Monday question- who is your MLB starting 9 since 1970?
- Thread starter Coach34
- Start date
there's actually a pretty big difference. Andruw lost a step or two after he fattened up, and his arm wasn't quite as good. I also think Edmonds peaked during this period, at least in highlight catches, which is why some think they are comparable.
Other than that, i really cannot believe people would compare them. Their range deep was roughly comparable, butthat was only because Andruw plays much shallower,taking away shallow hits that Edmonds didn't have a prayer on. And Andruw unarguably had the far better arm, even after it degraded a bit. Looking at stats now, Andruw never played less than 154 games, and Edmonds never once played that many. Andruw had fewer errors and more assists and a higher fielding percentage.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/players/playerpage/7578/jim-edmonds
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/players/playerpage/7764/andruw-jones
From '97 to '01, Andruw was clearly better defensively. From '02 onward they're roughly equal, as the drop in Andruw's range down to Edmonds' level is clear.
Or ya'll just Cards homers or something?
Other than that, i really cannot believe people would compare them. Their range deep was roughly comparable, butthat was only because Andruw plays much shallower,taking away shallow hits that Edmonds didn't have a prayer on. And Andruw unarguably had the far better arm, even after it degraded a bit. Looking at stats now, Andruw never played less than 154 games, and Edmonds never once played that many. Andruw had fewer errors and more assists and a higher fielding percentage.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/players/playerpage/7578/jim-edmonds
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/players/playerpage/7764/andruw-jones
From '97 to '01, Andruw was clearly better defensively. From '02 onward they're roughly equal, as the drop in Andruw's range down to Edmonds' level is clear.
Or ya'll just Cards homers or something?
But if there was a centerfielder who was better defensively than Edmonds, then all of the talking heads across the USofA would've continually praised this person for being the best defensive centerfielder to have ever lived. And none of those guys were doing that.<div>
</div><div>I've watched Edmonds with my own two eyes for about 7 years straight. I personally don't think there's a level that's "better than Edmonds". There's a few guys who are up there with him, including Andruw Jones... but no one is DEFINITIVELY better than him. We could argue about it all day... I'd take Edmonds on Jones for more than just on-the-field catches, etc.... Jones was a lazy bastard too, which doesn't help his cause.</div>
</div><div>I've watched Edmonds with my own two eyes for about 7 years straight. I personally don't think there's a level that's "better than Edmonds". There's a few guys who are up there with him, including Andruw Jones... but no one is DEFINITIVELY better than him. We could argue about it all day... I'd take Edmonds on Jones for more than just on-the-field catches, etc.... Jones was a lazy bastard too, which doesn't help his cause.</div>
Actually, I'm a Braves homer. I'd probably give the nod overall to Andrew in his prime vs. Edmonds in his prime. However, that's not discounting Edmonds. They're both at the very top of the list defensively.
Sandberg is probably the most overrated player on anyone's list in this thread. He hit 282 homers, but the phrase "warning track power" might as well have been created for him. Morgan had a lower batting average, but was a better power hitter, ran better, and was better defensively. Alomar was also better than Sandberg.
P Roger Clemens
c Johnny Bench
1st Keith Hernandez -and his magic lugy
2nd Joe Morgan -
SS Mark "The Blade" Belanger - best fielding shortstop ever
3rdMike Schmidt - think how good he would have been if he hadnt been doing his Wilt impersonation
LF Ricky Henderson - But I may have to shoot him after the game because I hate that **********
CF Tori Hunter
RF Tony Gwynn
c Johnny Bench
1st Keith Hernandez -and his magic lugy
2nd Joe Morgan -
SS Mark "The Blade" Belanger - best fielding shortstop ever
3rdMike Schmidt - think how good he would have been if he hadnt been doing his Wilt impersonation
LF Ricky Henderson - But I may have to shoot him after the game because I hate that **********
CF Tori Hunter
RF Tony Gwynn
He obviously had more than his share clear the warning track. I believe he's among the leaders of most home runs by a second baseman- I think Jeff Kent holds that record now. And Sandberg had a almost twice as many gold gloves as Morgan, and not to mention a better batting average, so I don't see how Morgan is a better hitter. Morgan also played on some really good teams throughout his career, and Sandberg played for the Cubs- some of those teams were very average at best, although there were a couple of good ones in there as well. Morgan was definately a better baserunner, though. Not to mention I think Morgan played a good bit longer and had more time to amass his stats than Sandberg and Ryne took a couple of years off in there as well.
