MCHS CCL 2017?

[emillika]

Some of you may be getting your wish.. I'm hearing that MCHS will be playing Mount Carmel and Brother Rice in 2017. Stevie declined for week 2?!?!

My first thought was why not just play in the Blue in 2017? I think long-term that would be a bad move for Montini but 2016/2017 would have been fun.

Anyone able to confirm?

 

[Bowie50]

I spoke with a buddy of mine who is a high-level coach at MCHS and he is convinced that they will never join the Blue.

 

[Simon "GHOST' Riley]

Some of you may be getting your wish.. I'm hearing that MCHS will be playing Mount Carmel and Brother Rice in 2017. Stevie declined for week 2?!?!

My first thought was why not just play in the Blue in 2017? I think long-term that would be a bad move for Montini but 2016/2017 would have been fun.

Anyone able to confirm?

emilika,

I know LA is hosting SF next year in week 4

 

[Wassup13_rivals219252]

My first thought was why not just play in the Blue in 2017? I think long-term that would be a bad move for Montini but 2016/2017 would have been fun.

Anyone able to confirm?

I have always felt Montini would have to get enrollment levels up to around 1100 true enrollment to consistently play in the Blue. Right now Montini has the lowest enrollment in the CCL Green.

In the Blue, Loyola is 3 times the enrollment of Montini, Mt. Carmel, Brother Rice and St. Rita are 2 times the enrollment of Montini and Providence is 1.5 times the enrollment of Montini. I do think that this year and next year you have a team that can compete in the Blue but still would have trouble with the top teams in the Blue.

Also it's not easy to keep the same talent level year after year at Montini. I mean every year it seems like you lose one or two very good players to either OPRF, WV or AC. Although we do get our share of top players coming to Montini. I think there could be a drop off in talent after the next couple of years and then Montini will have to regroup to get back to the same level. Therefore I would not want to go to the Blue unless Montini were at a true enrollment level around 1100 students.

How about one of those tough Ohio teams for week 2 or Rockhurst in Kansas City, MO next year?

Wassup

 

[jbcatch22]

I agree with you Wassup. If I'm correct I think Montini only have 680 kids in the entire school and half of them are girls. There are three other teams in the green division larger then Montini so one of them I would think logically would move to Blue.

I'll be surprised if Montini doesn't fight moving up to the blue division. Them moving up would not benefit them or their players at all.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

Bronco is not movin up...

 

[UlbKA91]

Reading Wassup correctly, MCHS has a pretty-wide recruiting base (upper-income bougie and remnant Westchester and Lombard/Villa Park I could understand, but out west as far as AC and WV?). WRT Blue vs. Green, I still say take advantage of St. Rita's current troubles, put them out "west" in the Green for a while, trading them for both DLS and Fenwick. (Mac would be #6 Green) At least one of those 2 dodgers will go 1-4 and have the chance, if they run table against remaining opponents, to be playoff eligible.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I have always felt Montini would have to get enrollment levels up to around 1100 true enrollment to consistently play in the Blue.... I would not want to go to the Blue unless Montini were at a true enrollment level around 1100 students.

The three smallest schools in the ESCC are MCC, JCA and Naz. Have you noticed that JCA and Naz are the most competitive schools within that conference over the past two seasons and that JCA has been a consistent pre-eminent program within that conference ever since it joined a few decades ago?

2014 #7
2013 #6
2012 #5
2010 #8

The above numbers correspond to where Edgy ranked Montini in his top 25 Chicagoland rankings at the end of each year. These are regardless of class size rankings. Couldn't find one for 2011 which is why it's blank. But, 2011 was Montini's third straight 5A title, so I'm sure if I could find it, Montini would have been ranked in the top ten.

Am I the only one who finds it preposterous that anyone could think that the CCL Blue is too competitive for a school that has finished in the top ten regardless of class size rankings for the past five straight years? Am I the only one left scratching my head because a team that has been in the 5A title game in the last six consecutive years (winning four of them), seems to be ducking placement in a division because they think it would be too difficult for them?

Wow. Just wow.

This just seems so out of character for a school that goes out of its way to schedule the toughest non-conference competition it can find. Effectively, Montini is subordinating the needs of the conference to its desire to schedule tough non-conference foes.

