First let me say he needs 5 years to get things even started the way it needs to be. We start out well every year, but then comes the injury bug and we go down hill from there. I know all teams have these injuries. The difference is in depth. We don't have it. The only way to get it is too red-shirt our way to having two deep junior and senior. That takes time. There is no excuse for 8 men on the field and some of the bone head plays, like throwing the ball into the crowd after scoring a touchdown. That is on the coaching staff. But I really believe if he gets 5 years he will have the program in shape to get better. Right now it is not in that kind of shape. I am remembering how fans at Virginia Tech wanted to hang coach Beamer early in his carreer. I remember Iowas fans wanting to get rid of their coach and look at the year they had. If Mitch is not planning on giving Stoops 5 years then he shouldn't have hire him. There is my two cents worth!
My opinion on UK Football and Mark Stoops
- Thread starter Tapemaster8
- Start date
Agree with everything you said, except that throwing the ball into the stands is not the fault of the coaches. The fault with that is with Josh Forrest and Forrest alone.
Don't you think players should at least show some improvement from the beginning of the season through its' end?You can't honestly say that about the players or the team during Stoops three years.And don't you think the team should at least show some kind of fight,desire,hustle,togetherness,and we are going to win regardless of the opponent?And finally,don't you think the entire team should give it everything they have from beginning to end?Regardless of the talent level and maturity level of the team,these things should be evident.They were for Vandy and other lesser teams that UK played,but not all the time at UK and that starts with coaching and what that coach will except from his players.Now are you still sure Stoops and his staff should get 5 years?
If you liked Brooks then you should like Stoops he will be ahead of Brooks in wins at the end of next year and Stoops recruits Ohio, Brooks let Joker do all the recruiting and made a receiver out of Lorenzo LOL.. Brooks offense never worked so fired Hudson to save his job and replaced him with JOKER. I Don't like Stoops conservative air raid offense either.
The things you mentioned don't happen without depth. Can't improve throughout the yr when fatigue gets worse and worse throughout the yr. You get so fatigued that it looks like you are barely moving but the end of the yr. And then losing brings down everyone's morale. As a former player and Athletic Trainer I've been through this personally.
Then add in some coaching mistakes.....and you have a fall off the back half of the yr. It will be telling how the team comes out of the gate next yr. If we come out with max effort and energy you will know that Stoops still is motivating and has the ear of the team.
The schedule next yr is different too. In 2014 it was easy the first half then shifted to extremely hard. 2015 it was easier at first, hard in the middle, and then easier toward the end. To my knowledge 2015 is going to be a series of waves throughout the whole yr. This could work in our favor since we quite possibly won't have 4-5 hard games in a row. Not to mention that depth will be improved a little.
I could handle 5-7 in the third year if we looked competent doing it but there are no excuses for losing to Vandy. When you are 1st and goal at the 1 and you run three straight plays up the middle with a 185lb RB who likes to dance around to find a hole, that is not the situation to do it. Letting your interception prone QB call an audible at the 1 yard line to throw a fade pass is bad coaching. Going to OT to beat EKU is bad coaching. 8 men on the field to catch a punt is bad coaching. Calling timeout to punt the ball is bad coaching. Not calling a timeout to avoid a 5 yard penalty with your injured PK is bad coaching. Having a true freshman QB at UL run the same play over and over to the tune of 200 yards and 31 straight points is bad coaching. We do not have good coaches and improving depth will not change that. Do you think James Franklin had great depth at Vandy when he won 9 games two years straight? Either you can coach or you can't and I think the results are obvious on this staff.
This. Time to stop making excuses. I guess going to overtime against a FCS team is a result of lack of depth and talent. What a joke.
I think this actually has a measure of silver lining to it. We looked so bad, yet we still managed 5 wins.....and were very close to a bowl game. I think the difference is the talent we now have. I think that with the talent we have, if we looked "competent" we'd probably go 7-5 or 8-4.
Now, we can only sit back and pray.......hoping the staff and players figure out their shortcomings.
LOL - I'm sorry but no matter what my opinion on Stoops is, your one paragraph argument isn't so compelling I'm going to immediately change my mind!!
difference - Brooks started with fewer schollys and fewer players, in turn, over first 2-3 years
Good post.
People who know football openly acknowledge that building the UK's football program is a 5 year process. UK fans are crazy to start the 8 & 9 win talk when we win some early games. (My guess is that 99% of these come from either very young fans or people who look through very blue tinted glasses.) The fans who write "the people who think 6 wins is a successful season are people happy with mediocrity" must not understand the process of building a program. I don't even say "rebuild a program." Stoops began with Nothing. He didn't have players, facilities, or tradition.
