NU Basketball reconsidered

[NUCat320]

To those who are pleading for NU to lower its academic requirements even more for basketball... explain why Fitz has largely been able to put a winning product on the field, where he has to recruit ten times the guys Collins has to recruit. Simple logic tells you that if admissions are a big problem, Fitz would not be able to do that.

NU received 51,000 freshman applications this year. They're going to accept 2000 or so.

To me, "college sports" is supposed to be students competing against students. If there are kids on your team who aren't remotely comparable to your other students academically, they're what we used to call "ringers."

If they’re in class, which they will be, then they’re also students. There are lots of non-athletes in LOC and Comm Studies.

University admissions makes exceptions for fantastic musicians or performers and, already, for athletes. (Seriously, it is likely that zero percent of basketball players would get in if they were not basketball players.)

 

[stpaulcat]

To those who are pleading for NU to lower its academic requirements even more for basketball... explain why Fitz has largely been able to put a winning product on the field, where he has to recruit ten times the guys Collins has to recruit. Simple logic tells you that if admissions are a big problem, Fitz would not be able to do that.

NU received 51,000 freshman applications this year. They're going to accept 2000 or so.

To me, "college sports" is supposed to be students competing against students. If there are kids on your team who aren't remotely comparable to your other students academically, they're what we used to call "ringers."

That could be considered discrimination, against kids with superb athletic ability and lesser academic skills. If a school is ostensibly recruiting the best athletes, then recruit the best athletes. Let's not kid ourselves, while most of our athletes want the best education they can get, NU has a responsibility, competing in the B1G, to field the best teams possible, such that they are not doing the athletes they do recruit a disservice by handicapping them.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

I think anyone who looks at NU’s history knows there are a number of factors that have inhibited success — including NU’s history itself. Certainly academic demands create a much smaller pool of potential recruits — not just of kids who can get in, but who want to get in. At NU, if you’re not a one-and-done (and we’ve never had one), you’re going to work hard just to stay eligible. Not every kid wants to make that commitment.

I used to be violently opposed to lowering admission standards, but I’m to the point now where I say, hey if the coach and player know what they are getting into and think they can do it, go for it. I still don’t think it’s going to make a huge difference because we’re still not going to get one-and-dones and we still have those nagging institutional issues like lousy fan support, miserable history, and maybe an NIL problem, although none us really know if there are NU-related NIL activities out there and if so to what extent.

I’ve said it before, but I think Collins has done a pretty good job of recruiting, just based on the rankings and other offers NU recruits have gotten. But he and his staff have done a lousy job of development and winning games. So I suspect recruiting is going to get a lot harder for him, especially after Gragg announced he’s on the clock.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

When I was at NU, we were terrible at football - physically incapable of competing. But we were okay at basketball. Lots of people believed "we can never compete in football" but basketball was an area where we could be competitive, because it only required a few good players, with the thought that a good coach could get his team to out-execute the opposition and to some degree "outsmart" them.

You don't need "one-and-dones" to have a winning record in Big Ten basketball. Personally, I want 4 year student athletes. Thats a much bigger pool. It is dumb to chase players who see the university as a stopping point on the way to an NBA career. Way too much competition for those guys. Way too much cheating and slimy behavior.

But the coach has to be able to generate improvement from the players he gets. He has to be a plus strategist and "in-game" performer. We're missing that part.

The transfer portal "should" be a big plus for NU. Guys who show they can play AND get good grades at their college "should" be interested in Northwestern, purely for the degree they can earn. But not so much if the program is seen as garbage.

I agree that Gragg has put Collins in a worse position regarding recruiting. Its a mistake, but I suspect his hands were tied.

 

[NUera]

Absolutely nothing has changed about NU basketball in the last 22 years, you're right.

With respect, because I value you as a long-time fan, this is exactly the logic that got us where we are: “No, no, no… you don’t understand. THIS time things will be different.”

 

[hoosboot]

I think anyone who looks at NU’s history knows there are a number of factors that have inhibited success — including NU’s history itself. Certainly academic demands create a much smaller pool of potential recruits — not just of kids who can get in, but who want to get in. At NU, if you’re not a one-and-done (and we’ve never had one), you’re going to work hard just to stay eligible. Not every kid wants to make that commitment.