 

[Dino brown]

The three smallest schools in the ESCC are MCC, JCA and Naz. Have you noticed that JCA and Naz are the most competitive schools within that conference over the past two seasons and that JCA has been a consistent pre-eminent program within that conference ever since it joined a few decades ago?

2014 #7
2013 #6
2012 #5
2010 #8

The above numbers correspond to where Edgy ranked Montini in his top 25 Chicagoland rankings at the end of each year. These are regardless of class size rankings. Couldn't find one for 2011 which is why it's blank. But, 2011 was Montini's third straight 5A title, so I'm sure if I could find it, Montini would have been ranked in the top ten.

Am I the only one who finds it preposterous that anyone could think that the CCL Blue is too competitive for a school that has finished in the top ten regardless of class size rankings for the past five straight years? Am I the only one left scratching my head because a team that has been in the 5A title game in the last six consecutive years (winning four of them), seems to be ducking placement in a division because they think it would be too difficult for them?

Wow. Just wow.

This just seems so out of character for a school that goes out of its way to schedule the toughest non-conference competition it can find. Effectively, Montini is subordinating the needs of the conference to its desire to schedule tough non-conference foes.

Couldnt say it any better.

 

[Wassup13_rivals219252]

Reading Wassup correctly, MCHS has a pretty-wide recruiting base (upper-income bougie and remnant Westchester.

I don't think too many come from Westchester. I can only think of 3 including the Gorrell brothers and J Johnson for one year and that was several years ago. I don't think there have been any Westchester kids on the team for a couple years. The one who went to AC I believe is from Elmhurst.

 

[Wassup13_rivals219252]

The three smallest schools in the ESCC are MCC, JCA and Naz. Have you noticed that JCA and Naz are the most competitive schools within that conference over the past two seasons and that JCA has been a consistent pre-eminent program within that conference ever since it joined a few decades ago?

Am I the only one who finds it preposterous that anyone could think that the CCL Blue is too competitive for a school that has finished in the top ten regardless of class size rankings for the past five straight years? Am I the only one left scratching my head because a team that has been in the 5A title game in the last six consecutive years (winning four of them), seems to be ducking placement in a division because they think it would be too difficult for them?

Wow. Just wow.

This just seems so out of character for a school that goes out of its way to schedule the toughest non-conference competition it can find. Effectively, Montini is subordinating the needs of the conference to its desire to schedule tough non-conference foes.

Ramblinman,

It's easy to say this when you come from a school like Loyola which is 3 times the enrollment of Montini. I mean you could have merged Joliet Catholic, Montini and Driscoll together with around just under 30 state championships and they still would be a smaller school than Loyola.

What if I said Loyola should join St. Xavier's conference on the south side? Enrollment = Depth and what I think gets looked over more than anything on the boards is "depth" which is a big key in football. If you were to merge St. Francis and Montini together so the enrollments are more equal then I would say go for it.

If enrollment level is not a factor in football, then let's get rid of all 8 classes and make them only one class.

I don't see JCA, MCC or Naz (all Catholic schools in Chicagoland) asking to go to the Blue conference. In my mind, I don't even see Coach Leonard from SHG jumping to go to the Blue either if his team was in Chicagoland either.

Isn't it enough Montini created their own rule which is known as the "success factor" in the state of Illinois.

Wassup

 

[pjjp]

If Montini went to the Blue, they would need to:

1. Lighten the non-con schedule. There would be no need to schedule as difficult of opponents as they do now. Provi makes this mistake too many years.
2. Get more transfers. I have faith they could do so, if they made it an even higher priority.

 

[Wassup13_rivals219252]

If Montini went to the Blue, they would need to:

1. Lighten the non-con schedule. There would be no need to schedule as difficult of opponents as they do now. Provi makes this mistake too many years.
2. Get more transfers. I have faith they could do so, if they made it an even higher priority.

Good Points! If #2 is true then that may convert my thinking but the economy is tough right now and I don't think it would happen.

 

[JCHILLTOPPERS]

If Montini went to the Blue, they would need to:

1. Lighten the non-con schedule. There would be no need to schedule as difficult of opponents as they do now. Provi makes this mistake too many years.
2. Get more transfers. I have faith they could do so, if they made it an even higher priority.