My thoughts on Stoops and the state of the program. Unless the wheels completely fall off then Stoops needs 5 years. 6 wins should be goal for next year AND the following year. One net win increase every 2 years should be the realistic expectation for our program and the conference we play in.
Stoops has proven to do one thing well, and that is to recruit. Fball requires depth, and building experienced depth takes a lot of time in football. At the end of the day talent is a top priority and Stoops has us playing with the big boys.
Stoops must learn from some coaching mistakes. Things looked like a train wreck on multiple occasions this year. This ultimately falls on the head coach. I like having young energetic coaches and that's obviously paying off on the recruiting trail. However, he needs to acknowledge the need for some coaching changes and find a coaching mentor that he brings in to steady the ship. Maybe he can get this without bringing someone on staff.
I understand the fan's disappointment and threw my remote in frustration on several occasions this year. The OP made reference to Beamer at VaTech. I know we live in a different generation and people want to see immediate results regarding the number of wins. But, he's an example of a coach who had several bad years while building his program. His first SIX years were: 2-9, 3-8, 6-4, 6-5, 5-6 and 2-8. Can you imagine years four, five and six being 13-21. Wow. After that he was 93-29.
I'm not saying Stoops is the next Beamer. I am saying we don't know after year 3. Stoops may not get the job done. Changing coaches every time a new coach doesn't have a great start is a recipe for mediocrity. Programs with rich tradition of winning can and should make a quick change with a bad hire. (Think BCG with UK Bball) Programs that are trying to build a program from the ground up must make a hire and stay the course. This process is not fun or quick, but the climb up the SEC football ladder will be slow.
Sorry OP, you lost me at "he needs at least 5 years". I'm not sure where this notion of 5 years is coming from, maybe Mitch planted a few guys on here, but it's one of the silliest things I've ever seen. If you haven't seen all you need to see to know where this program is headed under Stoops after 3 years then I don't know what to tell you. Why is it that we as UK fans have such a hard time accepting that a coach is bad? We did this exact same thing at the end of Joker's third year (right before he was fired). People were on here arguing about his young talent and how he only needed a couple more years.
This team is regressing in every way. Stoops has made not only terrible in-game decisions (which HS coaches wouldn't make) but he's made absolutely terrible decisions in hiring his coaching staff...that's not even including the fact that he made the bizarre decision not to hire a special teams coach which ended up costing us at least one or two wins. Come on, are you all really going to let your emotions and your love for a guy because he's "our coach" rule the fact that he's killing our program right now? Do some of you really think that things are going to be better next year or the year after? What have any of you seen to make you think that? He's been here 3 years. THREE YEARS. Some of you act like he's been here 3 months. I thought maybe a blowout loss at home to a terrible UofL team would convince some of you, but apparently not even that has done it.
This team is regressing in every way. Stoops has made not only terrible in-game decisions (which HS coaches wouldn't make) but he's made absolutely terrible decisions in hiring his coaching staff...that's not even including the fact that he made the bizarre decision not to hire a special teams coach which ended up costing us at least one or two wins. Come on, are you all really going to let your emotions and your love for a guy because he's "our coach" rule the fact that he's killing our program right now? Do some of you really think that things are going to be better next year or the year after? What have any of you seen to make you think that? He's been here 3 years. THREE YEARS. Some of you act like he's been here 3 months. I thought maybe a blowout loss at home to a terrible UofL team would convince some of you, but apparently not even that has done it.
Last edited:
I am convinced coach stoops could show up to work every day driving his lawn tractor, wearing his dining room chandelier and instruct the team to recopy the Dead Sea scrolls with quill pens all day for a month straight and there'd still be people who think he deserves 5 years. wake up.
When discussing Beamer's "turnaround" at VPI many people seem to forget that the Hokies were 10-1 the year before he took over and 40-16 over the 5 years before he was hired. Ferentz has been at IA for 17 years now. His first 4 years he went 1-10, 3-9, 7-5 then 11-2.
I think most rational fans do believe CMS needs at least 4 years, maybe even 5, to make his mark. I think what fans are upset about is the the amount of money it will take to buy him out if he is unsuccessful after 5 years (~$8M, IIRC).
Peace
Last edited:
True, but would he have done that under Coaches Bryant, Claiborne or Brooks at UK? I don't think so, he has to toughen up as a coach.