I used to be violently opposed to lowering admission standards, but I’m to the point now where I say, hey if the coach and player know what they are getting into and think they can do it, go for it. I still don’t think it’s going to make a huge difference because we’re still not going to get one-and-dones and we still have those nagging institutional issues like lousy fan support, miserable history, and maybe an NIL problem, although none us really know if there are NU-related NIL activities out there and if so to what extent.

I’ve said it before, but I think Collins has done a pretty good job of recruiting, just based on the rankings and other offers NU recruits have gotten. But he and his staff have done a lousy job of development and winning games. So I suspect recruiting is going to get a lot harder for him, especially after Gragg announced he’s on the clock.

Very much agree. 18-year old kids are very rapidly changing creatures, so projecting what they can develop into in 1-4 years and understanding how to develop them into that projection are among the most crucial skills at most college athletic programs. They aren't necessarily as crucial at places like Alabama football or Duke basketball and other places where talent arrives more completely developed (there are other coaching skills that likely are more important in these places.)

Unfortunately, NU hasn't done a great job with those projections and/or that development while several of our competitors in the B1G have.

 

[TheC]

Duke University embarrassed by a lack of sportsmanship? Duke University utilizing loopholes in regulations to claim a scholastic record of excellence it doesn’t deserve? Repugnant, two- faced hypocracy and anyone who wishes NU could be more like Duke should have their posting license on this forum canceled.

How about if we bring in NBA-level talent and go to the tournament regularly, but promise to shake everyone's hand after games. Then would it be ok?? Please???

 

[TheC]

To those who are pleading for NU to lower its academic requirements even more for basketball... explain why Fitz has largely been able to put a winning product on the field, where he has to recruit ten times the guys Collins has to recruit. Simple logic tells you that if admissions are a big problem, Fitz would not be able to do that.

NU received 51,000 freshman applications this year. They're going to accept 2000 or so.

To me, "college sports" is supposed to be students competing against students. If there are kids on your team who aren't remotely comparable to your other students academically, they're what we used to call "ringers."

While the logic that basketball should be easier than football to build makes sense, the experiment at NU tells us the opposite is true (caveat that n=1). It may be because football is more of a developmental sport and so you have time to catch kids up. It could be because, like basketball, there are 50 or so special kids every year who are on a different level, but in football, any single superstar can only make so much of a difference.

It also could be that lightening struck twice and we had two exceptional leaders in Barnett and then Fitz. It takes a special coach with a special plan to figure out a way to build a program at NU. I think you and I are on the same page when I say CCC has not figured that out. I believe we need a new coach, not because that is the magic cure, but because not doing so is basically giving up. At least you try, and when it fails, you try again. And you keep trying.

But along the way, I think we should drop this ridiculous notion that NU is special because we are so strict in who we admit. NU should strive for excellence in everything they do. If you are one of the best in the world at what you do, then that should count way more than grades or standardized tests. As long as you are a responsible person with a commitment to excellence, then there should be a place for you at NU.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

How about if we bring in NBA-level talent and go to the tournament regularly, but promise to shake everyone's hand after games. Then would it be ok?? Please???

Yes, shake hands at the end of the game.
Prove you respect the game and your opponent.
Don't be self-absorbed little babies and embarrass your university, even if you feel no attachment to it.

You don't need NBA level talent to make the tournament. You need a group of above average NCAA players.

If you want to make the Final 4, then you probably need an NBA player.

I'm all for the NBA running their own minor leagues. I'd still watch the college games.

 

[kaTNap]

After watching the first half of NC v Duke, NU has a LONG, LONG way to go. These two teams make NU look like high school, no wonder they cannot compete in the B1G. DUKE, think about it, comparable to NU academically with comparable student body. NU IS MISSING THE BOAT by not pursuing exceptional athletes such as those playing tonight. It is so obvious as to be almost criminal.

Duke's student body in general is comparable academically to NU, but Duke long ago gave up any pretense of academic standards in their basketball program. There are very few, if any, players on UNC's team who couldn't have been admitted to Duke on a basketball scholarship. Duke's average test scores for basketball players aren't any different from UNC's.

 

[Aging Booster]

Enough mid-major teams have success in the tournament to convince me that the right coach can succeed at NU.

Mid-majors do not play 20 games against Indiana, Michigan State, Wisconsin, OSU, Purdue, et.al. They have a much easier path to the tourney. How many games do you think this NU team would have won in the Atlantic Ten. the MAC or the Patriot League? My guess is that we'd look darn good in those leagues - good enough to entertain tourney consideration. We have to improve sufficiently to beat Big Ten teams - not mid majors - on a nightly basis.
As for lessening academic standards.., forget about it. WE ARE NORTHWESTERN and proud of it!

