been favored? He has 18 league losses. How many came as favorites? Maybe one? If there is one, I can't remember it.

This season, UK has played eight games. UK has been in six. We might be having a completely different conversation had Baker caught the pass against Florida and Badet held on to the bomb against Auburn. Either way, the staff had Kentucky in position to win the games.

You think demanding wins is the trick? Because nobody else demands wins, so clearly, that's where UK needs to get better (LOL). UK needs to put some big boy jeans on? Maybe that'll do it? Yeah, because EVERY OTHER school in the league isn't wearing the vaunted big boy jeans.

What Kentucky needs to win is better players. Recruiting rankings suggest Mark Stoops is getting them. The fact that he can't win big in the sport of football with a bunch of frosh and sophomores (the guys he's recruited) makes him just like almost every coach in football history.

GBB!!!

We are always some play that we should've made away. The fact that we keep not making these plays is what pisses me off.

 

[rmattox]

I disagree with your conclusion that Stoops is getting better players, Erik. Better relative to what? The rest of the nation? Maybe. At best that guarantees us 3 or 4 scheduled wins a season. But what about in conference? We still have eight conference games to fight through. If we are still last in conference in recruiting, even getting to 4-4 will be a pipe dream UNLESS Stoops becomes an awesome x's and o's coach, which he has yet to be. Recruiting seems better, but it still isn't good enough for the SEC.[/QUOTE

How do you propose he get players that are better than Bama, LSU, UGA, Fla, UT? It would be like telling ole miss bball coach to get better players than Ky, duke, unc, ul, etc....

 

[rmattox]

I think the key is to have zero expectations. My mistake is I thought they would take advantage of the easiest schedule we will ever have and that also we would start to show who we want to be on offense. From now on if people would only expect 3-4 wins a season we would all be better off, I know that's what I am looking forward to next year.

That's the position I take every year....and have been right more often than not.

 

[LowCountryCat]

How do you propose he get players that are better than Bama, LSU, UGA, Fla, UT? It would be like telling ole miss bball coach to get better players than Ky, duke, unc, ul, etc....

Isn't that Mark Stoops' job? Why he gets paid $3.25 million a year? Are you arguing that Stoops is not the best coach we could have gotten?

 

[rmattox]

Isn't that Mark Stoops' job? Why he gets paid $3.25 million a year? Are you arguing that Stoops is not the best coach we could have gotten?

I will argue that we could not have attracted the Football equivalent of a Calipari. I've been living and dying with this team for almost 50 years. In that time, I believe Curci gives us more hope than any of the other coaches we've had until CMS came along.
Tell me/us who you know (for certain) that would have taken the job that would have brought in more highly rated recruits than Stoops has. I don't have a lot of confidence in MB due to the JP debacle, but I believe he got lucky with CMS.

 

[MountainDoc]

I disagree with your conclusion that Stoops is getting better players, Erik. Better relative to what? The rest of the nation? Maybe. At best that guarantees us 3 or 4 scheduled wins a season. But what about in conference? We still have eight conference games to fight through. If we are still last in conference in recruiting, even getting to 4-4 will be a pipe dream UNLESS Stoops becomes an awesome x's and o's coach, which he has yet to be. Recruiting seems better, but it still isn't good enough for the SEC.

Better players than UK has ever had. He makes that point very clearly. So in your op on not only should we recruit better than UK has in the past we should out recruit Bama, LSU, FLORIDA, etc etc in years 2-3-4? Really? As it has been said over and over. This is a Process, there's no fast forward button. I dislike quite a few things in game I've seen with stoops. But don't kid yourselves he is the man for the job.

 

[Levibooty]

It looks to me like we are making progress although I do have some reservations about a coach or two. Do I wish progress was faster? Certainly I do I'm too old to not see the time slipping by. Some of the things I do see is we're winning games again, expecting a bowl bid rather than wishing for one, and beating some SEC teams we have been losing to.