My predictions this year, if Bronco was in the Blue:

1-0 Win over Flyer
2-0 Win over MS
3-0 Win over Rita
4-0 Win over PC
5-0 Win over cross-over
6-0 Win over cross-over
7-0 Win over MC (the only year of the last several i give Bronco the nod)
8-0 win over Rice
8-1 Substantial loss to LA


However this is not the typical year...Just my opinion on this season.

For me however, it really comes down to roster sizes and the ability of a team to overcome injury and not get fatigued over the course of the season. I am confident Bronco could compete year in and year out, but at the same time, it's not sound reasoning to just ignore the differences in roster sizes and the effects it has on a game. It's one thing to rank Bronco 5 ROCS, and say in a one game situation, Bronco could be every team but 4....and another thing to argue they could make it through an 8a playoff.

JCA's team is very talented this season - one of their best in some time. That said, their roster is literally (really literally) half of what it was ten years ago (next year even smaller). This JCA team could absolutely compete with just about every other JCA title team - in a one game scenario - but how many games would this team win, when considering attrition against say the 2004 team, if they played 9 weeks in a row. I think that difference is important to consider and should not be lost in this argument...just switching montin and teams in the Blue in an average Blue year.

 

[emillika]

If just 25% of the kids that look at/visit Montini with their hand out expecting a "full ride" actually enrolled I'd be all for the Blue. Just in the last 3 years I've been involved you'd be suprised by the names I could name of families who thought that was "how it worked".

 

[pjjp]

If just 25% of the kids that look at/visit Montini with their hand out expecting a "full ride" actually enrolled I'd be all for the Blue. Just in the last 3 years I've been involved you'd be suprised by the names I could name of families who thought that was "how it worked".

And why is that thinking prevalent? You think it could be that that's the culture and reputation that Montini has cultivated?

 

[TeeOH_rivals219717]

If Montini went to the Blue, they would need to:

1. Lighten the non-con schedule. There would be no need to schedule as difficult of opponents as they do now. Provi makes this mistake too many years.
2. Get more transfers. I have faith they could do so, if they made it an even higher priority.

Point number one sounds good but there will be very few, if any takers from a less competitive non conference school. Benet walked away a few years back and they're not a guaranteed win, so you think a IC or Viater want to pick them up or even a Fenton? They have no choice but to search out a competitive school to schedule

 

[emillika]

And why is that thinking prevalent? You think it could be that that's the culture and reputation that Montini has cultivated?

I'd love to have a beer with people who repeat these stories to see if they are first hand knowledge or they are just repeating what Betty's uncles, aunts, cousin from Alaska told them.

If this is the culture then why didn't all these D1 kids end up at Montini on a free ride? Truth is once the parents find out they been given bad information from Betty's kinfolk they settle for the in-district option... but hey what do I know.

 

[TeeOH_rivals219717]

And why is that thinking prevalent? You think it could be that that's the culture and reputation that Montini has cultivated?

More likely the reputation that has been foisted on them from all the people complaining about the unfair advantage they have. But the college level facilities HF offers is not of any consequence

 

[pjjp]

More likely the reputation that has been foisted on them from all the people complaining about the unfair advantage they have. But the college level facilities HF offers is not of any consequence

Good point. John Rhode should have gone to H-F after he left Marian Catholic eh?

 

[Shep44]

The three smallest schools in the ESCC are MCC, JCA and Naz. Have you noticed that JCA and Naz are the most competitive schools within that conference over the past two seasons and that JCA has been a consistent pre-eminent program within that conference ever since it joined a few decades ago?

2014 #7
2013 #6
2012 #5
2010 #8

The above numbers correspond to where Edgy ranked Montini in his top 25 Chicagoland rankings at the end of each year. These are regardless of class size rankings. Couldn't find one for 2011 which is why it's blank. But, 2011 was Montini's third straight 5A title, so I'm sure if I could find it, Montini would have been ranked in the top ten.

Am I the only one who finds it preposterous that anyone could think that the CCL Blue is too competitive for a school that has finished in the top ten regardless of class size rankings for the past five straight years? Am I the only one left scratching my head because a team that has been in the 5A title game in the last six consecutive years (winning four of them), seems to be ducking placement in a division because they think it would be too difficult for them?