 

[stpaulcat]

Duke's student body in general is comparable academically to NU, but Duke long ago gave up any pretense of academic standards in their basketball program. There are very few, if any, players on UNC's team who couldn't have been admitted to Duke on a basketball scholarship. Duke's average test scores for basketball players aren't any different from UNC's.

If Duke players would only shake hands with the winning team after a game, maybe that wouldn't be so bad. When you think about the number of NU students whose only athletic skill is to operate a slide rule, the other extreme looks okay too. I know some academically pretty smart people who do bad stuff. Let us know when Kellogg starts teaching ethics.

 

[TheC]

Yes, shake hands at the end of the game.
Prove you respect the game and your opponent.
Don't be self-absorbed little babies and embarrass your university, even if you feel no attachment to it.

You don't need NBA level talent to make the tournament. You need a group of above average NCAA players.

If you want to make the Final 4, then you probably need an NBA player.

I'm all for the NBA running their own minor leagues. I'd still watch the college games.

I didn't see the end of the game, but are we sure Duke didn't stand around for a little bit watching UNC celebrate and then decide - the hell with it?? I've seen this more and more in college hoops where the winning team takes longer to celebrate their win on the court and some on the losing team decide they don't need to stick around. I don't really have a problem with that. If Duke raced right off the court as the final horn sounded, then I agree that is worse.

 

[NUCat320]

I didn't see the end of the game, but are we sure Duke didn't stand around for a little bit watching UNC celebrate and then decide - the hell with it?? I've seen this more and more in college hoops where the winning team takes longer to celebrate their win on the court and some on the losing team decide they don't need to stick around. I don't really have a problem with that. If Duke raced right off the court as the final horn sounded, then I agree that is worse.

Hahahahah are old grumpy people mad that Duke didn’t wait five minutes? Me, I was proud that Coach K both stayed and didn’t berate Love for his celebration or Manek for his sacreligious Jesus Christ superstar look.

If someone does not want NU basketball to be like Duke basketball, then that someone should focus on the local D3 school or high school. You play to win the game!

 

[NUera]

As for lessening academic standards.., forget about it. WE ARE NORTHWESTERN and proud of it!

What does this even mean?

 

[Aging Booster]

What does this mean?

It means that we are proud of our identity as a highly academic private university that does not compromise its ethics or academic standards in order to compete in Big Ten Athletics, which, with rare exception, we do quite well. Let me add that I am very confident that lowering academic standards to build a stronger basketball team is a non-starter at the school. We'd like to win more games, but not at the expense of compromising our academic integrity. We have to cheer for NU because of what it is, not try to change it into something it is not for the sake of a few wins on the hardcourt.

 

[stpaulcat]

Hahahahah are old grumpy people mad that Duke didn’t wait five minutes? Me, I was proud that Coach K both stayed and didn’t berate Love for his celebration or Manek for his sacreligious Jesus Christ superstar look.

If someone does not want NU basketball to be like Duke basketball, then that someone should focus on the local D3 school or high school. You play to win the game!

Not sure, but I think it is "Manic".

 

[kaTNap]

If Duke players would only shake hands with the winning team after a game, maybe that wouldn't be so bad. When you think about the number of NU students whose only athletic skill is to operate a slide rule, the other extreme looks okay too. I know some academically pretty smart people who do bad stuff. Let me know when Kellogg starts teaching ethics.

You started the thread by trying to draw some academic equivalency between Duke and NU. There isn't any on the basketball court, sorry. I have no idea what Kellogg teaching ethics or not teaching ethics has to do with that, sorry. Nor do I know what "academically smart people doing bad stuff" has to do with anything.
Northwestern tries to admit student athletes they can actually graduate with at least somewhat meaningful degrees. I think that's a worthwhile goal. There's a long list of universities already who bring in student athletes only to win games without much commitment to actually giving them an education. Google "Creighton Kevin Ross" if you want an egregious example.

 

[NUera]

It means that we are proud of our identity as a highly academic private university that does not compromise its ethics or academic standards in order to compete in Big Ten Athletics, which, with rare exception, we do quite well.

Ethics relates to moral principles. How is it immoral? We're talking about sports ffs.