The one thing I have seen though that makes me feel hopeful is this years recruitment of OL. I have never seen Kentucky have as much success recruiting a group of linemen like they have this year. That is elite caliber linemen all in one class that should have an impact for years to come. If we could recruit the same caliber of DL then I think Kentucky will rise to levels of competition the likes of which we have seen so precious little.

We have always been able to attract one member of a line who held great promise but that was normally the one and only lineman in that class. This year however we have been very successful in bringing enough high caliber talent to make an impact on the entire group of OL for an extended amount of time. Do that with the DL and then we will see Commonwealth rock consistently.

 

[LowCountryCat]

Better players than UK has ever had. He makes that point very clearly. So in your op on not only should we recruit better than UK has in the past we should out recruit Bama, LSU, FLORIDA, etc etc in years 2-3-4? Really? As it has been said over and over. This is a Process, there's no fast forward button. I dislike quite a few things in game I've seen with stoops. But don't kid yourselves he is the man for the job.

No, that's not my argument. I never said that. Why do you people continue to mischaracterize my posts?

The best Brooks ever brought us was 4-4 in conference. That'd be a win in my book. All you need to do is be middle of the pack in conference recruiting and you'd get there. 13th? No way.

 

[LowCountryCat]

I will argue that we could not have attracted the Football equivalent of a Calipari. I've been living and dying with this team for almost 50 years. In that time, I believe Curci gives us more hope than any of the other coaches we've had until CMS came along.
Tell me/us who you know (for certain) that would have taken the job that would have brought in more highly rated recruits than Stoops has. I don't have a lot of confidence in MB due to the JP debacle, but I believe he got lucky with CMS.

Unfortunately I don't have an answer. But I don't get paid a bonus for us going to a rinkydink bowl either. Barnhart should be held accountable for his decisions. He's not a football fan anyway.

 

[UKErik]

PrimeMF, reference better players, I'm referencing UK's roster. IMO, Stoops is upgrading UK's overall talent level in comparison to what Joker had done.

Is he getting better players than Alabama or Tennessee? No. Odds are strong he never will. Can he get good enough players to eventually be consistently competitive with those types of schools? Who knows, but his recruiting so far is promising. It's certainly progress.

GBB!!!

 

[Levibooty]

Unfortunately I don't have an answer. But I don't get paid a bonus for us going to a rinkydink bowl either. Barnhart should be held accountable for his decisions. He's not a football fan anyway.

There it is. How can a person rant about Barnhart if the football program is on the rise? Keep firing coaches thereby breeding failure until you can achieve your goal of retiring Barnhart. The agenda revealed.

 

[BARBQGRILLER]

Your hired to win in your conference period. Occ cupcake wins are meaningless . Barnhart hasn't a clue on this !

 

[ukalumni00]

A lot of good points in this thread. It really comes down to the KY Football fanbase (as a whole) are tired of losing. Winning cures about everything. Stoops knows it. At least for me, I want to see a team that will get out of their own way. I can't tolerate players saying half the team are on a different page, misalignments, stupid penalties, etc. In essence typical KY Football. Its time these things change and that is why the fans are upset right now.

 

[Poetax]

No, his team last year shouldn't have gone bowling. Nobody that I saw in preseason projected that team to go bowling. However, Stoops had the team in a position to do so. Dropped interceptions at Florida and Louisville cost Kentucky a postseason bid more than anything the staff did (or didn't do).

In league play, how often has Kentucky been favored? He has 18 league losses. How many came as favorites? Maybe one? If there is one, I can't remember it.

This season, UK has played eight games. UK has been in six. We might be having a completely different conversation had Baker caught the pass against Florida and Badet held on to the bomb against Auburn. Either way, the staff had Kentucky in position to win the games.