Wow. Just wow.

This just seems so out of character for a school that goes out of its way to schedule the toughest non-conference competition it can find. Effectively, Montini is subordinating the needs of the conference to its desire to schedule tough non-conference foes.

Why do Loyola and St. Rita keep asking to break-up the blue if what you are saying is true? If Montini is that tough, then why would you want to add another tough game to the schedule? Rumors are they want to break up the blue because certain schools want to get out of 5 tough games a year. Is there a reason why Loyola dropped Montini in week 2, 4 years ago?

 

[Wassup13_rivals219252]

I think Loyola dropped Montini because they had a game in Ireland but I could be wrong. At that time Loyola seemed to have Montini's number just like Loyola then had a hard time playing Maine South. Montini then picked up LWE on the schedule. That LWE team was very good led by a great QB named Tom Fuessel who could really run and LWE went undefeated all the way to the 7A state title game when they lost to GBW.

Watch this run by Tom Fuessel where he cuts across the field twice and out runs every Benet defender in the 7A playoffs against Benet 39 seconds into the video...



Montini gave LWE their second toughest contest of the year next to GBW.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Why do Loyola and St. Rita keep asking to break-up the blue if what you are saying is true? If Montini is that tough, then why would you want to add another tough game to the schedule? Rumors are they want to break up tIs there a reason why Loyola dropped Montini in week 2, 4 years ago?

And the source of these rumors and claims are...??? I have no idea if Loyola dropped Montini four years ago. As I recall, the year after our 2 yr contract with MCHS, we picked up a week two game in Dublin vs. Dallas Jesuit. After dispatching with Montini for two years in a row in 2010 and 2011, I hope you realize how silly it looks to imply that Loyola was somehow ducking the Bronco.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Ramblinman,

It's easy to say this when you come from a school like Loyola which is 3 times the enrollment of Montini. I mean you could have merged Joliet Catholic, Montini and Driscoll together with around just under 30 state championships and they still would be a smaller school than Loyola.

What if I said Loyola should join St. Xavier's conference on the south side? Enrollment = Depth and what I think gets looked over more than anything on the boards is "depth" which is a big key in football. If you were to merge St. Francis and Montini together so the enrollments are more equal then I would say go for it.

If enrollment level is not a factor in football, then let's get rid of all 8 classes and make them only one class.

I don't see JCA, MCC or Naz (all Catholic schools in Chicagoland) asking to go to the Blue conference. In my mind, I don't even see Coach Leonard from SHG jumping to go to the Blue either if his team was in Chicagoland either.

Isn't it enough Montini created their own rule which is known as the "success factor" in the state of Illinois.

Wassup

Do you hear JCA saying that they won't play in the same conference as Marist because Marist is almost three times their size? Do you hear Alleman saying they won't play in the Western Big Six with a school like Moline that is five times larger than Alleman?

Really, this is shocking to hear this kind of talk from Bronco fans.

 

[Wassup13_rivals219252]

I know JCA will play anybody anywhere anytime but don't think they want a piece of playing in the Blue. Why don't you ask them? Really the best thing to do for everybody would be to split up the Blue teams into other conferences.

Moline and Marist are not Loyola. Wasn't Marist once in the Blue? I'm not good with CCL history but I thought they were at least in the CCL.

 

[Jiggs]

Do you hear JCA saying that they won't play in the same conference as Marist because Marist is almost three times their size? Do you hear Alleman saying they won't play in the Western Big Six with a school like Moline that is five times larger than Alleman?

Ramblin
You bring up several good points;

As to the Loyola Montini series, Montini took their beatings and were not competitive with Loyola in either game.

As to comparing the ESSC to the Blue, come on, the two conferences are not on the same level. Montini could easily compete in the ESSC, as to the Blue, year in year out, forget it. Montini doesn't have the depth.

For example, prior to the second Loyola game Montini's starting qb was injured in practice. A junior WR was drafted as QB. Being that Montini's offense was built around Westerkamp, well you know the rest of the story.

To many it may not be an acceptable reason for Montini not to compete in the Blue, but Montini simply does not have the depth to compete in the Blue year in year out.