 

[stpaulcat]

It means that we are proud of our identity as a highly academic private university that does not compromise its ethics or academic standards in order to compete in Big Ten Athletics, which, with rare exception, we do quite well.

Which handicaps their athletic teams such that they can't compete with their peers? That sounds like a compromise in itself, and not befitting a university which prides itself on intelligence.

 

[stpaulcat]

You started the thread by trying to draw some academic equivalency between Duke and NU. There isn't any on the basketball court, sorry. I have no idea what Kellogg teaching ethics or not teaching ethics has to do with that, sorry. Nor do I know what "academically smart people doing bad stuff" has to do with anything.
Northwestern tries to admit student athletes they can actually graduate with at least somewhat meaningful degrees. I think that's a worthwhile goal. There's a long list of universities already who bring in student athletes only to win games without much commitment to actually giving them an education. Google "Creighton Kevin Ross" if you want an egregious example.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, only expounding on what you said. Ethics are ethics, no matter where they are to be found, on the athletic field, in the classroom, in the boardroom. NU has no special claim in the realm of ethics, any more than Duke does. There is both the history of Duke energy (same founding family) and the history of NU investing heavily in promoting sugarwater (Pepsi). Neither University has any special claim in the realm of ethics. However, because Duke may be unethical in aspects of it's basketball program, that does not mean NU has to be too. We could have the same goal for, say, basketball, but achieve it differently. What we are doing, whether ethical or not, is not working. Although I believe there are grounds for saying NU's approach is not ethical by handicapping their athletic teams with respect to their peers.

 

[Styre]

With respect, because I value you as a long-time fan, this is exactly the logic that got us where we are: “No, no, no… you don’t understand. THIS time things will be different.”

FWIW, I used to agree with you. When Carmody was fired, I said it was a pointless move, because there were three major factors holding our program back that I saw as impossible to overcome if they were not resolved:

1. NU's academic standards for athletes
2. NU's utter refusal to invest anything more than the bare minimum into the basketball program
3. NU's reputation as the only major conference school to never make the tournament

Given all those issues, why make a move? Carmody got us to 4 NITs in 5 years, he clearly found some level of success, why not just let him keep trying? It's not like anyone else can do any better. We've had Hall of Fame coaches fail here, after all.

Well, they fired Carmody anyway and they hired Collins. And he went out, with factors 1 and 3 still firmly in place and only a set of blueprints for changing factor 2, and recruited a group of players that formed the core of NU's first-ever tournament team. While that was happening, the university finally invested hundreds of millions of dollars into a total overhaul of basketball facilities.

So now, even though Collins has been unable to achieve consistent success, two of the three factors holding the program back are completely off the table. All that's left are the academic standards. (NIL admittedly may become another major factor, but that's still in its early days.) And while I agree the standards are a significant issue, and I would like to see NU relax them, we've never hired a coach who didn't have to deal with horrendous facilities or a "cursed" reputation. The next coach will have a clean slate and new opportunities denied to every single one of his predecessors. Given that, I see no reason to believe that making a change is pointless and nothing is going to change.

Think about it this way: the last two coaches we hired each elevated the program to unprecedented (in the modern era) levels of success despite massive institutional obstacles. And now we have gorgeous facilities and the curse is over. Why shouldn't we think more improvement is possible from the next hire?

 

[IdahoAlum]

I don't think changing NU's admission requirements for athletes is really compromising anything because (a) the athlete still has to WANT to go to Northwestern, which means he or she has to be aware of how demanding the academics are going to be just to stay eligible and (b) the coach has to believe the kid is going to make grades, stay eligible and eventually graduate (or transfer as a student in good standing). So I trust no coach who wants to stay at NU for any length of time is going to risk that by admitting an athlete who is just completely unprepared for the rigors of NU.

So as I said above, if both the athlete and the coach know what they are in for and still want to give it a shot, then let them go for it. It won't take long to see if the "experiment" is working -- if not, kids will start transferring or getting declared academically ineligible pretty quickly, and then you tell your coach he or she is a lousy judge of academic credentials and rein him or her in.

I just don't believe letting the coach offer every athlete he or she deems capable is going to make a huge difference in the success of the program, though. Maybe it widens the potential recruiting pool by 10 percent, but that still doesn't address all the other institutional issues NU has lugged around for 100 years.

