Based on the attached story is sounds like Justice has pulled Jack, Arnie, Gary and Lee into a group to build a course to hopefully get the US Open.https://globalone.kdc.capitalone.co...EOPP.SCLabel=eProcurement Home&EOPP.SCPTcname
Mountain Top Course at the Greenbrier?
- Thread starter JLW71073
- Start date
Your link sucks. Here's MetroNews:
WHITE SULPHUR SPRINGS, W.Va. — Golf legends Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, Gary Player and Lee Trevino will collaborate to design a mountaintop golf course at The Greenbrier Resort, an effort being engineered to bring the U.S. Open to the Mountain State.
It’s an idea from Jim Justice, owner of The Greenbrier, that he’s pushing to make a reality by the end of summer 2016. A groundbreaking for the new course, which would overlook the historic Oakhurst Links, could happen within the next month, according to Justice.
“A lot of people say, ‘Oh, Justice, there’s no way,’ but I say to them, ‘For gosh sakes a livin’, you know, did you think we’d have The Greenbrier Classic there? Did you think we’ve had the New Orleans Saints or the New England Patriots and on and on and on?” Justice asked.
“I mean, jiminy Christmas, we can do this stuff. We can do this stuff in our state.”
On Monday’s MetroNews “Talkline,” Justice admitted he worked hard to sell Nicklaus, Palmer, Player and Trevino on the project. Originally, Nicklaus had declined any involvement. In the end, Justice said his arguments won over the kind of golf greats he believes the U.S. Golf Association cannot ignore.
“We’re getting history made in West Virginia with these four doing something that they’ve never done before,” Justice said.
“Jack is going to take, kind of, the lead and then they’re all going to collaborate on every hole. This is going to be a total collaboration of the four of them and, believe me be, it’s been difficult to get them to all play in the sandbox.”
Justice, a Democratic gubernatorial candidate, sees the project as economic development for West Virginia as a whole.
“If we can get those people here, they have businesses out the ying-yang and everything, and they take up residence here, they fall in love with West Virginia, it just gives us lots and lots of opportunities,” he said.
The project will also include a private ski facility, according to information released Monday.
The Greenbrier Classic, the PGA Tour event, is scheduled for next week on the Old White TPC Course at The Greenbrier.
Last Saturday, tennis stars Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi opened the new Center Court at Creekside tennis facility.
I admire the man's spunk but even for him, attracting a US Open or even a PGA Championship would be a longshot at best. Just not enough infrastructure...hotels, restaurants, and transportation-especially the airport. The US Open ain't the Greenbrier Classic. And as much as I love Nicklaus and Palmer as players, Justice could do better in the architect department. Among golf course architecture snobs such as myself, Palmer, Trevino and Player are pedestrian. Nicklaus is much more respected than the others as an architect but he is no where in the same league as a Tom Fazio, a Tom Doak or the Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw firm. If any of those 3 designed a mountain course for Justice, it would immediately be given legitimacy in the architecture world. Nicklaus has sort of jumped the shark in his design business and has sort of sold himself out for work.
Nicklaus doesn't do much design anymore. He has a team of architects in the company and Jackie is overseeing most of it and is very involved. Jack may make a visit and tour the facility and may make a suggestion or two but his excellent work in designing a world class course is behind him. His company still does good work for resort courses but you are dead on correct as it pertains to a championship course.
Palmer has never designed a Championship course and the closest he has done is his work at Bay Hill. But for the daily hack like me, Palmer has designed many fun courses to play. Player's courses are strange. I don't know of any courses Trevino has done.
I played my first Tom Watson course last year. His only course in metro Atlanta. I was highly disappointed I the design.
Palmer has never designed a Championship course and the closest he has done is his work at Bay Hill. But for the daily hack like me, Palmer has designed many fun courses to play. Player's courses are strange. I don't know of any courses Trevino has done.