 

[Wassup13_rivals219252]

Ramblin

To many it may not be an acceptable reason for Montini not to compete in the Blue, but Montini simply does not have the depth to compete in the Blue year in year out.

Bronco Man,

Well said. I tried to explain the "depth" issue much earlier in the thread but you explained it much better. I think sometimes the supporters of the larger enrollment schools think if any player goes down they can be easily replaced without losing much because they have around 2500-3000 students in their school. If you did not attend a small enrollment school with 700 students then I guess they just don't understand this concept.

Wassup

 

[Jiggs]

I believe that Montini's coaching philosophy is that they are not afraid to lose some games, as long as they do not lose more than 4. They believe that if they play a couple of traditionally good programs initially, win or lose, that will go a long way to telling the coaching staff what kind of team they have. It also allows the coaching staff to make personnel changes early on, rather than wait until conference play to find out the teams weaknesses and strengths.

Not all teams share that philosophy. I believe one that does is JCA.

Because the stars align and Montini goes on a streak, it does not mean that Montini is ready to compete on a regular basis with the traditional football powers of the Blue.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Ramblin
You bring up several good points;

As to the Loyola Montini series, Montini took their beatings and were not competitive with Loyola in either game.

As to comparing the ESSC to the Blue, come on, the two conferences are not on the same level. Montini could easily compete in the ESSC, as to the Blue, year in year out, forget it. Montini doesn't have the depth.

For example, prior to the second Loyola game Montini's starting qb was injured in practice. A junior WR was drafted as QB. Being that Montini's offense was built around Westerkamp, well you know the rest of the story.

To many it may not be an acceptable reason for Montini not to compete in the Blue, but Montini simply does not have the depth to compete in the Blue year in year out.

Please. You know darn well that Montini does not have a typical varsity roster. I see from the MCHS website that it has a 53 man roster this year. PC's site publishes a 61 man roster. Do you hear PC whining about playing in Loyola 's division? Or are you now going to try to convince me of a huge difference between a 53 and a 61 man roster?

Again, Montini routinely finishes among the top ten programs in the Chicago area year in and year out for the past six years. That's more than enough reason to think that the Bronco would be well placed in the Blue.

 

[jwarigaku]

So Ramblin,

Perhaps if the Blue wants Montini to move so badly every team in the blue should cut to a 60 man roster, problem solved with such a compromise. Will all blue teams agree to such a stipulation?

Please. You know darn well that Montini does not have a typical varsity roster. I see from the MCHS website that it has a 53 man roster this year. PC's site publishes a 61 man roster. Do you hear PC whining about playing in Loyola 's division? Or are you now going to try to convince me of a huge difference between a 53 and a 61 man roster?

Again, Montini routinely finishes among the top ten programs in the Chicago area year in and year out for the past six years. That's more than enough reason to think that the Bronco would be well placed in the Blue.

 

[mc140]

So Ramblin,

Perhaps if the Blue wants Montini to move so badly every team in the blue should cut to a 60 man roster, problem solved with such a compromise. Will all blue teams agree to such a stipulation?

There is no difference in terms of depth between a 50 and 75 man high school roster.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

So Ramblin,

Perhaps if the Blue wants Montini to move so badly every team in the blue should cut to a 60 man roster, problem solved with such a compromise. Will all blue teams agree to such a stipulation?

No. So the answer instead is for Montini to stay where they are, play a real tough non-con schedule and breeze through their division unchallenged. They already have beaten one Blue team handily this year, and their roster size is basically the same as another Blue team. You may think this is reasonable, but it wouldnt be the first time that reason escapes you.

 

[Thedoctor50]

No. So the answer instead is for Montini to stay where they are, play a real tough non-con schedule and breeze through their division unchallenged. They already have beaten one Blue team handily this year, and their roster size is basically the same as another Blue team. You may think this is reasonable, but it wouldnt be the first time that reason escapes you.

What do you mean by "division"? If you mean conference, no Montini does not breeze thru that. Too lazy to look it up, ( I know others know this off the top of there heads), but Montini has not consistently won their conferernce title. If you mean playoffs, the Bronce have no way breezed through, there has been at least one sometime two or more games that could have gone the other way.