 

[Aging Booster]

I don't think changing NU's admission requirements for athletes is really compromising anything because (a) the athlete still has to WANT to go to Northwestern, which means he or she has to be aware of how demanding the academics are going to be just to stay eligible and (b) the coach has to believe the kid is going to make grades, stay eligible and eventually graduate (or transfer as a student in good standing). So I trust no coach who wants to stay at NU for any length of time is going to risk that by admitting an athlete who is just completely unprepared for the rigors of NU.

So as I said above, if both the athlete and the coach know what they are in for and still want to give it a shot, then let them go for it. It won't take long to see if the "experiment" is working -- if not, kids will start transferring or getting declared academically ineligible pretty quickly, and then you tell your coach he or she is a lousy judge of academic credentials and rein him or her in.

I just don't believe letting the coach offer every athlete he or she deems capable is going to make a huge difference in the success of the program, though. Maybe it widens the potential recruiting pool by 10 percent, but that still doesn't address all the other institutional issues NU has lugged around for 100 years.

Years ago I published a similar note. I repeat the message here because it seems germane to the conversation.
Professors generally teach to the 80th percentile. The books chosen, the language used in class, the form and content of discussions, and the tests/essay assignments are directed at the 80th percentile. At a school like Northwestern, Yale, or Stanford, there is little difference between the very top students and the bottom students in vocabulary, raw intelligence, and even preparedness. Relative success in a particular class is more a factor of interest and effort than other factors. These are unusual institutions! At most schools, there is a huge difference between the 99th percentile and the 5th percentile. The students do not know or use the same vocabularies, have very different HS preparations, and have widely disparate abilities. Administrations at these schools know that many students will flunk out, fail to finish degrees, or struggle to pass courses. NU does not consider these reasonable options for the students it admits. We cannot ask profs to "dummy down" courses for a few athletes; we cannot exploit, shame, and embarrass young student-athletes by asking them to sit in classes beyond their abilities so that we can win more games; we cannot deprive deserving students of positions at the school because lesser students who happen to be athletes have taken those spots. These are matters of ethics, integrity, and educational standards. I applaud NU for not lessening academic standards for athletes.

 

[NUCat320]

NU athletes already have a far easier admissions bar than “normal students”.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I don't think changing NU's admission requirements for athletes is really compromising anything because (a) the athlete still has to WANT to go to Northwestern, which means he or she has to be aware of how demanding the academics are going to be just to stay eligible and (b) the coach has to believe the kid is going to make grades, stay eligible and eventually graduate (or transfer as a student in good standing). So I trust no coach who wants to stay at NU for any length of time is going to risk that by admitting an athlete who is just completely unprepared for the rigors of NU.

So as I said above, if both the athlete and the coach know what they are in for and still want to give it a shot, then let them go for it. It won't take long to see if the "experiment" is working -- if not, kids will start transferring or getting declared academically ineligible pretty quickly, and then you tell your coach he or she is a lousy judge of academic credentials and rein him or her in.

I just don't believe letting the coach offer every athlete he or she deems capable is going to make a huge difference in the success of the program, though. Maybe it widens the potential recruiting pool by 10 percent, but that still doesn't address all the other institutional issues NU has lugged around for 100 years.

I agree that just lowering admissions likely won’t have a significant impact. I believe that most arguing for taking more chances acknowledge that doing that in itself will not turn the ship completely around. It is one of a half dozen or so things that need to be changed in order to improve.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Years ago I published a similar note. I repeat the message here because it seems germane to the conversation.
Professors generally teach to the 80th percentile. The books chosen, the language used in class, the form and content of discussions, and the tests/essay assignments are directed at the 80th percentile. At a school like Northwestern, Yale, or Stanford, there is little difference between the very top students and the bottom students in vocabulary, raw intelligence, and even preparedness. Relative success in a particular class is more a factor of interest and effort than other factors. These are unusual institutions! At most schools, there is a huge difference between the 99th percentile and the 5th percentile. The students do not know or use the same vocabularies, have very different HS preparations, and have widely disparate abilities. Administrations at these schools know that many students will flunk out, fail to finish degrees, or struggle to pass courses. NU does not consider these reasonable options for the students it admits. We cannot ask profs to "dummy down" courses for a few athletes; we cannot exploit, shame, and embarrass young student-athletes by asking them to sit in classes beyond their abilities so that we can win more games; we cannot deprive deserving students of positions at the school because lesser students who happen to be athletes have taken those spots. These are matters of ethics, integrity, and educational standards. I applaud NU for not lessening academic standards for athletes.

