It appears the Braves aquired the CF/leadoff hitter they wanted without giving up "the untouchables." Congratulations America's Team - this feels like a winning trade, </p>
Michael Bourn to the Braves
- Thread starter Notch Johnson dawg
- Start date
It appears the Braves aquired the CF/leadoff hitter they wanted without giving up "the untouchables." Congratulations America's Team - this feels like a winning trade, </p>
It appears the Braves aquired the CF/leadoff hitter they wanted without giving up "the untouchables." Congratulations America's Team - this feels like a winning trade, </p>
The Braves biggest problem was the leadoff position and speed. Looks like they addressed both with Bourn. Crazy the Astros would trade Pence and Bourn in their own division.
So the lineup will probably look something like..
1) Bourn
2) Prado
3) Chipper (when healthy)
4) McCann
5) Freeman
6) Uggla
7) Heyward
8) Gonzalez
9) Pitcher
I wish they'd leave Heyward at 6. I don't like him batting lower in the order, because he gets no protection down there.
So the lineup will probably look something like..
1) Bourn
2) Prado
3) Chipper (when healthy)
4) McCann
5) Freeman
6) Uggla
7) Heyward
8) Gonzalez
9) Pitcher
I wish they'd leave Heyward at 6. I don't like him batting lower in the order, because he gets no protection down there.
We gave up none of the Big 4 pitchers we have in the minors, and we got the leadoff guy we needed. If Uggla and Freeman can stay hot, Bourn getting on base from the leadoff spot could really spark this team to score runs. We can't score runs against the Phillies, and if we want to beat them, we have to get guys on base. Bourn will hopefully serve as that guy.
He is also a guy we may can hold on to for a few years, so I think that is an added bonus for him not necessarily being a rental player.
He is also a guy we may can hold on to for a few years, so I think that is an added bonus for him not necessarily being a rental player.
The Braves problems are against left-handed pitchers, and Bourn really is barely an upgrade over Schafer against them. For that, they gave up Schafer, and three prospects that would be top10 prospects for most teams. I would rather have given up a little less for Beltran, who would have been a much greater upgrade. None of these were the 'big 4', but the 'big 4' is where we had the logjam. trading these guys creates holes down the line, AND now (starters in 2013+, RH reliever and backup CF now and 2012).
They now have Jonathan Singleton from the Phillies as their first baseman of the future, Jose Altuve at second, possibly Brett Wallace at third or possibly as trade bait, and now they have Jordan Shafer and J D Martinez in their outfield. Humberto Quintero is a young catcher as well. Then they have Jonathan Villar as a SS prospect and Delino DeShields, Jr. as a second base prospect.
Then they have Wandy Rodriguez, Bud Norris, Jarod Cosart, and J A Happ
Then they have Wandy Rodriguez, Bud Norris, Jarod Cosart, and J A Happ
Michael Bourn against lefties is hitting .284 with .341 OBP. Jordan Schafer against lefties is hitting .190 with .254 OBP.
This is delusional
Schafer has looked overwhelmed in both stints in the majors, not to mention he's prone to injuries. The player he had hoped to be isn't even as good as Bourn today.
Juan Abreu was picked up by the Braves two years ago as a FA from the ROYALS. The fact that he was even included is a joke.
Oberholtzer is the catch in this group but as far as the Braves were concerned - there are roughly 8-10 SP blocking his path.
Clemens is obviously overrated by Houston b/c of his name.
Read every unbiased MLB pundit and they will say the Braves made out like bandits, including Keith Law who never compliments anyone. I'm just happy to have a new Otis Nixon.
Schafer has looked overwhelmed in both stints in the majors, not to mention he's prone to injuries. The player he had hoped to be isn't even as good as Bourn today.
Juan Abreu was picked up by the Braves two years ago as a FA from the ROYALS. The fact that he was even included is a joke.
Oberholtzer is the catch in this group but as far as the Braves were concerned - there are roughly 8-10 SP blocking his path.
Clemens is obviously overrated by Houston b/c of his name.
Read every unbiased MLB pundit and they will say the Braves made out like bandits, including Keith Law who never compliments anyone. I'm just happy to have a new Otis Nixon.
if they were willing to give this much up, why not get Beltran?