As for roster size, that means nothing. There are a fair number of players that, while having the heart, do not have the talent/size to compete against The Blue.

 

[jwarigaku]

Ramblin,

Nor would it be the first time you want your cake and to eat it too!

No. So the answer instead is for Montini to stay where they are, play a real tough non-con schedule and breeze through their division unchallenged. They already have beaten one Blue team handily this year, and their roster size is basically the same as another Blue team. You may think this is reasonable, but it wouldnt be the first time that reason escapes you.

 

[jwarigaku]

MC140,

I don't agree but if you insist that to be true than there should be nothing but advantage to the other larger schools to cut to 50-60 if they want to impose Blue on Montini.

There is no difference in terms of depth between a 50 and 75 man high school roster.

 

[montini81]

I have always felt Montini would have to get enrollment levels up to around 1100 true enrollment to consistently play in the Blue. Right now Montini has the lowest enrollment in the CCL Green.

In the Blue, Loyola is 3 times the enrollment of Montini, Mt. Carmel, Brother Rice and St. Rita are 2 times the enrollment of Montini and Providence is 1.5 times the enrollment of Montini. I do think that this year and next year you have a team that can compete in the Blue but still would have trouble with the top teams in the Blue.

Also it's not easy to keep the same talent level year after year at Montini. I mean every year it seems like you lose one or two very good players to either OPRF, WV or AC. Although we do get our share of top players coming to Montini. I think there could be a drop off in talent after the next couple of years and then Montini will have to regroup to get back to the same level. Therefore I would not want to go to the Blue unless Montini were at a true enrollment level around 1100 students.

How about one of those tough Ohio teams for week 2 or Rockhurst in Kansas City, MO next year?

Wassup

Montini could compete this year and next in the Blue. 2017 would be difficult considering Montini has 22-25 on the Freshman team.

 

[RRH1]

Ramblin,

Nor would it be the first time you want your cake and to eat it too!

These schools like Nazareth and Montini can play with anyone because of all their talent. I'll take all the D1 prospects they have over a extra bodies most of the other schools have.

 

[mc140]

MC140,

I don't agree but if you insist that to be true than there should be nothing but advantage to the other larger schools to cut to 50-60 if they want to impose Blue on Montini.

I don't give a **** what they do with Montini. I have stated multiple times either leave it the same or split up by geography. No one will join the blue.

There is no tangible difference in high school football between the 51st person on a roster and the 75th person.

 

[JCHILLTOPPERS]

I don't give a **** what they do with Montini. I have stated multiple times either leave it the same or split up by geography. No one will join the blue.

There is no tangible difference in high school football between the 51st person on a roster and the 75th person.

I've seen a tangible difference. that's an easy point to assert when you've got 75 people on your roster. Years ago, I would have agreed with you 100 percent. I agree with you that perhaps 51-75 are of the same caliber but i think you are missing a more subtle point.

If you have 75 kids on your team, it likely means that you are drawing from a larger pool of students. simple statistics say that, if each player were assigned a grade, the school that produces 75 players will have more A and more B players on your team than the school with just 51 players....and that matters.


to your other point though, why would anyone join the blue? It's fine the way it is sans the bad cross-overs.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

IQUOTE="Thedoctor50, post: 32903, member: 1358"]What do you mean by "division"? If you mean conference, no Montini does not breeze thru that. Too lazy to look it up, ( I know others know this off the top of there heads), but Montini has not consistently won their conferernce title. If you mean playoffs, the Bronce have no way breezed through, there has been at least one sometime two or more games that could have gone the other way.

As for roster size, that means nothing. There are a fair number of players that, while having the heart, do not have the talent/size to compete against The Blue.[/QUOTE]


The CCL is a conference. Within that conference, there are four divisions basically aligned from top to bottom according to level of competitiveness, with the CCL Blue division being the strongest. Despite being a perennial top ten program, and despite six straight appearances in the 5A title game, and despite a roster size similar to last year's 7A state champ from the CCL Blue, and despite a very recent dominant victory over a CCL Blue team, the Montini apologists are arguing that Montini does not belong in the CCL Blue because it doesn't have the roster depth to do so.

Again, wow.