I just can’t buy this argument at all. I know you are/were and educator for your career, but the argument breaks down when you imply profs are being asked to “dummy down” classes. I don’t believe there is any evidence of this at NU. There is at other institutions and with that point, I agree that it shouldn’t be acceptable. NU offers significant help ( tutors etc) for athletes but I don’t believe I have EVER heard of an example where classes are altered for athletes or these athletes are steered to meaningless classes/majors.

My beef is the position some take that these kids can’t possibly succeed at Rigorous NU. I say in most cases that is bunk. It’s been proven as bunk with the academic success of NU athletes. How many of these “marginal” admissions are academic all-Big?

 

[stpaulcat]

If a superb athlete does not want to be a serious student, he or she should not come to NU, However, if so, he or she should be given a chance and support. To argue that across the board, academically less qualified athletes cannot or will not succeed at NU is bunk. So what if they lower the admissions standards by some tiny percentile. Some can, some cannot. Give the ones who want to try, the opportunity. After all, isn't that what education is all about? Much of this is simply elitism.

 

[NUera]

We cannot ask profs to "dummy down" courses for a few athletes;

We already have “dummied down” courses and majors for athletes. I took a few whenever I needed to boost my GPA. You are kidding yourself if you do not believe this to be the case. Athletes who want a challenge take challenging courses. And then there’s everyone else.

we cannot exploit, shame, and embarrass young student-athletes by asking them to sit in classes beyond their abilities so that we can win more games;

This seems righteous on the surface — except no one is asking them to take such classes. See above.

we cannot deprive deserving students of positions at the school because lesser students who happen to be athletes have taken those spots.

What makes a student deserving? Do you also believe that NU shouldn’t strive for diversity by favoring a student who has slightly lesser grades than another student bc of their ethnic or socioeconomic background? Does a student who DIRECTLY generates tens of millions for the university while enrolled not provide something that a comm studies major doesn’t and thus become deserving?

These are matters of ethics, integrity, and educational standards. I applaud NU for not lessening academic standards for athletes.

I used to think the way you did. Then I realized no one cares outside of our little bubble of alums patting each other on the back. In the end it’s just us sitting high on our horse looking down on everyone else saying: "Look at us. We're so smart we don't even care about winning as long as our players are smarter than everyone else’s -- because sports don't matter in life, being smart does. We'll lose and still be fulfilled by our 'academic integrity,' honor and 401ks. And if we ever do beat you, we’ll make sure you dummies know you got beat by smarty pants who did it “the right way,” as opposed to you compromising plebs. (Not to mention Duke!) Not that we'll care or keep scores, though, because, you know, sports don't matter." These days that sort of elitist snobbery smacks of… privilege.

You wanna know what’s really unethical? Being the Miami Marlins of the B1G — taking the money without ever trying to carry our weight.

Either play to win or drop to DII already. That is… If we’re willing to leave the cash. And, more importantly, the chance to look down on everyone else.

 

[NUera]

So now, even though Collins has been unable to achieve consistent success, two of the three factors holding the program back are completely off the table. All that's left are the academic standards. (NIL admittedly may become another major factor, but that's still in its early days.)

You overlooked the portal. Bc of our up-and-down nature we are dangerously close to becoming a weigh station program — especially in football — for players who earn degrees/develop and then showcase for the pros on grad transfers. (Btw I know this has been debunked but I still wouldn’t be surprised to see Nance pop up at a blue blood program.)

 

[NUera]

My beef is the position some take that these kids can’t possibly succeed at Rigorous NU. I say in most cases that is bunk. It’s been proven as bunk with the academic success of NU athletes. How many of these “marginal” admissions are academic all-Big?

I'm sure they'd say it's because we let in "STUDENT-athletes." But that doesn't take into account the lowered academic threshold for athletes. So either NU isn't as hard as people make it out to be, or the athletes with lower board scores are in easy majors/get enough support to be Academic All B1G despite their supposed "reduced" academic abilities.