You think demanding wins is the trick? Because nobody else demands wins, so clearly, that's where UK needs to get better (LOL). UK needs to put some big boy jeans on? Maybe that'll do it? Yeah, because EVERY OTHER school in the league isn't wearing the vaunted big boy jeans.

What Kentucky needs to win is better players. Recruiting rankings suggest Mark Stoops is getting them. The fact that he can't win big in the sport of football with a bunch of frosh and sophomores (the guys he's recruited) makes him just like almost every coach in football history.

GBB!!!

Don't confuse them with the facts Eric, it just causes them headaches, lol.

 

[Poetax]

I disagree with your conclusion that Stoops is getting better players, Erik. Better relative to what? The rest of the nation? Maybe. At best that guarantees us 3 or 4 scheduled wins a season. But what about in conference? We still have eight conference games to fight through. If we are still last in conference in recruiting, even getting to 4-4 will be a pipe dream UNLESS Stoops becomes an awesome x's and o's coach, which he has yet to be. Recruiting seems better, but it still isn't good enough for the SEC.

I would agree that the depth and the youth is not SEC ready but when is a true or redshirt freshman ever going to be ready to play against 5 year seniors. It's like boys against men. Stoops and staff ha e made mistakes but in the end all the xxxs and ooos won't help players on the field make a great pass, catch a pass, or make a tackle, that's what you get with a depleted roster like he inherited.

 

[Mr Schwump]

Now hold on Erik. Calipari brings in 3-4 new guys a year and competes on the national level, surely Stoops doesn't need all those extra guys mucking up the sidelines.

 

[Deeeefense]

I appreciate your post Erik and you make some very good points. There is a deficiency of talent that was left this staff and to illustrate that consider the following. From the 2011 class the only two starters we have are Huguenin and Forest. From the 2012 class we have only 4 starters Foster, Swindell, Toth and Towles. There are a few more that are backups. Most everyone else off of those classes are no longer with the team for various reasons. So you have two recruiting classes that if you consider red-shirting should make up the bulk of our junior and senior roster contributing a total of 6 starters plus a few backups. Therein lies a big part of the problem.

Having said that from watching the last two games there appears to be some issues with certain players not exhibiting the type of effort and energy it takes to win games in the SEC or at least be competitive. Several of us have noticed this and commented on it. Freddie Maggard suggested that the team lackes "toughness". I trust his eye.

So there is more than one thing at work here to account for the otherwise inexplicable meltdown in performance the last two games. The good news is help is on the way, but some of this is going to require some coaching decisions, actions, changes etc. as well.

 

[Soupbean]

As usual good points Erik and I agree with most of what you say. I am a long timer and Stoops has given me more hope than ever before that we might make something happen here. He seems like a hard working genuine guy, the kind of guy we want to lead us to better times.

What we all have to keep in mind is he's learning too and he's not perfect but you can tell he's trying like hell. I've said before when you are dealing from behind with less talent there are really only two things you concentrate on first and that's getting better talent and building an identity of your team.

The first one I still believe and the numbers show he has done like never before. Without better athletes we have no chance period. He has at least laid the foundation for real improvement by doing what no coach has been able to do here before and that's bring in better players against all odds.

The second part I believe has fallen short of, not because he can't do it but because he's had so much to manage he's lost focus on the primary thing and that's building a true identity in your team. He is a tough, fiery, competitive guy and I would have hoped his team would have reflected that, but I'm not sure it has. Sometimes we play that way, sometimes we look as passive as can be. I think that's because he's trying to do to much with personnel, schemes, techniques etc instead of building first and foremost an attitude of pure no nonsense toughness and aggressiveness on both sides of the ball that reflects his style.

I know he's learning himself but he can seem a little timid and unsure of himself in games and I think that goes through the team. He's not yet comfortable having to manage all the other things a coach has to do, he's seems more comfortable just lining up and hitting somebody. That's the attitude I think he needs to get back to himself and instill in his team. Simplify things and get back to the most important thing first in football and that's teaching a no nonsense, hard nosed toughness and aggressive style and attitude first and foremost. Let it me your identity whether you're winning or losing by 30 and then watch the talent start building on top of that.