too bad you weren't watching andruw back in the late 90s. cause back then the talking heads WERE calling him the best defensive outfielder ever. it just hasn't been said in a long while, cause he got fat.
look at the stats. Edmonds most putouts ever was 392. Andruw topped at 492, and topped 392 6 times! better. range. but note, he only did it once after 2002. if you're talking about the last 7 years, then i'd agree Edmonds has been better over that period.
he had better range, and he had the better arm. yes, Edmonds was great, probably #2 in my lifetime, but Andruwwas demonstrably better in his prime.
put it this way: take Edmonds, add5 mph to his fastball, and add50 feet to his range on balls in front of him, and you have Andruw Jones. i don't think you get than Andruw played 30 feet or so shallower than any other CFer, and still had the same range on deep balls that Edmonds had. they were comparable in every other way, but that one thing puts Andruw clearly ahead. Edmonds was at least as good an overall player, better in my opinion. Andruw feasted on weak pitching, and was usually useless against aces. don't know how that applies to Edmonds, but my impression is he was a better hitter than that. but we were talking about defense.
yeah, we could argue all day whether 5 is > 4, but only one of us is right.
look at the stats. Edmonds most putouts ever was 392. Andruw topped at 492, and topped 392 6 times! better. range. but note, he only did it once after 2002. if you're talking about the last 7 years, then i'd agree Edmonds has been better over that period.
he had better range, and he had the better arm. yes, Edmonds was great, probably #2 in my lifetime, but Andruwwas demonstrably better in his prime.
put it this way: take Edmonds, add5 mph to his fastball, and add50 feet to his range on balls in front of him, and you have Andruw Jones. i don't think you get than Andruw played 30 feet or so shallower than any other CFer, and still had the same range on deep balls that Edmonds had. they were comparable in every other way, but that one thing puts Andruw clearly ahead. Edmonds was at least as good an overall player, better in my opinion. Andruw feasted on weak pitching, and was usually useless against aces. don't know how that applies to Edmonds, but my impression is he was a better hitter than that. but we were talking about defense.
yeah, we could argue all day whether 5 is > 4, but only one of us is right.
just committed to LSU. Just to give you another reason to hate him, as if anyone needed one.
Definately one of my least favorite players of all time. He struck out too much, and couldn't field. And I didn't like him before he came to the Cardinals.
Definately one of my least favorite players of all time. He struck out too much, and couldn't field. And I didn't like him before he came to the Cardinals.
just saw this. sorry, can't see the clip from work. ok, i'll agree he's in the conversation. but the stats say Andruw in his prime took away nearly a hit a game more than Edmonds. so i just don't see how they compare.
diving catches are great, but it's still just an out. it's like saying the guy who hits 30 500' homers is better than the guy who hits 40 425' homers.
diving catches are great, but it's still just an out. it's like saying the guy who hits 30 500' homers is better than the guy who hits 40 425' homers.
of all-time per MLB Network. It's off of a show called Prime 9. I think sportswriters pick it, I'm not 100% on that.
9) Kirby Puckett
8) Jim Edmonds
7) Duke Snider
6) Ken Griffey Jr.
5) Joe DiMaggio
4) Tris Speaker
3) Mickey Mantle
2) Ty Cobb
1) Willie Mays
Edmonds is on the list. Jones is not. For whatever that's worth. This show aired about a year ago for reference.
9) Kirby Puckett
8) Jim Edmonds
7) Duke Snider
6) Ken Griffey Jr.
5) Joe DiMaggio
4) Tris Speaker
3) Mickey Mantle
2) Ty Cobb
1) Willie Mays
Edmonds is on the list. Jones is not. For whatever that's worth. This show aired about a year ago for reference.
I feel like if you put Alomar on the list then you have to put Omar Vizquel as your shortstop. Thats the best middle infied ever. And I would say Freddie Sanchez and Jack Wilson could be next in line (probly not but I loved the way they played together).