Either way, if the overall issue is that "athletes should be able to graduate," we can clearly go a lot lower with our minimum scores before everyone flunks out.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Years ago I published a similar note. I repeat the message here because it seems germane to the conversation.
Professors generally teach to the 80th percentile. The books chosen, the language used in class, the form and content of discussions, and the tests/essay assignments are directed at the 80th percentile. At a school like Northwestern, Yale, or Stanford, there is little difference between the very top students and the bottom students in vocabulary, raw intelligence, and even preparedness. Relative success in a particular class is more a factor of interest and effort than other factors. These are unusual institutions! At most schools, there is a huge difference between the 99th percentile and the 5th percentile. The students do not know or use the same vocabularies, have very different HS preparations, and have widely disparate abilities. Administrations at these schools know that many students will flunk out, fail to finish degrees, or struggle to pass courses. NU does not consider these reasonable options for the students it admits. We cannot ask profs to "dummy down" courses for a few athletes; we cannot exploit, shame, and embarrass young student-athletes by asking them to sit in classes beyond their abilities so that we can win more games; we cannot deprive deserving students of positions at the school because lesser students who happen to be athletes have taken those spots. These are matters of ethics, integrity, and educational standards. I applaud NU for not lessening academic standards for athletes.

I think you have stated the perspective of many alums pretty well here.
I don't think professors dumb down classes for the sake of an athlete - that would be crazy and legitimate profs wouldn't do it. What they will do is provide extra help or even concessions to that specific student.

There are DEFINITELY classes at NU where the word is out that the course is easy. Athletes and non-athletes make their choices to enroll in those classes. I took Astronomy because I needed an A to balance out the ***-kicking I feared I was going to take in Finite Element Analysis. There are degrees that are not as strenuous. I don't have a problem with that. Wealthy donors and alums can get their under-qualified kids into Northwestern too - its not just athletes.

Stanford and Northwestern both lower their standards for athletes, but their academic standards for athletes are still higher than almost anybody else. Both schools win national championships - just not in football and basketball. My distaste for Duke is that they legitimized the "one and done" approach. This was purely the result of the ego-maniac Coach K getting tired of losing to Rick Pitino and other coaching degenerates. I don't believe in compromising the integrity of the university like that - recruiting hired guns to play a year of a sport and then move on. Its so "SEC" where the university is known ONLY for its sports teams.

And that is why Northwestern has taken the path it has. You have to set standards and live by them. If thats elitist, then we need most people to aspire to something higher.

 

[NUera]

My distaste for Duke is that they legitimized the "one and done" approach. This was purely the result of the ego-maniac Coach K getting tired of losing to Rick Pitino and other coaching degenerates. I don't believe in compromising the integrity of the university like that - recruiting hired guns to play a year of a sport and then move on.

Honestly my feeling is "Who cares?" Truly. One student leaving out of 8,000 doesn't cheapen my degree -- and people drop out of NU all the time to start careers and there is never an uproar. You can't say athletes are students like everyone else and should be held to the same standards -- then get mad when they decide to leave like everyone else is free to.

Also, we ain't getting one-and-dones any time soon.

 

[NUCat320]

Honestly my feeling is "Who cares?" Truly. One student leaving out of 8,000 doesn't cheapen my degree -- and people drop out of NU all the time to start careers and there is never an uproar. You can't say athletes are students like everyone else and should be held to the same standards -- then get mad when they decide to leave like everyone else is free to.

Also, we ain't getting one-and-dones any time soon.

Zooey Deschanel embarrassed NU when she left to make Almost Famous. (Sorry for going all pop culture here.)

 

[Styre]

You overlooked the portal. Bc of our up-and-down nature we are dangerously close to becoming a weigh station program — especially in football — for players who earn degrees/develop and then showcase for the pros on grad transfers. (Btw I know this has been debunked but I still wouldn’t be surprised to see Nance pop up at a blue blood program.)

I don't think the portal has any sort of unique effect on NU, but yes, it does add another layer of recruiting for any NU coach with all the same existing limitations.

 

[NUera]

Zooey Deschanel embarrassed NU when she left to make Almost Famous. (Sorry for going all pop culture here.)

Sometimes I find myself metaphorically looking out the window of 1835 Hinman wondering when she’ll return

 

[NUera]

I don't think the portal has any sort of unique effect on NU, but yes, it does add another layer of recruiting for any NU coach with all the same existing limitations.

Indeed. We’re not the sort of school that changes coaches when things are going well. Ours tend to take over bad programs and stay bad for a few years, which will make it hard to keep kids. So the portal will be an immediate and looming complication for anyone who takes over.