 

[LowCountryCat]

There it is. How can a person rant about Barnhart if the football program is on the rise? Keep firing coaches thereby breeding failure until you can achieve your goal of retiring Barnhart. The agenda revealed.

Oh, the football program is on the rise? Man, I had no idea. A 4 game losing streak, what a way to define 'rise.' I guess you'd like to keep the program mired in mediocrity. The agenda revealed.

 

[LowCountryCat]

PrimeMF, reference better players, I'm referencing UK's roster. IMO, Stoops is upgrading UK's overall talent level in comparison to what Joker had done.

Is he getting better players than Alabama or Tennessee? No. Odds are strong he never will. Can he get good enough players to eventually be consistently competitive with those types of schools? Who knows, but his recruiting so far is promising. It's certainly progress.

GBB!!!

If Joker's level was zero, anything above zero is progress, but it's meaningless in the W-L column unless the level starts approaching the middle of the pack in the SEC.

If the top 14 classes in the country were all SEC, and UK was 13th, we would still be struggling to win 6 games. We only schedule 3 cupcakes a year. We still have to beat the dirty birds and win 4 conference games to get to 8 wins.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

Over years? Man, do you hold a grudge. Sounds like a maturity issue. On the contrary, I'm discussing plenty, using examples, reasoning, even math. You're doing nothing but throwing feces. I'd LOVE it if you'd be civil to me for once in your life. Unfortunately your emotional attitude toward me prevents you from engaging me on the substance, so you just take personal jabs.

No, I think you'd bring some great discussion if you left out that last sentence poke or silly *** question you always like to add to the end of your posts...

Like earlier you said something like "are you arguing that Stoops isn't the best coach we could've gotten?" when you know damn well (because I think you are a smart enough dude) that he wasn't saying anything of the sort. That was just to stir the pot and cause a little drama.

We can start a discussion, that is fine.

The last 5 years:

5-7
2-10
2-10
5-7
4-4

Are we trending towards improvement? If you are unhappy with the staff, who would you target as a head coach and what record would you expect in year 3 if they started from the Joker years? Do you not think we have moved our recruiting into the margin of recruiting rankings error, as in if we are landing within 10-15 spots of the majority of the SEC don't you think that is close enough considering the subjectivity of recruiting service rankings?If we end the year at 6-6 or 7-5 will that pacify you and your criticisms on program improvement? (Because a 5-7 year would absolutely turn me to more of your side)

 

[cat888]

Losing brings out the worst in people, and it brings out the ridiculous as well. I'm surprised that Stoops is getting hammered to the extend that he is. I think people have forgotten where this program was when Mitch Barnhart pulled the plug on Joker Phillips. It's unfortunate. Looking at the Stoops timeline combined with what he's accomplished off the field, I have no idea why people aren't beyond excited to have him here (and frankly, I think a majority still are).

RECRUITING (rivals rankings)
1st class (29th)...I think any reasonable person would agree that Stoops and staff had precious little time to get much done. The result...a top 30 class. You could argue that no staff anywhere did a better job in Dec and Jan prior to signing day.
2nd class ((17th)...the best class in UK history. Ideally, these players would be redshirt freshman this year.
3rd class (35th)....a very solid class...UK only brought in 21 players.
4th class (currently 17th)....this class includes THREE 4-star offensive lineman.
Overall...I'd imagine his grade would be an A or high B with recruiting. Most important to remember, that first class was a minor miracle. The last two classes are truly Stoops' first two classes. Overall, these four classes represent the best four year "run" in my lifetime.

