msu basketball expectations...
- Thread starter fedxdog
- Start date
And we're shown no signs of getting out of it. Every coach reaches the end of his productive time at a school. Usually when you hang onto a coach past that time, things get worse and the longer it goes, the faster the decline gets. As dawgstudent points out, if Stans couldn't get this team into the tournament, what makes you think he can get the next one in? Or the one after that?
Pretty much the only measure that matters is how you perform compared to other schools. You can have some discussions about which teams from different eras are better, but even most of that comparison will be how the teams did against other teams they actually competed against.
So forgetting seeding, traveling, matchups, luck, etc., it's as simple as you didn't deserve all of those bids? So if someone is in as a 12 seed, loses to a 5 seed, they didn't deserve the bid at all? Same for 11/6, 10/7, 9/8...<div>patdog said:
</div><div>Simply amazing deductive reasoning skills**
</div>
Sometimes when you plateau, you just enjoy being where you are and wait for it to naturally play out. If we were making the tournament more than half the time and just not making it to the Sweet 16, we'd probably need to stand pat.
To the extent we're on a plateau (and not a downward trajectory), you don't sit there and be content as a non-tournament team. The difference between missing the tournament by a little versus missing it by a lot is really not that significant. If we make the wrong move with the next coach, we'll end up in the same place as now: out of the tournament field. Not sure many people are going to care just how far out of the tournament field we end up. If we make the right decision, we get to go back to going to the tournament again, possibly even competing in it, which is a huge improvement.
To the extent we're on a plateau (and not a downward trajectory), you don't sit there and be content as a non-tournament team. The difference between missing the tournament by a little versus missing it by a lot is really not that significant. If we make the wrong move with the next coach, we'll end up in the same place as now: out of the tournament field. Not sure many people are going to care just how far out of the tournament field we end up. If we make the right decision, we get to go back to going to the tournament again, possibly even competing in it, which is a huge improvement.
Let's look at this year (let's ignore last year... even though we underachieved then, we all kind of expected it). We are hyped up to be one of the top teams in the SEC... behind Kentucky, for sure, but certainly have the talent to compete with Vanderbilt, Alabama, and Florida. <div>
</div><div>Considering the notion we are one of the top 2-4 teams in the league, let's look at where we really stand. We finished the year 8-8 in conference play. Our record Vs. the top 5 teams in the SEC was 3-4 this year... Somewhat respectable. Now, let's look at the bottom 6 teams of the SEC... what was our record vs. them? Try 3-5. So our winning percentage against the top 5 teams in the SEC was BETTER than our winning percentage against the BOTTOM 6 teams in our own conference... are you satisfied at all with that? And it's like that every year... we cannot take care of business against teams that we are clearly better than (going back to the notion that we were one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the conference), yet we have a losing record against the bottom 6? That's pathetic... that is coaching. Our coach can motivate us to play the better teams in the league, but not the teams we know we can beat on most any given night? Anything less than a 6-2 record in that group is adisappointment, but what we achieved was flat out embarrassing.</div><div>
</div><div>Now, let's look at our players. We were outscored in the paint this year by every team except Alabama and Arkansas at home. So you mean to tell me, we have the biggest tandem of big men in the league in Moultrie and Sidney, and only manage to outscore 2 teams on our 16 game conference schedule in the paint? Need I say more about this? Not to mention, how pathetic we are against zone defenses... that point has been hammered home already. </div><div>
</div><div>All these things point back to the coach. I feel a coach is ultimately supposed to do 3 things 1) Teach players how to master techniques and positioning so they can effectively perform (effectively practice) 2) motivate his or her players to give their all every single time they step onto the field/court and to play as a unit and rely on one another (positively representing the name on their jersey falls into this) 3) put their team in the best possible position to succeed. This includes, but is certainly not limited to, taking advantage of areas where you know you are better than the other guys (for instance, our big men. I don't think there was a team in the league that outmached our size down low... yet 14 of the 16 teams we played outplayed us down low). We struggle to do every single one of these things. </div>
