NU Basketball reconsidered

[stpaulcat]

I am not "mad" at the players for taking advantage of the situation.
I'm objecting to a school accepting dramatically underqualified athletes knowing full well that they are not going to pursue an education.

Those are totally different things.

How do you feel about a school accepting underqualified athletes, within reason, knowing full well they are going to do their darndest to pursue an education?

 

[NUera]

How do you feel about a school accepting underqualified athletes, within reason, knowing full well they are going to do their darndest to pursue an education?

Silly, Stpaulcat… The only place our athletes are allowed to be under-qualified is on the field of play. By that point NU gets $$$ regardless and the snobs get to pat themselves on the back and say “our boys lose the right way!”

 

[stpaulcat]

Silly, Stpaulcat… The only place our athletes are allowed to be under-qualified is on the field of play. By that point NU gets $$$ regardless and the snobs get to pat themselves on the back and say “our boys lose the right way!”

Excellent point, and the disadvantage I've been suggesting for some time that is shooting our major sports programs in the foot.

 

[vee4three]

Excellent point, and the disadvantage I've been suggesting for some time that is shooting our major sports programs in the foot.

For reasons already captured in this thread, I wholeheartedly support easing some of the academic requirements for prospective athletic recruits, recognizing that they’re already lower than the rest of the student body.

At the same time, I don’t find admissions to be a particularly compelling scapegoat for the state of the basketball program. Here are the 247 conference recruiting ranks for the 2018-2021 incoming classes (excluding transfers, I believe) for a handful of Big Ten schools. Four of these teams have made the NCAA tournament in each of the past two seasons, and one of these teams is Northwestern:

A: 13-14-5-5
B: 7-7-14-6
C: 12-11-11-11
D: 10-13-4-13
E: 9-8-6-8

The two with the lowest cumulative total, C and D, are Iowa and Rutgers, respectively. A is Wisconsin (Johnny Davis was ranked a little behind Ty Berry in 2020!) and E is Purdue, leaving B as Northwestern.

Of course, different services will give different rankings – 247 just made it super easy to get the relative positioning in the Big Ten – and these lists aren’t foolproof. But they should be directionally accurate, anyway, and the numbers above don’t suggest to me that admissions are the problem…recruiting in the middle of this conference should have you competing for NCAA tournament berths. Northwestern clearly isn’t doing that right now, and I’d blame some combination of talent evaluation, player development, scheme and roster construction before getting worked up that someone nixed Paul Mulcahy, or whatever.

As a side note: does anyone have a sense for how stringent our standards for potential transfers are, relative to other schools and/or what’s required of high school seniors? I would guess transfers are easier to get in (less emphasis on test scores, hopefully?), but I have no actual evidence for that.

 

[stpaulcat]

For reasons already captured in this thread, I wholeheartedly support easing some of the academic requirements for prospective athletic recruits, recognizing that they’re already lower than the rest of the student body.

At the same time, I don’t find admissions to be a particularly compelling scapegoat for the state of the basketball program. Here are the 247 conference recruiting ranks for the 2018-2021 incoming classes (excluding transfers, I believe) for a handful of Big Ten schools. Four of these teams have made the NCAA tournament in each of the past two seasons, and one of these teams is Northwestern:

A: 13-14-5-5
B: 7-7-14-6
C: 12-11-11-11
D: 10-13-4-13
E: 9-8-6-8

The two with the lowest cumulative total, C and D, are Iowa and Rutgers, respectively. A is Wisconsin (Johnny Davis was ranked a little behind Ty Berry in 2020!) and E is Purdue, leaving B as Northwestern.

Of course, different services will give different rankings – 247 just made it super easy to get the relative positioning in the Big Ten – and these lists aren’t foolproof. But they should be directionally accurate, anyway, and the numbers above don’t suggest to me that admissions are the problem…recruiting in the middle of this conference should have you competing for NCAA tournament berths. Northwestern clearly isn’t doing that right now, and I’d blame some combination of talent evaluation, player development, scheme and roster construction before getting worked up that someone nixed Paul Mulcahy, or whatever.

As a side note: does anyone have a sense for how stringent our standards for potential transfers are, relative to other schools and/or what’s required of high school seniors? I would guess transfers are easier to get in (less emphasis on test scores, hopefully?), but I have no actual evidence for that.

Admissions is certainly not the only thing.

 

[TheC]

I am not "mad" at the players for taking advantage of the situation.
I'm objecting to a school accepting dramatically underqualified athletes knowing full well that they are not going to pursue an education.

Those are totally different things.

Why not? Seriously, where is the harm in a kid coming to school for one year? Any exposure to the structure and discipline of college is a good thing for the kid and his development. It doesn't hurt the academic reputation of the school one bit. And, it bolsters the overall reputation of the school by providing a nationally recognized basketball team. The experiment has been done enough times at NU and other schools to prove that successful sports lifts the entire university. I was against the one-and-dones initially, but after some time has passed, I'm not sure I see that it does any harm. Duke is unique in that it has a roster full of one and dones, but the occasional individual is not a bad thing.