ON THE FIELD
2013: 2 wins
2014: 5 wins
2015: probably 6 or more wins
I know the "all that matters is the last game" mentality permeates sports these days, but losing big twice doesn't mean UK is doomed to finish that way. Getting absolutely pummeled isn't unique to Kentucky. Hell, even Oregon lost a home game by almost 50 this year. Anyway, big picture, Stoops has done exactly what we had hoped he would. UK has gotten better each year. IMO, it's important to appreciate that and to acknowledge it. No, he isn't contending for a league title. Then again, nobody thought he would be.

BLOWOUT LOSSES
One general comment a lot of fans make goes something like this....I can handle losing, but we should be competitive every time out. Really? With a roster that isn't even remotely complete? And it's tough for just about all schools to avoid getting pounded on occasion. UK fans are pissed because Stoops (with an inadequate roster) just got thumped back-to-back. Imagine how Georgia fans felt after a non-competitive loss to the Gators. Nebraska fans just watched PURDUE score 55 on the Huskers.

BOTTOM LINE
I think Stoops is right where he should be. That doesn't mean the staff can't do a better job (we've talked about the confused defense, eight men to return a punt, etc...), but don't forget the absolute disaster he inherited. In year two, he was a dropped INT at U of L away from going to a bowl game. This year, I think he'll win enough games to qualify for the postseason. Facilities are going to be amazing beginning next summer. Recruiting continues to be improved. UK has some very good young talent. Unfortunately, the "process" (yeah, I know, people that word) is just lengthy and difficult. With that being said, I like where the program is compared to 2012, and I see no reason to anticipate anything but continued improvement.

GBB!!!

Very Good Stoops is the only Coach beside Joker to sustain out of State connection. Joker brought in players from the South If Joker had had help the program could have been turned around under Brooks however you could count the recruits Brooks and his 2 former head coach Ast. brought in on one hand. Mumme brought in a few players and if not for the turmoil and cheating might have turned the program around I can still remember Curry's first radio show he brought his staff with him from Ala. and he says we going to recruit from Ky. North I wilted if you going to recruit the North hire Coaches from the North his whole crew brought Zero recruits from Ala. He did bring several from his home state of Georgia just not enough and set up a JUCO connection in California. It has made no sense not to have a full time Ast. from Ohio all time. Curci brought serval players from Florida when he first came but could not sustain his connection.. We still are not recruiting like teams like Tenn. When they play young players they are 4 and 5 star players regardless how the players are rated. Expecting these Young Coaches to come in and win with young players against more talented young players may be expecting too much. Stoops and Ast's are bringing more depth in there recruiting then has ever been at Ky. give them a chance to develops these young players as they themselves develop.

 

[LowCountryCat]

No, I think you'd bring some great discussion if you left out that last sentence poke or silly *** question you always like to add to the end of your posts...

Like earlier you said something like "are you arguing that Stoops isn't the best coach we could've gotten?" when you know damn well (because I think you are a smart enough dude) that he wasn't saying anything of the sort. That was just to stir the pot and cause a little drama.

We can start a discussion, that is fine.

The last 5 years:

5-7
2-10
2-10
5-7
4-4

Are we trending towards improvement? If you are unhappy with the staff, who would you target as a head coach and what record would you expect in year 3 if they started from the Joker years? Do you not think we have moved our recruiting into the margin of recruiting rankings error, as in if we are landing within 10-15 spots of the majority of the SEC don't you think that is close enough considering the subjectivity of recruiting service rankings?If we end the year at 6-6 or 7-5 will that pacify you and your criticisms on program improvement? (Because a 5-7 year would absolutely turn me to more of your side)

You and I may very well have different views on the definition of 'improvement.' Overall, 6-6 would be an improvement on last year. But it should not be satisfactory IMHO. We still aren't competitive in meaningful conference games. We barely beat EKU and ULM. I know that seems like a reverse moral victory, but I am concerned about the 'way' we are playing as well. We folded like a cheap suit in the last two. If we make a good showing against Georgia maybe that's a trend. But Stoops' expectations should be HIGHER than that of Brooks, who only brought us one 4-4 conference record.