</div><div>Considering the notion we are one of the top 2-4 teams in the league, let's look at where we really stand. We finished the year 8-8 in conference play. Our record Vs. the top 5 teams in the SEC was 3-4 this year... Somewhat respectable. Now, let's look at the bottom 6 teams of the SEC... what was our record vs. them? Try 3-5. So our winning percentage against the top 5 teams in the SEC was BETTER than our winning percentage against the BOTTOM 6 teams in our own conference... are you satisfied at all with that? And it's like that every year... we cannot take care of business against teams that we are clearly better than (going back to the notion that we were one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the conference), yet we have a losing record against the bottom 6? That's pathetic... that is coaching. Our coach can motivate us to play the better teams in the league, but not the teams we know we can beat on most any given night? Anything less than a 6-2 record in that group is adisappointment, but what we achieved was flat out embarrassing.</div><div>
</div><div>Now, let's look at our players. We were outscored in the paint this year by every team except Alabama and Arkansas at home. So you mean to tell me, we have the biggest tandem of big men in the league in Moultrie and Sidney, and only manage to outscore 2 teams on our 16 game conference schedule in the paint? Need I say more about this? Not to mention, how pathetic we are against zone defenses... that point has been hammered home already. </div><div>
</div><div>All these things point back to the coach. I feel a coach is ultimately supposed to do 3 things 1) Teach players how to master techniques and positioning so they can effectively perform (effectively practice) 2) motivate his or her players to give their all every single time they step onto the field/court and to play as a unit and rely on one another (positively representing the name on their jersey falls into this) 3) put their team in the best possible position to succeed. This includes, but is certainly not limited to, taking advantage of areas where you know you are better than the other guys (for instance, our big men. I don't think there was a team in the league that outmached our size down low... yet 14 of the 16 teams we played outplayed us down low). We struggle to do every single one of these things. </div>
"<span class="post-title">Have we declined as a program? Or have we declined compared to other schools?"
Both. We were arguably the 2 or 3rd best school in the conference in 03/04. We've gotten worse every year to now we're just middle of the pack SEC. In 03/04 the national media thought we were a program on the rise. Now we're considered dysfunctional, and under achieving.</span>
Both. We were arguably the 2 or 3rd best school in the conference in 03/04. We've gotten worse every year to now we're just middle of the pack SEC. In 03/04 the national media thought we were a program on the rise. Now we're considered dysfunctional, and under achieving.</span>
Let's go back to 2006:<div>
</div><div>2006-2007: Winthrop, South Carolina, Georgia; Result- Missed NCAAT, went to NIT Final 4 and lost a buzzer beater to West Virginia</div><div>2007-2008: Southern Illinois, Miami (OH), South Alabama, Georgia (SECT); Result, At-Large NCAAT bid, lost to 1 seeded Memphis in the second round</div><div>2008-2009: Washington State, Charlotte, South Alabama, San Diego; Result- Automatically Qualified for NCAAT (were barely going to make the NIT, otherwise), Lost to Wash.</div><div>2009-2010: Rider, Western Kentucky, Auburn; Result 1 seed NIT... outcoached by Roy Williams in the second round</div><div>2010-2011: Dumpster Fire. Not even touching this year. Missed the post-season altogether.</div><div>2011-2012: Georgia (twice), Auburn, LSU (not a bad loss... just went up 17 and blew it), Akron; Result- 4 seed in the NIT</div><div>
</div><div>When will you say enough is enough? How many times do you have to lose to ****** teams to realize that something needs to change? Maybe motivation tactics, philosophy, approach... how many times do you have to miss the NCAA Tournament for the SAME REASONS before you change something?</div>
</div><div>2006-2007: Winthrop, South Carolina, Georgia; Result- Missed NCAAT, went to NIT Final 4 and lost a buzzer beater to West Virginia</div><div>2007-2008: Southern Illinois, Miami (OH), South Alabama, Georgia (SECT); Result, At-Large NCAAT bid, lost to 1 seeded Memphis in the second round</div><div>2008-2009: Washington State, Charlotte, South Alabama, San Diego; Result- Automatically Qualified for NCAAT (were barely going to make the NIT, otherwise), Lost to Wash.</div><div>2009-2010: Rider, Western Kentucky, Auburn; Result 1 seed NIT... outcoached by Roy Williams in the second round</div><div>2010-2011: Dumpster Fire. Not even touching this year. Missed the post-season altogether.</div><div>2011-2012: Georgia (twice), Auburn, LSU (not a bad loss... just went up 17 and blew it), Akron; Result- 4 seed in the NIT</div><div>
</div><div>When will you say enough is enough? How many times do you have to lose to ****** teams to realize that something needs to change? Maybe motivation tactics, philosophy, approach... how many times do you have to miss the NCAA Tournament for the SAME REASONS before you change something?</div>