 

[Sec_112]

You wanna know what’s really unethical? Being the Miami Marlins of the B1G — taking the money without ever trying to carry our weight.

Either play to win or drop to DII already.

Applause, applause!!

"Carry our weight" = re-investing in the foundation that helps the athletes who earn the hundreds of millions. Yes, NU finally did it after X decades.

 

[Sec_112]

I think all of you who are concerned about entrance requirements, academic integrity, graduation rates and the validity of courses are living in the NU fantasy world about the concerns of an athlete.

I’m not even sure NU’s players are as concerned about academics as the “fan base” is. As I said in another long-ago response Michael Thompson, Hearn, Shurna, Falzon, Crawford, Olah, Law, Pardon, Van Zegren and Lindsey are all pounding away in the G-League and overseas. That's a long time for Thompson, Hearn and Shurna. None of these guys is going to be a longtime NBA player. They obviously find something more appealing and lucrative about the minor league and G-League life than the traditional NU post-grad world.

I’d love NU and its base to get a little more realistic about what players want out of their college basketball experience. Here’s an academic idea? How about an exhaustive study about what players really want? I know, I know … that would actually take the athlete into consideration.

If the study finds they don’t care about academics, why should NU? Start helping them with their chosen goal and its realities just as you do every other student.

However, if you’re one of the people screaming for top-notch athletics, you’re killing that idea by nitpicking about entrance, integrity and the academic experience. History tells you that. The University of Chicago and the Ivy League tell you that. NU’s history screams that. The experience of multiple schools around the country tells you that. I’d like to hear any example of academic excellence (throughout an entire university) and true, CONSISTENT (key word) athletic excellence in the major sports. Three coaches ago, Stanford basketball was an example. And??

If you want true academic excellence, you’re unrealistic if you don’t think there’s a price that comes with that.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

How do you feel about a school accepting underqualified athletes, within reason, knowing full well they are going to do their darndest to pursue an education?

As I have stated many times and even in this thread - I am totally fine with it.

When some of you guys talk about leveling the playing field, I think you should look directly at those schools, of which Duke is easily the most prominent, who are essentially cheating by slashing the standards they apply to their athletes, specifically their basketball players.

The better your academic reputation, the higher your standards should be.

Seems incredibly obvious to me that is the definition of "fair."

 

[NUCat320]

As I have stated many times and even in this thread - I am totally fine with it.

When some of you guys talk about leveling the playing field, I think you should look directly at those schools, of which Duke is easily the most prominent, who are essentially cheating by slashing the standards they apply to their athletes, specifically their basketball players.

The better your academic reputation, the higher your standards should be.

Seems incredibly obvious to me that is the definition of "fair."

At what point does “within reason” or “fair” become “cheating” or “slashing the standards”?

NU already slashes the standards.

This argument is dumb.

I really wish we’d had a game to talk about over the last month

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I think all of you who are concerned about entrance requirements, academic integrity, graduation rates and the validity of courses are living in the NU fantasy world about the concerns of an athlete.

I’m not even sure NU’s players are as concerned about academics as the “fan base” is. As I said in another long-ago response Michael Thompson, Hearn, Shurna, Falzon, Crawford, Olah, Law, Pardon, Van Zegren and Lindsey are all pounding away in the G-League and overseas. That's a long time for Thompson, Hearn and Shurna. None of these guys is going to be a longtime NBA player. They obviously find something more appealing and lucrative about the minor league and G-League life than the traditional NU post-grad world.

I’d love NU and its base to get a little more realistic about what players want out of their college basketball experience. Here’s an academic idea? How about an exhaustive study about what players really want? I know, I know … that would actually take the athlete into consideration.

If the study finds they don’t care about academics, why should NU? Start helping them with their chosen goal and its realities just as you do every other student.

However, if you’re one of the people screaming for top-notch athletics, you’re killing that idea by nitpicking about entrance, integrity and the academic experience. History tells you that. The University of Chicago and the Ivy League tell you that. NU’s history screams that. The experience of multiple schools around the country tells you that. I’d like to hear any example of academic excellence (throughout an entire university) and true, CONSISTENT (key word) athletic excellence in the major sports. Three coaches ago, Stanford basketball was an example. And??

If you want true academic excellence, you’re unrealistic if you don’t think there’s a price that comes with that.

Couldn’t agree more. Almost all of the people clamoring for “academic integrity” ( whatever that means) have never been a D1 athlete or been part of a program in any way other than being a fan. What’s really being protected here? Is it the athlete or is it the reputation of the degree that people here have earned?

