More dead horse beating. Pitching elbow injuries

[jethreauxdawg]

Elbow injuries are at an all time high, pitchers throw harder than ever before, at all levels. The top high school showcase had 35 pitchers who could throw 95mph last year. In 2015, there were 5 kids who could do that. MLB batting averages are lower against faster pitching, so pitchers keep trying to throw harder. Can anything be done to change the trend? Does the trend need changing? Will there reach a tipping point where it becomes more advantageous to throw in the low 90’s but be able to pitch 7 innings a game?

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Nope. TJ surgery is seen as a necessary risk. Velo wins. They can throw one guy for 7 innings then bring out another guy who throws the same gas.

 

[ll Martain ll]

It likely won't change, there's too much money to be made it you can get there. If you're a fringe AAA / MLB guy, there is a sizeable pay difference between league minimum (750k) vs. AAA (35k), so guys who didn't get big signing bonuses are going to do everything in their power to make it to the top.

Looking back on my teens and 20s, I probably would have thrown my arm off to have a chance at playing baseball at higher levels than high school. I wasn't thinking at all about long term ramifications or possible surgeries.

 

[dorndawg]

This reminded me of an article in SI by the great Tom Verducci about Tim Lincecum in 2008. He won the Cy Young that season and in 2009; by 2012 his career was effectively over.

Throwing a baseball is an act of violence that has been graphically defined by Dr. James Andrews, Dr. Glenn Fleisig and the other doctors and clinicians at the American Sports Medicine Institute (ASMI) in Birmingham. From the loaded position, the shoulder, at its peak speed, rotates forward at 7,000 degrees per second. "That," Fleisig says, "is the fastest measured human motion of any human activity."

While in the loaded position, the shoulder and elbow bear the equivalent of about 40 pounds of force pushing down. When the ASMI biomechanists wanted to know how much more force an arm could take, they brought cadavers into the lab and pulled and pushed upon the elbow joint to find the breaking point. The cadavers's ligaments blew apart just after 40 pounds of force. "So a pitcher is just about at the maximum," Fleisig says.

How Tiny Tim Became a Pitching Giant

As if peering around a corner, the Freak tilts his head slightly to the left as he begins his explosive, homemade pitching delivery. What lurks around that

vault.si.com

 

[OG Goat Holder]

This reminded me of an article in SI by the great Tom Verducci about Tim Lincecum in 2008. He won the Cy Young that season and in 2009; by 2012 his career was effectively over.

Throwing a baseball is an act of violence that has been graphically defined by Dr. James Andrews, Dr. Glenn Fleisig and the other doctors and clinicians at the American Sports Medicine Institute (ASMI) in Birmingham. From the loaded position, the shoulder, at its peak speed, rotates forward at 7,000 degrees per second. "That," Fleisig says, "is the fastest measured human motion of any human activity."

While in the loaded position, the shoulder and elbow bear the equivalent of about 40 pounds of force pushing down. When the ASMI biomechanists wanted to know how much more force an arm could take, they brought cadavers into the lab and pulled and pushed upon the elbow joint to find the breaking point. The cadavers's ligaments blew apart just after 40 pounds of force. "So a pitcher is just about at the maximum," Fleisig says.

How Tiny Tim Became a Pitching Giant

As if peering around a corner, the Freak tilts his head slightly to the left as he begins his explosive, homemade pitching delivery. What lurks around that

vault.si.com

He was one of the first to truly train for velo. I think he was involved with those guys who ultimately became Driveline.

Funny thing is now, they are trying to find some type of training method to mitigate the TJ risks. They are really big into weightlifting and strength and such. Who knows if they'll be able to do it, because like you said, that joint just isn't made for throwing 95-100 unless you're one of the true freaks like Nolan or Pedro.

Many people still blame high pitch counts and while that is bad, it's bad for the elbow AND shoulder, and just overall liveliness. Velo, and velo when fatigued, in normal pitchers, is what's killing the UCL. To me it's akin to Ronnie Coleman pushing all that weight on squats on those years....high quads could handle it but his spine could not. That's why I don't advocate for wraps or belts when lifting weights. If your weakest point can't handle the lift/stress, you ought not be doing it.

 

[dorndawg]

He was one of the first to truly train for velo. I think he was involved with those guys who ultimately became Driveline.

Funny thing is now, they are trying to find some type of training method to mitigate the TJ risks. They are really big into weightlifting and strength and such. Who knows if they'll be able to do it, because like you said, that joint just isn't made for throwing 95-100.

Right - my understanding is we are at (and routinely exceeding) what a human elbow can take. No amount of training can change that; I guess the new frontier might be some kind of supplemental brace or whatever that could be surgically implanted?

That does not sound fun or cool to me.

 

[GloryDawg]

I think kids are yanking it more causing all the problems today.***

 

[jethreauxdawg]

I think kids are yanking it more causing all the problems today.***

 

[She Mate Me]

I have no idea how to fix it, but it does seem obvious we are pushing the absolute limits of what various joints in the body can withstand in a number of different sports.