I played my first Tom Watson course last year. His only course in metro Atlanta. I was highly disappointed I the design.
What's looked for in a design? Distances? Use of the Terrain?
I've always wondered what it would be like to try and "design" one, because I could imagine some mean and hard holes, and I'm not talking about Coop's taste in women.
I've played two Watson designs-Hilton Island Club Cassique Course and Links at Spanish Bay at Pebble Beach. Cassique was awesome and I rated it highly. Spanish Bay is over-designed imo. Watson co-designed it with Sandy Tatum. Spanish Bay is ranked 198 on Golf Digest's top 200 but imo, if it wasn't at Pebble Beach, it would not be close to that.
What's looked for in a design? Distances? Use of the Terrain?
I've always wondered what it would be like to try and "design" one, because I could imagine some mean and hard holes, and I'm not talking about Coop's taste in women.
First and foremost is a great piece of land with routing to maximize the use of the available land and its features like streams, lakes, ponds, mounds, trees, scenery, etc. Next comes creating holes with excellent shot values which is creating holes with risk/reward factors which incorporate strategy and challenge a player's accuracy, distance, and finesse. The course needs to challenge a talented player and if you want to host a US Open, challenge the world's best players. Next, the holes have to have continuity. They have to have a consistency about them from one to the next-from 1-18 but they also need to have variety-not too many of the same type holes (ie 450 yard dogleg right par 4s.....185 yard uphill par 3s...etc). The greens, tees, and bunkering needs to have a consistency to them. The course also needs to have aesthetics that is impressive-especially within the course itself. And if you have a piece of land with great aesthetics outside the course-like a coastline at Pebble or the mountain views at Pikewood, you have something special IF the course is equally impressive. And in designing all this, you also need to factor in the fact that whatever tournament it is you want to hold will be there for only one week a year and the course also needs to be playable and enjoyable for the membership or public as the case may be. Plus there are issues with drainage, environmental issues, turf selection for the climate, practice facility, etc.
For my money, the best living architects are Coore/Crenshaw, Tom Doak, Tom Fazio, and Pete Dye. Dye has made quite a metamorphosis thru his long career and has gotten much better at using the land efficiently and not having to move dirt. Fazio is sort of the opposite. He gets a lot of high-dollar jobs like Shadow Creek now which was essentially a complete blank canvas to create whatever the owner wanted. Coore/Crenshaw and Doak are much better it leaving the terrain as much like it originally was and create much more natural looking courses.
Good luck designing your course.
Sounds like I'd be better suited at designing putt putt courses.
I could come up with some challenging holes, but the consistency you mention has to be the rub.
Watching the US Open this weekend I thought that the course looked challenging, but also like a ****** local course. It wouldn't surprise me to see Justice throw money at a new course at the Greenbrier, but I think you and Bru are correct and he needs to not focus in on getting a named golfer as the "designer" but a quality designer instead.
Tom Fazio designed the Snead Course at the Sporting Club at The Greenbrier. CB MacDonald, who is considered the Michelangelo of golf course architecture designed the Old White. The Greenbrier Course was originally a William Flynn design that Nicklaus re-designed for The Ryder Cup in 79. All those courses are considered world class and are revered by the architecture community and have great respect. Having Nicklaus, Palmer, Player and Trevino design a course appears to be an act of crying for attention. And although I don't have a ton of respect for Palmer's and Player' s design work (and I don't know if Trevino has ever designed anything), having 4 big egos trying to work together to design a course is too many cooks in the kitchen. It really does smell like disaster.They tried something similar at the World Golf Village with the King and Bear collaboration and The Slammer and Squire (Snead and Sarazen). Neither is well respected.
Excellent post. I've played the WGV. Excellent resort, facilities and HOF exhibits. The courses are fine for what they are: resort courses. They weren't meant for championship play but rather for the average golfer that is visiting the resort and want to play a round and have some interesting and memorable shots during the round after they pay way too much for the prviledge.