 

[NJCat]

What’s really being protected here? Is it the athlete or is it the reputation of the degree that people here have earned?

Neither.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Neither.

Exactly, it doesn’t make a hill of beans difference.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

To those who are pleading for NU to lower its academic requirements even more for basketball... explain why Fitz has largely been able to put a winning product on the field, where he has to recruit ten times the guys Collins has to recruit. Simple logic tells you that if admissions are a big problem, Fitz would not be able to do that.

NU received 51,000 freshman applications this year. They're going to accept 2000 or so.

To me, "college sports" is supposed to be students competing against students. If there are kids on your team who aren't remotely comparable to your other students academically, they're what we used to call "ringers."

Scholarshipped D1 football players have never - ever - in your entire lifetime, at any school, been comparable in terms of academic standards to their fellow students.

 

[stpaulcat]

Regarding NU lowering admissions standards:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+the+music+man&ru=/search?q=youtube+the+music+man&FORM=QSRE3&view=detail&mmscn=vwrc&mid=60314E5CF45504F16B0F60314E5CF45504F16B0F&FORM=WRVORC&msclkid=ee31e45fb50e11ec80fc801e937119af

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Scholarshipped D1 football players have never - ever - in your entire lifetime, at any school, been comparable in terms of academic standards to their fellow students.

You have to read and interpret better. What you wrote has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[NUera]

At the same time, I don’t find admissions to be a particularly compelling scapegoat for the state of the basketball program. Here are the 247 conference recruiting ranks

IMO recruit rankings outside the 5-star and high 4-star categories are irrelevant. (Nick Freundt was ranked higher than Shurna, for pete's sake.) But what IS relevant is admissions. Doesn't matter what team you watch in the NCAA tournament -- from a legacy program to the tinniest mid-major, their best player is almost always someone who wouldn't have gotten through NU admissions. Simply put: Our admissions makes our recruiting margin for error razor thin -- and then we have to get the remaining players to actually want to come here.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

IMO recruit rankings outside the 5-star and high 4-star categories are irrelevant. (Nick Freundt was ranked higher than Shurna, for pete's sake.) But what IS relevant is admissions. Doesn't matter what team you watch in the NCAA tournament -- from a legacy program to the tinniest mid-major, their best player is almost always someone who wouldn't have gotten through NU admissions. Simply put: Our admissions makes our recruiting margin for error razor thin -- and then we have to get the remaining players to actually want to come here.

Northwestern, in a vacuum, is a highly desirable place for any student who can get thru admissions.
Including the basketball players.

Highly desirable.

But you don't turn around a program by bringing in NBA prospects. They won't come.
Or if they do, they will leave,
It is a waste of time "competing" for the Top 50 players, because we cannot compete.
You build from the floor up, getting decent players and turning them into winners.

Collins is not capable of doing that, so we are stuck until he is gone.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

We already have “dummied down” courses and majors for athletes. I took a few whenever I needed to boost my GPA. You are kidding yourself if you do not believe this to be the case. Athletes who want a challenge take challenging courses. And then there’s everyone else.


This seems righteous on the surface — except no one is asking them to take such classes. See above.



What makes a student deserving? Do you also believe that NU shouldn’t strive for diversity by favoring a student who has slightly lesser grades than another student bc of their ethnic or socioeconomic background? Does a student who DIRECTLY generates tens of millions for the university while enrolled not provide something that a comm studies major doesn’t and thus become deserving?



I used to think the way you did. Then I realized no one cares outside of our little bubble of alums patting each other on the back. In the end it’s just us sitting high on our horse looking down on everyone else saying: "Look at us. We're so smart we don't even care about winning as long as our players are smarter than everyone else’s -- because sports don't matter in life, being smart does. We'll lose and still be fulfilled by our 'academic integrity,' honor and 401ks. And if we ever do beat you, we’ll make sure you dummies know you got beat by smarty pants who did it “the right way,” as opposed to you compromising plebs. (Not to mention Duke!) Not that we'll care or keep scores, though, because, you know, sports don't matter." These days that sort of elitist snobbery smacks of… privilege.

You wanna know what’s really unethical? Being the Miami Marlins of the B1G — taking the money without ever trying to carry our weight.

Either play to win or drop to DII already. That is… If we’re willing to leave the cash. And, more importantly, the chance to look down on everyone else.

This was a hell of a post. Miami Marlins of the BIG. I’m stealing that line

 

[Sec_112]

... I’d like to hear any example of academic excellence (throughout an entire university) and true, CONSISTENT (key word) athletic excellence in the major sports. Three coaches ago, Stanford basketball was an example. And??

I'm looking to the four or five of you who regularly mocked the idea that academics are an ongoing impediment. Let's hear the examples.

A few schools have had their spurts. Stanford under Montgomery. Vandy under Stallings. How are they doing now?