Olberholtzer and Clemens are both all-stars in AA this season. They are both ranked as Braves top 10 prospects. they both project as mid-rotation starters in 2013-2014 (when the Braves will need a couple, when Lowe, JJ, and Hudson are gone).
Abreu is killing it in AAA. he has control issues, but killer stuff. he is a RH reliever that the Braves could use right now, let alone the next several years. why does it matter how they got him? btw, he's ranked a top 20 prospect. that's a joke? you don't have a clue.
AND this is all assuming Bourn won't forget how to hit once the Braves coaches get their hands on him, like most players do. Plus, the Braves will of course put one of the most impatient hitters in baseball, Martin Prado, hitting after Bourn, hurting his SB value.
Olberholtzer and Clemens are both all-stars in AA this season. They are both ranked as Braves top 10 prospects. they both project as mid-rotation starters in 2013-2014 (when the Braves will need a couple, when Lowe, JJ, and Hudson are gone).
Abreu is killing it in AAA. he has control issues, but killer stuff. he is a RH reliever that the Braves could use right now, let alone the next several years. why does it matter how they got him? btw, he's ranked a top 20 prospect. that's a joke? you don't have a clue.
AND this is all assuming Bourn won't forget how to hit once the Braves coaches get their hands on him, like most players do. Plus, the Braves will of course put one of the most impatient hitters in baseball, Martin Prado, hitting after Bourn, hurting his SB value.
Singleton is a long way away from major league ready. Also, Brett wallace couldnt play 3rd base in a slow pitch softball league. Ed Wade has proven himself to be a terrible evaluator of talent. They are cellar dwellars for a long long time.
Since you want to ignore this season's statistics. Schafer isn't the player most thought he would be. He's been very below average since being caught using PEDs.
that same lot for Beltran.
Second, the NYMets wanted a prized pitching prospect, something the Braves have been reluctant to give up.
Put on your GM cap and try again.
Second, the NYMets wanted a prized pitching prospect, something the Braves have been reluctant to give up.
Put on your GM cap and try again.
First off, he doesnt fill the void the Braves have in the leadoff spot.That is the most important factor in this regardless of what anyone else says.To me, getting a rental player like Beltran on the back end of his career, having had injury problems,andmost likely giving up2 of the big 4 pitchers isn't worth it.
The Braves haven't been a consistent playoff team since the days they had alegit leadoff guy in Furcal, and Bourn gives them a .50 jump in OBP over Schafer, a .63 jump in BA over Schafer, and almost as many steals as the entire Braves teamhas this year. Beltran no longer has top notch speed, and that's what the Braves need most right now. We have enough power with McCann, Freeman, and Uggla, we just don't have anyone getting on base consistently in front of them.
Also, the Braves will most likely get to keep Bourn beyond this year. There is no way Beltran would be more than a rental, and he still doesn't fix the problem the Braves have at the top of the lineup. And I don't understand how you can say Prado batting behind Bourn is a bad thing. Prado is a fantastic opposite field hitter, rarely hits into DP's, and rarely strikes out. What more do you want from a guy that will behitting in the 2 hole?
The Braves haven't been a consistent playoff team since the days they had alegit leadoff guy in Furcal, and Bourn gives them a .50 jump in OBP over Schafer, a .63 jump in BA over Schafer, and almost as many steals as the entire Braves teamhas this year. Beltran no longer has top notch speed, and that's what the Braves need most right now. We have enough power with McCann, Freeman, and Uggla, we just don't have anyone getting on base consistently in front of them.
Also, the Braves will most likely get to keep Bourn beyond this year. There is no way Beltran would be more than a rental, and he still doesn't fix the problem the Braves have at the top of the lineup. And I don't understand how you can say Prado batting behind Bourn is a bad thing. Prado is a fantastic opposite field hitter, rarely hits into DP's, and rarely strikes out. What more do you want from a guy that will behitting in the 2 hole?
SSS means Small Sample Size.
Schafer has been below average. But, like i said, Bourn is barely an upgrade against lefties. and they gave up a good bit to get him. Beltran would have been a HUGE upgrade, and wouldn't have cost as much.
it smells like they made this deal because the Giants and Phillies had made one, and Wren wanted to make one too. but sometimes the best deal is to do nothing.