C- Pudge (will be Mauer)
1B-Pujols (Buckner close 2nd)
2B- Biggio (reason I'm a 'stros fan along with Bagwell)
3B- Ripken
SS- the Wizard
LF- Bonds
CF- Henderson
RF- Ichiro
DH- Rose
C- Pudge (will be Mauer)
1B-Pujols (Buckner close 2nd)
2B- Biggio (reason I'm a 'stros fan along with Bagwell)
3B- Ripken
SS- the Wizard
LF- Bonds
CF- Henderson
RF- Ichiro
DH- Rose
and most any Cardinals fan can probably back this up. Edmonds played on top of 2B nearly...<div>
</div><div>And another thing.. Edmonds was never pulled from the lineup in the middle of an inning for being lazy. I'd take Edmonds just slightly over Jones. Jones was great, but I still think I'd rather have Edmonds.</div>
</div><div>And another thing.. Edmonds was never pulled from the lineup in the middle of an inning for being lazy. I'd take Edmonds just slightly over Jones. Jones was great, but I still think I'd rather have Edmonds.</div>
Before this turns into another version of Jones vs. Edmonds, I never said Sandberg wasn't a great 2B. My point was that, while he's definitely one of the best at his position over the last 30 years, there are a few who put up better numbers. I can think of 3 (Morgan, Alomar, and Biggio) who were better. However, almost everyone has him as their best 2B. Thus, he's overrated.
I agree with everything you said about Jones. But I think the same thing can be said about Edmonds. On getting jumps and tracking balls, they're #1 and #2 of all the outfielders I've ever seen.
1B - Will Clark
2B - Ryne Sandburg
SS - The Wizard
3B - Schmidt
C - Johnny Bench
P- Nolan Ryan
LF - Barry Bonds
CF - Lenny Dykstra
RF - Pete Rose
2B - Ryne Sandburg
SS - The Wizard
3B - Schmidt
C - Johnny Bench
P- Nolan Ryan
LF - Barry Bonds
CF - Lenny Dykstra
RF - Pete Rose
I was very surprised to not see Nails listed by anyone else already. He was one of the best defensive outfielders I can remember and after looking it up, his batting average was a gnat's *** better than both Edmonds and Griffey Jr.
C - Joe Mauer
1B - Mark McGwire
2B - Joe Morgan
3B - Albert Pujols (spent most time here in rookie season)
SS - Alex Rodriguez (spent pre-Yankee career at this position)
LF - Rickey Henderson
CF - pre-roid Barry Bonds (young Barry could play CF)
RF - Ken Griffey, Jr. (he's played some RF before)
DH - Frank Thomas
1B - Mark McGwire
2B - Joe Morgan
3B - Albert Pujols (spent most time here in rookie season)
SS - Alex Rodriguez (spent pre-Yankee career at this position)
LF - Rickey Henderson
CF - pre-roid Barry Bonds (young Barry could play CF)
RF - Ken Griffey, Jr. (he's played some RF before)
DH - Frank Thomas
SanfordRJones said:
He's overrated because you don't think he's as good as those other players, and yet most everyone else has them as their second baseman? It couldn't possibly be that maybe everyone else sees that he's better?
I'm saying he's overrated per the SPS consensus. You busted out the list of greatest center fielders of all time, so here's a few for 2B:
http://www.baseball-statistics.com/Greats/secondbasemen.htm
http://www.thebaseballpage.com/positions/rankings/2B.php
And then there's Rob Neyer's list (it's in an ESPN Insider article):
1. Joe Morgan
2. Eddie Collins
3. Rogers Hornsby
4. Craig
Biggio
5. Jackie Robinson
6. Nap Lajoie
7. Roberto Alomar
8.
Ryne Sandberg
9. Charlie Gehringer
10. Frankie Frisch
All of these have Sandberg in the conversation, yet all of them have Morgan as #1 or #2 all time. 2 of the 3 have Biggio and Alomar ahead of Sandberg (the other lists Sandberg and Alomar as honorable mentions with no rankings past #5). This is compared to Sandberg's getting the vast marjority of votes in this thread. Hence, Sandberg is overrated in SPS-land. He should have gotten some votes, but not almost all of them.
This topic isn't worth carrying any further, so this is my last post on the subject.
http://www.baseball-statistics.com/Greats/secondbasemen.htm
http://www.thebaseballpage.com/positions/rankings/2B.php
And then there's Rob Neyer's list (it's in an ESPN Insider article):
1. Joe Morgan
2. Eddie Collins
3. Rogers Hornsby
4. Craig
Biggio
5. Jackie Robinson
6. Nap Lajoie
7. Roberto Alomar
8.