Ultimately, the initial chaos of the portal will settle into an equilibrium with feeder programs, poacher programs and neutral programs. Lower schools and most mid-majors will become developing grounds for bigger programs who will take their stars. NU won’t be spared by its P5 status, because while it might help us bring in kids initially, history has shown that league quality will keep us in the lower 3rd (even during NU’s “greatest season ever,” we only managed to come in 6th) leading kids to want to go play for a winner. Seems inevitable to me that the portal will hurt us more than most unless we can quickly change our program rep.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Indeed. We’re not the sort of school that changes coaches when things are going well. Ours tend to take over bad programs and stay bad for a few years, which will make it hard to keep kids. So the portal will be an immediate and looming complication for anyone who takes over.

Ultimately, the initial chaos of the portal will settle into an equilibrium with feeder programs, poacher programs and neutral programs. Lower schools and most mid-majors will become developing grounds for bigger programs who will take their stars. NU won’t be spared by its P5 status, because while it might help us bring in kids initially, history has shown that league quality will keep us in the lower 3rd (even during NU’s “greatest season ever,” we only managed to come in 6th) leading kids to want to go play for a winner. Seems inevitable to me that the portal will hurt us more than most unless we can quickly change our program rep.

The portal only hurts us when we have good players seeking to raise their profile at other schools.
Call it the Miller Kopp syndrome. It can involve delusion on the player's part. Normally our players are smart enough to not be delusional - if they came to NU it probably wasn't solely for basketball.

But, if you have a solid program, for a school with NU's reputation, the transfer portal will be a big positive. We will be able to pick and choose from grad students and quality players who know they're not going to play in the NBA - as long as their college transcripts indicate they are willing to work academically.

So yeah, until the program can win consistently, our best players are going to be a threat to leave, but only if they undervalue the NU diploma and overvalue their talents on the court.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Honestly my feeling is "Who cares?" Truly. One student leaving out of 8,000 doesn't cheapen my degree -- and people drop out of NU all the time to start careers and there is never an uproar. You can't say athletes are students like everyone else and should be held to the same standards -- then get mad when they decide to leave like everyone else is free to.

Also, we ain't getting one-and-dones any time soon.

I am not "mad" at the players for taking advantage of the situation.
I'm objecting to a school accepting dramatically underqualified athletes knowing full well that they are not going to pursue an education.

Those are totally different things.

 

[Styre]

Indeed. We’re not the sort of school that changes coaches when things are going well. Ours tend to take over bad programs and stay bad for a few years, which will make it hard to keep kids. So the portal will be an immediate and looming complication for anyone who takes over.

Ultimately, the initial chaos of the portal will settle into an equilibrium with feeder programs, poacher programs and neutral programs. Lower schools and most mid-majors will become developing grounds for bigger programs who will take their stars. NU won’t be spared by its P5 status, because while it might help us bring in kids initially, history has shown that league quality will keep us in the lower 3rd (even during NU’s “greatest season ever,” we only managed to come in 6th) leading kids to want to go play for a winner. Seems inevitable to me that the portal will hurt us more than most unless we can quickly change our program rep.

Yes, what we need to avoid is a Fred Hoiberg-like death spiral, where 75% of his roster transfers every year because they're bad, and reconstructing the whole team on the fly just leads to them being bad again. That said, it's early days in the unlimited transfer era, but thus far we seem to be avoiding the utter chaos that has hit schools like Nebraska. Whether that's down to the players wanting to stick with Collins or the appeal of the university itself (or both) is hard to say without insider knowledge.

 

[NUera]

Yes, what we need to avoid is a Fred Hoiberg-like death spiral, where 75% of his roster transfers every year because they're bad, and reconstructing the whole team on the fly just leads to them being bad again. That said, it's early days in the unlimited transfer era, but thus far we seem to be avoiding the utter chaos that has hit schools like Nebraska. Whether that's down to the players wanting to stick with Collins or the appeal of the university itself (or both) is hard to say without insider knowledge.

*Shudder* It took 10 years to recover from KO. May those days never return.

Thing is, these days it doesn’t take much to send a program like NU back there. Say we groom another fringe-draftable guy like Shurna or Crawford (or even Nance), but, idk, Duke or Kentucky suddenly need a guy. A couple NILs and the chance to play for a program that sends guys to the NBA might be enough to pull our star away. Now we’re in Rex Walters situation. Or even just Steve LePore. The first domino.

It’s a thought exercise, I admit, but it’s a good way of determining whether we’re a have or a have-not in an NIL/portal world. If your program can implode from the loss of one player, you’re a feeder school. And that’s why I suggest the portal is a way bigger issue for us than people realize.