There is a group that think it is somehow virtuous to stand four square behind the coaches, defend every criticism and even attack and/or question the fanhood of those that would have the audacity to question their infallibility
^Then there are those like myself who haven't completely chalked Stoops up as a complete failure yet.......nor a success.
1. It is entirely possible that he could fail miserably and be fired.
2. It is equally possible that the talent that he has recruited develops and deepens.....thus improving the product and record....and saving Stoops' job.......which in turn buys him time to develop his coaching ability.
1. It is entirely possible that he could fail miserably and be fired.
2. It is equally possible that the talent that he has recruited develops and deepens.....thus improving the product and record....and saving Stoops' job.......which in turn buys him time to develop his coaching ability.
Just pretty stupid to wish for the coach to be fired right now when he is not going to be fired now nor will he be fired December 2016 even if we were 0-12. the contract & the buyout is simple to understand, pretending it doesnt exist is childish and infantile.
Just foolish and unproductive to want something to happen that simply is not going to happen. Especially when what you want is even dumber, the same AD who hired Joker & Stoops getting to make the hire after you get the firing you want.
want REAL change in UK football? want the person REALLY responsible held to the fire? Then grow some testicles and aim your ammo at a higher office than Mark Stoops.
Just foolish and unproductive to want something to happen that simply is not going to happen. Especially when what you want is even dumber, the same AD who hired Joker & Stoops getting to make the hire after you get the firing you want.
want REAL change in UK football? want the person REALLY responsible held to the fire? Then grow some testicles and aim your ammo at a higher office than Mark Stoops.
The coach you quote in your signature, Fran Curci, whom you designate as coach of the 1976 SEC Championship team - here is his record as coach at Kentucky:
1973 -- 5 - 6
1974 -- 6 - 5
1975 -- 2 - 8 - 1
1976 -- 8 - 4
1977 -- 10 - 1
1978 -- 4 - 6 - 1
1979 -- 5 - 6
1980 -- 3 - 8
1981 -- 3 - 8
http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/coaches/fran-curci-1.html
The most interesting thing is the turnaround between years 3 and 4 - which is exactly where Coach Stoops finds himself now. And although Stoops did not show progress in Year 3 in terms of wins and losses, he didn't have the marked regression as Coach Curci did.
I'm not saying Coach Stoops is going to show an 8 - 4 type of turnaround next year, but what I'd argue is that if 3 years is enough time to evaluate a coach, as you strongly suggest in your post, then Coach Curci wouldn't have coached a 4th season and your sig would look a lot different.
In three years, name one, just one coaching move that CMS made that showed progress and smarts?
Just one:zzz:
The most interesting thing is Curci won 6 games in his second year. I suspect if Stoops won 6 games in year two (as did Curci) he would be on firm ground now.
If we go ahead and win the game Forrest is a hero for doing that.Should he have done it,no but the board here would be 90-10 in his favor
Right on! I have been sounding the same message. If Barney can not get the coaching fixed
All the talent in the world will not make it better. Better athletes will continue to do it on their own. Which will extrabate the problem. P
I cannot "remember why" the Cats fell off so dramatically in 1975 but Curci was very secure in his position having won more games in his first year than UK had won in any season since 1965. Rebuilding efforts (especially at schools w/o strong in state talent) often experience a bad year after achieving that so called "breakthrough" season. Same thing happened to Schnellenberger after his big 1990 (10-1-1) season; went 2-9 next year.
Peace
I think there were some fairly serious off field issues around that time and maybe a QB issue as well
I can't imagine one additional win in your second year is the key element.
As someone else said - he is on very firm ground. Message board posters don't make hiring and firing decisions - myself being the least qualified poster of all to do so.
I was actually responding to your OP that seemed to say Curci and Stoops are similar as Curci didn't find early success during his "turnaround." The fact is....Curci did in year two with a 6-5 record, and had Stoops won 6 or more (in either the second or third year), he would not be receiving the heat he is getting (even with the bouts of cluelessness on the sidelines). Finally, whether or not AD will discharge him is not really in doubt thanks to the ill advised extension and buyout (more of an indictment on AD's incompetence than anything else). However the bigger issue for UK is the fact that most of the FB world "thinks" Stoops is on the hot seat, and that may impact recruiting negatively. If Stoops doesn't find a way to win with the brutal schedule next year, is seen as "on the way out" and recruiting drys-up, he then will have no redeeming value to the UK FB equation. We'll be stuck (by virtue of the Barnhart extension and buyout) with a HC who can neither coach nor recruit.