Ryne Sandberg
9. Charlie Gehringer
10. Frankie Frisch
All of these have Sandberg in the conversation, yet all of them have Morgan as #1 or #2 all time. 2 of the 3 have Biggio and Alomar ahead of Sandberg (the other lists Sandberg and Alomar as honorable mentions with no rankings past #5). This is compared to Sandberg's getting the vast marjority of votes in this thread. Hence, Sandberg is overrated in SPS-land. He should have gotten some votes, but not almost all of them.
This topic isn't worth carrying any further, so this is my last post on the subject.
First Base - Albert
Second Base -Biggio
Short - The Wizard
Third - Chipper
Right - Bonds
Center - Griffey
Left - Sammy Sosa
Catcher - Joe Mauer
DH - Klesko
SP - Nolan Ryan
CP - Hoffman ( excluding this year)</p>
Second Base -Biggio
Short - The Wizard
Third - Chipper
Right - Bonds
Center - Griffey
Left - Sammy Sosa
Catcher - Joe Mauer
DH - Klesko
SP - Nolan Ryan
CP - Hoffman ( excluding this year)</p>
I'd actually say that Sandberg is the one being underrated here- based on the stats at hand. I could see an arguement for Alomar being better- he has more Gold Gloves and very similar stats, and a better batting average and played basically the same amount of time. Biggio- he also played catcher and center field, to, so it's kind of hard to define him as an exclusive second baseman.
And I'll be the first to say that I was a little surprised that Edmonds was on the list that I provided. I think the difference was the fact that he has made a couple of very defining defensive plays that standout- the one with the Angels in Kansas City where he caught a ball running to the wall that was on ESPN all the time, and one against the Astros in the 04 NLCS which was very key to the Cardinals winning that series where he tracked a ball down in the gap and made a diving catch to rob someone of an extra base hit.
And I'll be the first to say that I was a little surprised that Edmonds was on the list that I provided. I think the difference was the fact that he has made a couple of very defining defensive plays that standout- the one with the Angels in Kansas City where he caught a ball running to the wall that was on ESPN all the time, and one against the Astros in the 04 NLCS which was very key to the Cardinals winning that series where he tracked a ball down in the gap and made a diving catch to rob someone of an extra base hit.
C Gary Carter
1B Will Clark
2B Glenn Hubbard
3B Chipper Jones
SS Cal Ripken JR
RF Tony Gwynn
CF Ichiro
LF Dale Murphy
DH Reggie Jackson
1B Will Clark
2B Glenn Hubbard
3B Chipper Jones
SS Cal Ripken JR
RF Tony Gwynn
CF Ichiro
LF Dale Murphy
DH Reggie Jackson
is Ozzie Smith. Anybody with a career line of 262/337/328, doesn't belong in this thread. I don't care how good he was defensively. He was too one dimensional for a list like this. If Smith was in the league these days, he would never get anywhere near the HOF or even an all-star game.
Yes, Ozzie Smith is the most overrated player on these lists. He was a phenomenal defensive shortstop and a decent leadoff man, at times... but he wouldn't be a top 3 shortstop sinc 1970. I'm an Ozzie Smith and Cardinals homer too... so it kind of hurts to say these things.
No, he would still be in the Hall of Fame. He was probably the best defensive SS of all-time. He made a zillion all-star games and won a zillion gold gloves and was pretty clutch in the playoffs. With that being said... it'll be interesting to see how Omar Vizquel is handled in future HOF voting.</p>
No, he would still be in the Hall of Fame. He was probably the best defensive SS of all-time. He made a zillion all-star games and won a zillion gold gloves and was pretty clutch in the playoffs. With that being said... it'll be interesting to see how Omar Vizquel is handled in future HOF voting.</p>
None of you "experts" have mentioned the greatest 3rd baseman in the history of the game.
More All Star games
More Golden Gloves
Hall of Famer with higher % than Boggs
<span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Brooks Robinson</span>
Since 1970, you can argue Schmidt, but absolutely no one else.
More All Star games
More Golden Gloves
Hall of Famer with higher % than Boggs
<span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Brooks Robinson</span>
Since 1970, you can argue Schmidt, but absolutely no one else.