So I'll concede your point, even though you're counting your chickens, that 6-6 is an improvement. I would like to get your take on how competitive Stoops should ultimately make us, and how our current trend of recruiting is going to get us there. That's the crux of my argument: 13th in conference recruiting requires an exceptional coach to 'coach them up,' and Stoops doesn't appear to have that 'magic.'

 

[irishcat1965]

I disagree with your conclusion that Stoops is getting better players, Erik. Better relative to what? The rest of the nation? Maybe. At best that guarantees us 3 or 4 scheduled wins a season. But what about in conference? We still have eight conference games to fight through. If we are still last in conference in recruiting, even getting to 4-4 will be a pipe dream UNLESS Stoops becomes an awesome x's and o's coach, which he has yet to be. Recruiting seems better, but it still isn't good enough for the SEC.

I'm going to make this easy for you. In 2015, six of the top ten classes in the nation were SEC teams. That is the top ten in the nation. That's about half the conference. Yet you want a coach to come in and get a higher than top 15 classes with the dumpster fire that Joker left. It's not going to happen, I don't give a crap who the coach is. Now can the classes build to that level eventually? Maybe. But you have to build on 6 or 7 win seasons to get the momentum to get to that point.

 

[NavyCat88]

Better talent is better for us regardless of rankings. If we get a few more bigger, faster, stronger, types...it can make a difference in depth and at crunch time IF AND ONLY IF the coaching staff has developed the players, game planned and can make adjustments in-game. This is where I am most disappointed. We don't look like we're prepared on the field or the sidelines. Hapless and hopeless blowouts against unranked mid-level conference foes--FCS quality/not P5. We don't have Bama or LSU on the schedule this year, and we may thank heavens for that. I'm not sure teams with a shot at the FBS playoffs would take their foot of the gas as did MSU and UT. The MSU Bulldogs and Vols both invoked the "mercy rule" and that in and of itself is very telling in year 3.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

You and I may very well have different views on the definition of 'improvement.' Overall, 6-6 would be an improvement on last year. But it should not be satisfactory IMHO. We still aren't competitive in meaningful conference games. We barely beat EKU and ULM. I know that seems like a reverse moral victory, but I am concerned about the 'way' we are playing as well. We folded like a cheap suit in the last two. If we make a good showing against Georgia maybe that's a trend. But Stoops' expectations should be HIGHER than that of Brooks, who only brought us one 4-4 conference record.

So I'll concede your point, even though you're counting your chickens, that 6-6 is an improvement. I would like to get your take on how competitive Stoops should ultimately make us, and how our current trend of recruiting is going to get us there. That's the crux of my argument: 13th in conference recruiting requires an exceptional coach to 'coach them up,' and Stoops doesn't appear to have that 'magic.'

Stoops doesn't have the gimmick magic for a quick fix. He may not even have the slow and steady route secured, that is yet to be seen.

I do think demanding or expecting 7-8 regular season wins in year 3 is unrealistic. His first full recruiting class are true sophomores or RS freshman...the upper class talent is severely lacking - and most of it comes from Stoops Jucos (which should never be expected to carry a program)...we maybe had OVC level talent when he got here...maybe OVC

Ultimately, you want to make it to Atlanta as East champions like Missouri was able to do...I think 8 regular season wins+ bowl win by year 5 would be a realistic, attainable goal...those would be Stoops guys, under Stoops development (coaches and players)...if you don't get there then I think you'd be right in that we are just striving for mediocrity.

 

[JasonS.]

Kentucky in the F/+ ratings nationally.

2012: 88th
2013: 97th
2014: 68th
2015: 89th

We may well get to a bowl game this year, but we're just not very good right now. We're demonstratively worse than last year against a much easier schedule.

Doesn't mean Stoops isn't the guy. But it's certainly concerning.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

Kentucky in the F/+ ratings nationally.