I have been very optimistic and a strong supporter of Stoops and the team. I do agree, it will take at least 5 years to build a team that a coach wants. I think the building process with better players is on the strong side - best talent we have had in years. The big elephant in the room is in game coaching and planning from this staff. I was a supporter of Joker getting the opportunity - but it was also obvious he was wrong the guy by the end of his first season. Many people agreed he needed to go then, but Mitch did and most people agreed he should have been the coach his second year. Again, it became painfully obvious Joker needed to be replaced. Some people thought he needed to be given a chance for a third year (or was it we didn't want to buy out his contract?). We all know the results of that experience.
Now, people are saying 5 years for Coach Stoops. Surprise, I agree, and I think he has us headed the right way. However, he MUST show improvement in COACHING next year - or we should make a change. This was the year we could/should have won a lot of games - next year it will be much harder to win 6 games than it was this year. We could be a much better football team without improvement in record. From a coaching standpoint I'm not sure he has earned a fourth year - but from a recruiting standpoint he has. One point that I find interesting is this - Coach Stoops earns 25% more than ALL of his assistants combined. Two things jump out to me on that - one the AD is reluctant to "pay" a head coach millions of dollars by firing him. The other is that we are reluctant to change assistant coaches when that cost is minimal compared to the potential rewards. A good example, at least to me, was Lincoln Riley at Oklahoma. Last year the wheels were falling off Oklahoma - this year they are playing for the National Title. When people say you can't change a certain coaching position 3 years in a row because of continuity - that is naive to say at best. If a coach can not implement his plan after having a spring training and a pre season with a coach - who should be proven - then he shouldn't have been hired in the first place! If you made a mistake then admit it, fix it and move on. Coaching hires are like all things in life - sometimes they don't go as planned.
Go Big Blue!
Jnewc, NO, I'm not one of the people MB put on here. I have probably been a UK fan longer then you've been born. I realize it takes at least 5 years to build a team, even with good recruiting. When Joker left, the cupboard was bare, and all the recruits are not going to work out, regardless of stars. A coach has to be able to redshirt some players, especially linemen. It's hard for a 17 or 18 year old kid to compete against a 21 or 22 year old man. A coach must be at least two deep, and some positions 3 or 4 deep, as we saw in the Louisville game when we lost our two best running backs.
Did Stoops make mistakes in the games as the Head Coach? You bet he did, but hopefully he will learn from them. He has to learn to trust his OC, if not, fire him and get someone he does
trust.
The one thing I know, is that you must recruit good players if you ever want to improve. I don't know about you, but I want to see us win 9 or 10 games every year. Can Stoops do it, we'll have to wait and see, but I believe he can. This was his first HC job, so I figured there would be mistakes in his game calling. The game will slow down for him as he gets experience.
If we get rid of him now, who are you going to get to replace him? A good coach would not come here, knowing it takes more the 3 or 4 years to build a team, and the fans want him fired after 3 years. Just my opinion, and we know what they say about them!
OLD STOLL FIELD GUY!
Did you see ANY of the coaches chew his *** out?...should have!!!... they scored a touchdown in three plays after that kickoff... I have watched the first half replay of that came twice now and I saw Bobby Petrino absolutely light up his punter because he did not run off the field after he shanked that punt...
That's some interesting spin. We managed to win two of our 'scheduled' wins over horrible teams barely, including an FCS team in overtime.
BROOKs badly coached the 7/5 team he inherited in his second year the team was short on players but Brooks, Hudson and Archer never recruited a hand full of players from their prior connection and only won after replacing Hudson with Joker
I do respect your opinion - but once again my opinion is Brooks and his staff did much more with much less...your opinion basically says that brooks went 7-5 with inherited players yet said they were badly coached.....I cannot see this as a basis of proof as a matter of fact it seems to say as I had insinuated that the Brooks staff coached up worse players than we have now to a better record in an SEC East that was IMMENSLEY BETTER than the version CMS has had in front of him
But we won them. That's the point. We basically won the games off luck and talent alone. It is entirely possible that the talent rises and saves Stoops' job.........gives him time to get his act together.
Ooooorrrr, he could fail horribly. We'll just have to see.
They scored in 3 plays because that's when UL changed QBs. He pretty much scored in 3 plays for the remainder of the game. Forrest's spiking the ball didn't change anything. Coming into the game not prepared to face the UL QB that actually took more snaps on the season than any other did.