And don't bore me with any mid-majors. If you don't understand how mid-majors are different, you might as well waste your time comparing NU to Butler, Valpo or St. Peters.

There's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that tells you that the combination of academic excellence throughout the university and strong athletics can be quickly fixed and easily maintained.

 

[Hungry Jack]

The portal only hurts us when we have good players seeking to raise their profile at other schools.
Call it the Miller Kopp syndrome. It can involve delusion on the player's part. Normally our players are smart enough to not be delusional - if they came to NU it probably wasn't solely for basketball.

But, if you have a solid program, for a school with NU's reputation, the transfer portal will be a big positive. We will be able to pick and choose from grad students and quality players who know they're not going to play in the NBA - as long as their college transcripts indicate they are willing to work academically.

So yeah, until the program can win consistently, our best players are going to be a threat to leave, but only if they undervalue the NU diploma and overvalue their talents on the court.

I thought the Miller Kopp syndrome was missing open looks from corner....

 

[hoosboot]

I'm looking to the four or five of you who regularly mocked the idea that academics are an ongoing impediment. Let's hear the examples.

A few schools have had their spurts. Stanford under Montgomery. Vandy under Stallings. How are they doing now?

And don't bore me with any mid-majors. If you don't understand how mid-majors are different, you might as well waste your time comparing NU to Butler, Valpo or St. Peters.

There's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that tells you that the combination of academic excellence throughout the university and strong athletics can be quickly fixed and easily maintained.

Don't know if you're talking to me as I brought up the St. Peters coach in light of someone overcoming institutional challenges (not as a hiring suggestion), but if you are, I am sorry to bore you.

I don't know of many people mocking the idea of academics as AN ongoing impediment. I see some people taking issue with it being THE ongoing impediment.

You undercut your own point though by noting coaches who have achieved periods of success, which indicates that AN ongoing issue is hiring the right coaches.

And you miss the mark by searching for something that is "quickly fixed and easily maintained." I'd humbly suggest that quick and easy isn't a realistic option or goal. I mean, you're the guy who constantly talks about the massive challenge NU basketball is and now you want quick and easy? I suspect the solution is much more complicated and challenging than that.

Anyway, hopefully you can get back to being entertained.

 

[Sec_112]

Don't know if you're talking to me as I brought up the St. Peters coach in light of someone overcoming institutional challenges (not as a hiring suggestion), but if you are, I am sorry to bore you.

I don't know of many people mocking the idea of academics as AN ongoing impediment. I see some people taking issue with it being THE ongoing impediment.

You undercut your own point though by noting coaches who have achieved periods of success, which indicates that AN ongoing issue is hiring the right coaches.

And you miss the mark by searching for something that is "quickly fixed and easily maintained." I'd humbly suggest that quick and easy isn't a realistic option or goal. I mean, you're the guy who constantly talks about the massive challenge NU basketball is and now you want quick and easy? I suspect the solution is much more complicated and challenging than that.

Anyway, hopefully you can get back to being entertained.

It wasn't aimed at you, Hoos - well, unless you mocked the academics at several points throughout the year. I don't think you did.

I don't believe I undercut my point at all. It's two schools out of 350+. I'd love to hear all the other similar situations since people think this is an easy solution.

At those two schools, since 1980 two of the 12 combined coaches cracked the code. And both schools combined have played four tournament games in the last 10 years. I don't think that's the bar that anyone wants to set. Even NU has reached that level.

My personal favorite is all the guys who obviously ran as soon as they saw the slightest bit of success. Dr. Tom bolted Stanford for Iowa as soon as he reached a lofty 14-16 record.

Lastly, maybe I communicated poorly. I agree with you this is not solved quickly and easily at all. But I think several out here continue to blindly pretend this should be easily solved. The academics don't matter. The conference is similar to every other conference. The salary begs for the best, and the fan base is awesome. Any flavor-of-the-March can come in here and straighten it out.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

It wasn't aimed at you, Hoos - well, unless you mocked the academics at several points throughout the year. I don't think you did.

I don't believe I undercut my point at all. It's two schools out of 350+. I'd love to hear all the other similar situations since people think this is an easy solution.

At those two schools, since 1980 two of the 12 combined coaches cracked the code. And both schools combined have played four tournament games in the last 10 years. I don't think that's the bar that anyone wants to set. Even NU has reached that level.

My personal favorite is all the guys who obviously ran as soon as they saw the slightest bit of success. Dr. Tom bolted Stanford for Iowa as soon as he reached a lofty 14-16 record.

Lastly, maybe I communicated poorly. I agree with you this is not solved quickly and easily at all. But I think several out here continue to blindly pretend this should be easily solved. The academics don't matter. The conference is similar to every other conference. The salary begs for the best, and the fan base is awesome. Any flavor-of-the-March can come in here and straighten it out.

Anyone who think only changing the Head Coach “fixes” this is delusional.