Schafer has been below average. But, like i said, Bourn is barely an upgrade against lefties. and they gave up a good bit to get him. Beltran would have been a HUGE upgrade, and wouldn't have cost as much.
it smells like they made this deal because the Giants and Phillies had made one, and Wren wanted to make one too. but sometimes the best deal is to do nothing.
Bourn's career MLB stats are better than Schafer's career minor+major league stats. With Schafer's stats declining since the failed drug test. I don't see where the braves gave up way much. They got to keep all their top5 pitching prospects which they couldn't have done b/c Mets had to have at least Minor in return for Beltran. Beltran isn't a huge upgrade to me. He's older, slower, and probably doesn't have too many more full seasons left in him to play. And on top of that his salary is 18 million.
They held onto their top prospects and got an immediate impact player in the process. I think they did fine
the Mets would have taken the same deal for Beltran...it would have cost much more (think one of the "big 4").
They are the new Pirates. But once these players do develop, it will be interesting to look back and see what they got. The only reason I had Wallace as a possibility at third base was because they acquired Singeton and Wallace was a third baseman in college and in the minor leagues. As I said, more than likely he will be used as trade bait at some point in time for the 25th time in his career.
I also think it will be interesting to see if Shafer can turn it around now that he is with a new team. I have some doubts about it, but it is interesting nonetheless.
I also think it will be interesting to see if Shafer can turn it around now that he is with a new team. I have some doubts about it, but it is interesting nonetheless.
They have to hope Schafer turns his poor career path around. Completely unacceptable that none of the "fab 4" were acquired when the Braves have that many arms to spare. Bourn is a two time gold glover and one of the best hitting/fielding centerfielders in the game. He is just underrated because he doesnt have any pop and doesnt walk enough.
Sitting in front of me was a group of 4; a Georgia fan, Auburn fan, and 2 LSU fans. They start talking about football, and I hear "Mississippi State" and it peaks my interest as they're talking about us possibly winning the west. Georgia fan says loudly, "Who the hell picked Ole Miss to win the SEC this year?"(talking about the media members pick at media days) "They couldn't win their division, they couldn't even win the east as bad as it is."
Made me feel really good to know that the rest of the SEC feels the same way many people here feel.
Made me feel really good to know that the rest of the SEC feels the same way many people here feel.
well.... pretty much always retarded.
Braves acquired the best RH bat they could on 7/5 when Dan Uggla caught fire.. Bourn was the best player on the trade market for what the Braves needed and they got him by giving up practically nothing. I haven't been a Wren fan but this was one heck of a trade...
4th best record in the majors, adding Bourn will improve the Defense and run production because this guy tends to be on 2nd base a lot.
Braves acquired the best RH bat they could on 7/5 when Dan Uggla caught fire.. Bourn was the best player on the trade market for what the Braves needed and they got him by giving up practically nothing. I haven't been a Wren fan but this was one heck of a trade...
4th best record in the majors, adding Bourn will improve the Defense and run production because this guy tends to be on 2nd base a lot.
check Beltran's stats against LHP, and try again. and the Mets were willing to eat his salary. plus Bourn will make $8M+ next year.
definitely not as well as Bourn though.
giving up just Minor would be better than Schafer and 3 top 20 prospects, IMO. or at least equivalent.
look, Bourn WILL make them better. i'm not denying that. but they have looked completely pathetic against even the worst LH starters in the league, and Bourn will in no way help that. against righties, they really didn't need the help that badly. and for that, they gave up a lot. it's not the worst trade, it's WAY better than the Pence trade, but i think it's pretty clear they overpaid. they gave up all that, and they still didn't get a RH reliever to lessen the load on two of the best releivers in baseball, who they have under control for years. AND they gave one up to get Bourn.</p>
giving up just Minor would be better than Schafer and 3 top 20 prospects, IMO. or at least equivalent.
look, Bourn WILL make them better. i'm not denying that. but they have looked completely pathetic against even the worst LH starters in the league, and Bourn will in no way help that. against righties, they really didn't need the help that badly. and for that, they gave up a lot. it's not the worst trade, it's WAY better than the Pence trade, but i think it's pretty clear they overpaid. they gave up all that, and they still didn't get a RH reliever to lessen the load on two of the best releivers in baseball, who they have under control for years. AND they gave one up to get Bourn.</p>
How much you think he'll sign for? 15-18 million? And if the Braves didn't resign Beltran they would have lost an Elite prospect for borrowing Beltran for a couple months and gotten nothing in return if he bolted in the offseason.