 

[CochiseCowbell]

I guess the new frontier might be

 

[msudawg1200]

This reminded me of an article in SI by the great Tom Verducci about Tim Lincecum in 2008. He won the Cy Young that season and in 2009; by 2012 his career was effectively over.

Throwing a baseball is an act of violence that has been graphically defined by Dr. James Andrews, Dr. Glenn Fleisig and the other doctors and clinicians at the American Sports Medicine Institute (ASMI) in Birmingham. From the loaded position, the shoulder, at its peak speed, rotates forward at 7,000 degrees per second. "That," Fleisig says, "is the fastest measured human motion of any human activity."

While in the loaded position, the shoulder and elbow bear the equivalent of about 40 pounds of force pushing down. When the ASMI biomechanists wanted to know how much more force an arm could take, they brought cadavers into the lab and pulled and pushed upon the elbow joint to find the breaking point. The cadavers's ligaments blew apart just after 40 pounds of force. "So a pitcher is just about at the maximum," Fleisig says.

How Tiny Tim Became a Pitching Giant

As if peering around a corner, the Freak tilts his head slightly to the left as he begins his explosive, homemade pitching delivery. What lurks around that

vault.si.com

I think MPH may have increased some, but I believe that radar guns measure faster now. The problem is that pitchers aren't taught to actually "pitch" anymore. Instead it's about trying to throw every pitch through a brick wall. Any halfway decent hitter can get set on a fast pitch and hit it. It's all the changing of speeds that make it difficult. I think training to throw harder has hurt the development of other pitches.

 

[MagnoliaHunter]

Go back to the larger strike zone, and to pre-2017 baseballs with larger seams, so that pitchers don't have to try to sling their arms off to get a few more mph on their fastballs.

 

[o_dawgflo]

The only thing that'll change the way pitchers pitch is how hitters hit. Once hitting changes/adjusts to consistently knock a guy out who throws in the mid-90 range, we will start to see the pendulum swing closer to a Glavine/Maddux type pitcher. Not sure we go all the way back to high 80s with good off-speed and impeccable pitching knowledge, but I think it'll move back in my lifetime.

 

[MagnoliaHunter]

I think MPH may have increased some, but I believe that radar guns measure faster now. The problem is that pitchers aren't taught to actually "pitch" anymore. Instead it's about trying to throw every pitch through a brick wall. Any halfway decent hitter can get set on a fast pitch and hit it. It's all the changing of speeds that make it difficult. I think training to throw harder has hurt the development of other pitches.

Also they changed where they measure the velocity. Now it is at the hand, it used to be closer to the plate.

 

[CochiseCowbell]

I think PRIORITIZING training to throw harder has hurt the development of other pitches PITCHERS.

Tweaked a few things for you. The sport is inundated with throwers. Pitchers are rare.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I think MPH may have increased some, but I believe that radar guns measure faster now. The problem is that pitchers aren't taught to actually "pitch" anymore. Instead it's about trying to throw every pitch through a brick wall. Any halfway decent hitter can get set on a fast pitch and hit it. It's all the changing of speeds that make it difficult. I think training to throw harder has hurt the development of other pitches.

You’re nuts if you don’t think they are throwing a solid notch harder than ever before. And there’s a reason. Velo gets hitters out.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Also they changed where they measure the velocity. Now it is at the hand, it used to be closer to the plate.

Well, that’s a massive 17ing difference.

The ball is going to be decelerating the entire time that it is traveling to the plate. Measuring exit velocity at the hand is about the worst possible way to do it. Everyone gets a bump that way.

MPH at one specific point in time in the travel path doesn’t make much sense, anyway, as far as effectiveness. Makes more sense to just measure the time from release until it is caught in the catcher’s mitt. That’s a much better assessment of the hitter’s reaction time.

 

[Wesson Bulldog]

I still like the ol' John Harden and Charlie Leibrandt rubber arm deliveries. They were more entertaining.

 

[HRMSU]

Well, that’s a massive 17ing difference.

The ball is going to be decelerating the entire time that it is traveling to the plate. Measuring exit velocity at the hand is about the worst possible way to do it. Everyone gets a bump that way.

MPH at one specific point in time in the travel path doesn’t make much sense, anyway, as far as effectiveness. Makes more sense to just measure the time from release until it is caught in the catcher’s mitt. That’s a much better assessment of the hitter’s reaction time.

If you are measuring hitters reaction time not just velo then you'd need to incorporate the pitcher's extension as well. There are guys with + extension that make 92 seem like 94-95 and then there is the freak Randy Johnson.

 

[Perd Hapley]

If you are measuring hitters reaction time not just velo then you'd need to incorporate the pitcher's extension as well. There are guys with + extension that make 92 seem like 94-95 and then there is the freak Randy Johnson.

Agreed. And not just extension, but also their turn and the time between the ball becoming visible to the hitter and it crossing the plate. I think something like a “hitters cam” where it starts a clock when the ball appears, and stops it as it crosses the plate. All this stuff can be measured.

Landon Sims was great at that, delaying his turn and hiding the ball with his body to keep hitters from picking it up until the last moment.