2012: 88th
2013: 97th
2014: 68th
2015: 89th

We may well get to a bowl game this year, but we're just not very good right now. We're demonstratively worse than last year against a much easier schedule.

Doesn't mean Stoops isn't the guy. But it's certainly concerning.

I would say this years schedule is end loaded with winnable games, the reverse of last year. UK should improve in all statistical categories against Charlotte, Vandy and UL...and if UGA has throw in the towel that will help as well.

Then again, we didn't pad our stats against ULL and EKU, so you never really know.

 

[bthaunert]

Always fun debating where we are as a program, where we might go and if what we are doing works. Recruiting is often brought up as something people see as a positive while others believe we have made progress, but still are behind where we need to be to comepete in the SEC. Instead of looking at the 3 classes individually, if you look at them together and compare them to teams in the SEC we actually play. Why compare it to teams like Auburn and LSU if we don't play either of those teams until 2020. So, over the last 3 recruiting classes, if you look at 5 stars, 4 stars and 3 stars we come it at 10th in the SEC, above Mississippi State, Arkansas, Missouri and Vandy and a spot behind USC.

Starting next year, we will have better talent on the field than all 4 of our OOC opponants, plus 3 of our SEC opponents (MSU, Mizzou, Vandy) and a step below South Carolina. So, we have recruited to have enough talent on the field to 100% be able to be better than or competitive with 8 of our opponants. That puts us in such a better place than we were just a few years back. Based on Rivals, here is where each team stands:

1. Alabama
14 *****
41 ****
21 ***

2. LSU
08 *****
37 ****
23 ***

3. Auburn
07 *****
36 ****
28 ***

4. Tennessee
06 *****
34 ****
39 ***

5. Georgia
03 *****
39 ****
38 ***

6. Florida
05 *****
31 ****
34 ***

7. Texas A&M
04 *****
36 ****
32 ***

8. Ole Miss
03 *****
22 ****
46 ***

9. South Carolina
00 *****
29 ****
41 ***

10. Kentucky
00 *****
15 ****
51 ***

11. Mississippi State
01 *****
10 ****
51 ***

12. Arkansas
00 *****
14 ****
46 ***

13. Missouri
00 *****
09 ****
53 ***

14. Vandy
00 *****
11 ****
41 ***

So, the talent is coming in to be much more competive and match the talent of most of our opponants. Now, we have to see what the staff can do with that talent.

 

[308955]

Over years? Man, do you hold a grudge. Sounds like a maturity issue. On the contrary, I'm discussing plenty, using examples, reasoning, even math. You're doing nothing but throwing feces. I'd LOVE it if you'd be civil to me for once in your life. Unfortunately your emotional attitude toward me prevents you from engaging me on the substance, so you just take personal jabs.

You may be using all of those things, but context eludes you. Every school in the country is trying to improve recruiting and the reality for Kentucky is that getting to the middle of the pack in the SEC is very unlikely. Considering things like tradition, recent success and in-state talent, what are the six or seven schools in the SEC that UK should consistently our recruit? It is a pretty tough list to create. Similarly, you degrade lesser bowl games and have classified the Music City Bowl as irrelevant while trumpeting the work James Franklin in other threads. Independently the posts are fine, but when considering that the pinnacle James Franklin's career is winning the Music City Bowl (which you deem irrelevant) one or both of your posts lose validity. Even when you point Franklin's SEC record as evidence of the job he did it must be considered that Tenn, Fl, Miss and even UK were putting out some of their worst teams in the last decade at that time. Franklin still lost conference games by 3, 4, 5, 7 touchdowns and only beat one ranked team. Your posts continue to get "mischaracterized" because nothing in this sport happens in a vacuum. Sure we want to recruit better and have top notch coaching, but even Urban Meyer and Nick Saban are trying to accomplish the same things. It is not easy to accomplish anywhere, particularly from where Mark Stoops started.