Because you have already taken one on the chin.
But did you really just call Martin Prado, a guy who almost always takes the first strike, one of the most impatient hitters in baseball? Wow.</p>
But did you really just call Martin Prado, a guy who almost always takes the first strike, one of the most impatient hitters in baseball? Wow.</p>
Maybe then you'll finally have a clue what you're talking about.
One 'expert' said if the Astros get 800 MLB innings out of this deal, then they won. I agree completely. It seems most are writing off Olberholtzer and Clemens because they're not one of atlanta's top 4 prospects. Nor were they top 20 before this season. But they were top 10 on all the midseason lists, meaning they would be top 5 on most teams. That's a damn good haul. plus, you have big-market writers who couldn't care less about prospects that project as mid-rotation, because those are worth nothing to the Yanks or Phils, who can buy one of those whenever they want. But those are the type that win pennants for teams like Atlanta or Houston.
One 'expert' said if the Astros get 800 MLB innings out of this deal, then they won. I agree completely. It seems most are writing off Olberholtzer and Clemens because they're not one of atlanta's top 4 prospects. Nor were they top 20 before this season. But they were top 10 on all the midseason lists, meaning they would be top 5 on most teams. That's a damn good haul. plus, you have big-market writers who couldn't care less about prospects that project as mid-rotation, because those are worth nothing to the Yanks or Phils, who can buy one of those whenever they want. But those are the type that win pennants for teams like Atlanta or Houston.
As tenureplan pointed out he is one of the leastaggressive1st pitch hitters in the majors. Prado is a very patient hitter that doesn't draw alot of walks b/c he has good contact. He'll wait on a good pitch to hit and puts it into play. Their are tons of hitters that have higher walk ratio than prado. Doesn't mean they are more patient.
3 Top 20..that's Laughable....and embarrassing that you post when you don't have a clue.
Baseball HQ - Abreu HM none of the others in the top 15
Baseball America - Oberholtzer was 9th, none of the others mentioned.
Project Prospect (no individual team rankings) - none of them top 200
Minor League Ball - Oberholtzer 21st none of the others.
Capitol Avenue Club - Oberholtzer 18th, Abreu 25th none of the others.
Baseball Prospectus - Oberholtzer 12th none of the others.
Baseball HQ - Abreu HM none of the others in the top 15
Baseball America - Oberholtzer was 9th, none of the others mentioned.
Project Prospect (no individual team rankings) - none of them top 200
Minor League Ball - Oberholtzer 21st none of the others.
Capitol Avenue Club - Oberholtzer 18th, Abreu 25th none of the others.
Baseball Prospectus - Oberholtzer 12th none of the others.
Olberholtzer 7th, Clemens 10th, Abreu 23rd.
Capitol avenue club's MIDSEASON list has Olberholtzer 9th and Clemens 10th.
Like I said, Olberholtzer and Clemens have both had outstanding seasons so far (AA all-stars) that have moved them way up the prospect lists.
Your preseason lists are out of date. Maybe next time you should ask where I'm getting my info, before making a fool of yourself.
Capitol avenue club's MIDSEASON list has Olberholtzer 9th and Clemens 10th.
Like I said, Olberholtzer and Clemens have both had outstanding seasons so far (AA all-stars) that have moved them way up the prospect lists.
Your preseason lists are out of date. Maybe next time you should ask where I'm getting my info, before making a fool of yourself.
Wasn't your argument against Bourn's .300 average and his success against LHP that it was too small of a sample size? Then you turn around and argue midseason prospect rankings versus preseason...
Every MLB baseball person, Braves writer/blogger, Astros fans and my own opinion ORboomboommsu.
who should I listen to concerning if this was a good trade or not? This is difficult.
who should I listen to concerning if this was a good trade or not? This is difficult.
...to someone who doesnt know what they're talking about.
First, we're talking about a smaller sample size for Bourn, because only a fraction of his ABs are left-handed, while we're talking about every pitch for the pitchers in question. we're talking about half a season for the pitchers, and maybe 1/6 a season for Bourn.
On top of that, 21 yo prospects develop much faster than 28 yo veterans. It's a lot easier to believe a prospect raised his game from a top 20 prospect to top 10, than that a hitter who's NEVER hit lefties all of a sudden figured it out at 28.
besides, the midseason rankings aren't based on JUST this season. it's based on everything to date.
Jeez, when did all the Gene's pagers come out of the wordwork?</p>
First, we're talking about a smaller sample size for Bourn, because only a fraction of his ABs are left-handed, while we're talking about every pitch for the pitchers in question. we're talking about half a season for the pitchers, and maybe 1/6 a season for Bourn.
On top of that, 21 yo prospects develop much faster than 28 yo veterans. It's a lot easier to believe a prospect raised his game from a top 20 prospect to top 10, than that a hitter who's NEVER hit lefties all of a sudden figured it out at 28.
besides, the midseason rankings aren't based on JUST this season. it's based on everything to date.
Jeez, when did all the Gene's pagers come out of the wordwork?</p>
Major Leaguers make adjustments all the time. And you're forgetting that it's August. That .284 vs. lefties this year is over the course of 116 ABs, not just a month or two. If Bourn is only on a temporary high when it comes to hitting lefties, the temporary part hasn't shown signs of waning all 4 months of the season. That's not the best sample size, but it's not that small, either. It's big enough to at least entertain the idea of a professional making an adjustment, too.
A right-handed bat wasn't the only need the Braves had. Also, when Dan Uggla finally woke up, the need for that bat diminished, and the obvious holes in the OF and leadoff didn't. Of course the Braves wanted the prized bat in Beltran, but they didn't want to give up as much as the Phillies were willing to give up for TWO MONTHS of Beltran. It's not that complicated.
The only thing I don't like about this deal, obviously, was losing JS. He has all kinds of potential, but he's also been given all kinds of chances. I started to worry about him when he couldn't lock down a roster spot in Spring Training, and his health was continuing to be a problem. Bourn is a proven guy under team control another year, he'll play 140+ games/year, he's got the defense for the OF, and he secures the leadoff spot every day. That's an immediate upgrade on a team that's making a playoff push, and it did hardly anything to the farm system. I'll take it.
A right-handed bat wasn't the only need the Braves had. Also, when Dan Uggla finally woke up, the need for that bat diminished, and the obvious holes in the OF and leadoff didn't. Of course the Braves wanted the prized bat in Beltran, but they didn't want to give up as much as the Phillies were willing to give up for TWO MONTHS of Beltran. It's not that complicated.
The only thing I don't like about this deal, obviously, was losing JS. He has all kinds of potential, but he's also been given all kinds of chances. I started to worry about him when he couldn't lock down a roster spot in Spring Training, and his health was continuing to be a problem. Bourn is a proven guy under team control another year, he'll play 140+ games/year, he's got the defense for the OF, and he secures the leadoff spot every day. That's an immediate upgrade on a team that's making a playoff push, and it did hardly anything to the farm system. I'll take it.
And with the few at bats that lefties see against lefties, do you realize the difference between a good average and a bad average could be as little as 5 or 10 hits throughout the entire season?boomboommsu said:
"And with the few at bats that lefties see against lefties, do you realize the difference between a good average and a bad average could be as little as 5 or 10 hits throughout the entire season?
"
That's why his 116 ABs against lefties this year pales in comparison to his 4 years prior.
"
That's why his 116 ABs against lefties this year pales in comparison to his 4 years prior.
say we had traded Brandon Beachy 2 or 3 years ago for 1 year and 2 months of Bourn now, how would you rate that trade? (and yes, let's ignore that Beachy was an unknown 2 years ago, so he doesn't really relate well to Olberholtzer or Clemens).
also, i don't get the '2 months' argument. i'd get it if Bourn would be cheap next year, but he won't. we can always get a FA for next year, or have Schafer making the minimum. Bourn will be worth more than he'll make, but not by much, and that's money that can't be spent elsewhere (SS).
also, i don't get the '2 months' argument. i'd get it if Bourn would be cheap next year, but he won't. we can always get a FA for next year, or have Schafer making the minimum. Bourn will be worth more than he'll make, but not by much, and that's money that can't be spent elsewhere (SS).
literally the ONLY person, including among many talking heads in MLB, that thinks this trade isn't good...for what it's worth. Good luck on your career as a GM.