Obamanomics in a nutshell

WVPATX

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The overall growth in the 23 quarters of the Obama recovery (which began in June 2009) has been 13.3%. That's less than half the average 26.7% growth rate achieved at this point in the previous 10 recoveries since World War II. Reagan averaged 4.9% annual growth in GDP after his recession ended and Obama has averaged well under 50% of Reagan's.

Looked at another way, had Obama's recovery been merely average, GDP would be $1.9 trillion bigger today. That translates into $16,000 per household. And keep in mind that the Fed provided unprecedented stimulus for Obama and we piled up enormous amounts of debt to achieve substandard growth.
 

moe

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Are all recessions the same? Keep beating that horse...
 

WVPATX

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Are all recessions the same? Keep beating that horse...

Keep making excuses. The fact is that the steeper the recession the more significant the bounce post recession. We are 6 years into this recovery. Time for excuses has expired.
 

DvlDog4WVU

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The fact is that the steeper the recession the more significant the bounce post recession. We are 6 years into this recovery. Time for excuses has expired.

Kind of hard to bounce back from a recession when your policies inhibit job creation, assault major industries, and create more reliance on Federal assistance.
 
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moe

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Keep making excuses. The fact is that the steeper the recession the more significant the bounce post recession. We are 6 years into this recovery. Time for excuses has expired.
Keep dodging questions...
 

WVPATX

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Kind of hard to bounce back from a recession when your policies inhibit job creation, assault major industries, and create more reliance on Federal assistance.

This country was founded and grew on the principles of hard work, individual responsibility and entrepreneurship. We are fast becoming a dependency society. Good for the Dems, bad for the country and our future. And the regulatory state is absolutely out of control.
 

moe

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Kind of hard to bounce back from a recession when your policies inhibit job creation, assault major industries, and create more reliance on Federal assistance.
assault major industries what is this? If you're talking about coal/nat gas, would the surge of the nat gas industry be what it is without the decline of the coal industry? Is it a push?
 

WVPATX

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Keep dodging questions...

As I have posted many times, Reagan's recession was at least as bad as the 2008 recession with much higher interest rates, much higher inflation rates and higher unemployment. Even Krugman admits that Obama's economic recovery is pathetic.
 

WVPATX

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What regulations would you like repealed/rolled back?

I would do a cost/benefit analysis of all of Obama's regulations that have a big impact and repeal those that don't have a net positive economic impact. I would not let any agency perform its own cost benefit analysis. In addition, I would repeal Obamacare and replace it with medical cost lowering programs.
 

WVPATX

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What regulations would you like repealed/rolled back?

Dodd Frank is killing jobs and job creation. Obamacare is destroying jobs. The EPA is destroying jobs. Look at the cost of electricity in California, for example. How can a new business compete? Look at the regulatory impact on small business. Even a leftie, Jim Cramer, is calling for a repeal of job killing regulations for small businesses. As importantly, we need tax reform to lower the costs for businesses so they can start to hire again.

We have learned under Obama that higher taxes and higher regulations do not create a vibrant economy.
 

moe

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I would do a cost/benefit analysis of all of Obama's regulations that have a big impact and repeal those that don't have a net positive economic impact. I would not let any agency perform its own cost benefit analysis. In addition, I would repeal Obamacare and replace it with medical cost lowering programs.
So you'd repeal regulations that protected human health and/or the environment if it cost anything to implement them? So you're all about the money, that's it. Good to know.
 

WVPATX

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So you'd repeal regulations that protected human health and/or the environment if it cost anything to implement them? So you're all about the money, that's it. Good to know.

There is a benefit for human health that can be quantified. But it must be based on actual science and not speculation.
 

DvlDog4WVU

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Feb 2, 2008
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So you'd repeal regulations that protected human health and/or the environment if it cost anything to implement them? So you're all about the money, that's it. Good to know.

You understand that the more reliance we have on the government, the higher the tax burden becomes on the individuals and business. Bigger Gov't is basically a giant fvcking boat anchor to the entire system. It ends up growing and requiring more to sustain which kills job creation and growth, which decreases the tax base to draw from, then you either go deeper in debt, or the whole system starts shutting down. You don't have to be the amazing Kreskin to see this not working.

Do you just disagree, not care, or not understand? I don't think it could be the first one because it's hard to argue with results.

assault major industries what is this? If you're talking about coal/nat gas, would the surge of the nat gas industry be what it is without the decline of the coal industry? Is it a push?
The surge in the Natural Gas industry and fracking began in the early 2000s.
 

WVPATX

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The surge in the Natural Gas industry and fracking began in the early 2000s.

More importantly, permitting and production on public land is down significanly. The surge is on private land which Obama can't control even though he tries to take credit.
 

moe

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You understand that the more reliance we have on the government, the higher the tax burden becomes on the individuals and business. Bigger Gov't is basically a giant fvcking boat anchor to the entire system. It ends up growing and requiring more to sustain which kills job creation and growth, which decreases the tax base to draw from, then you either go deeper in debt, or the whole system starts shutting down. You don't have to be the amazing Kreskin to see this not working.
Do you just disagree, not care, or not understand? I don't think it could be the first one because it's hard to argue with results.

The surge in the Natural Gas industry and fracking began in the early 2000s.
That's nice to know, thanks a lot.
Your response does not address the question that I asked but that's fine. Also, what major industries have been attacked?You and WVPATX like to speak in very vague, general terms that seem to make you all happy but don't address anything specifically. Saying that "Big Government (as you all like to say) is bad" is not a terrribly intellectual thing to say. You all say "too many regulations" which is another great slogan but which regulations do you want to get rid of or modify? For example, you do understand that the government can create regulations that industry must follow so that it doesn't poison everyone in their quest for profits? right?
 

WVPATX

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That's nice to know, thanks a lot.
Your response does not address the question that I asked but that's fine. Also, what major industries have been attacked?You and WVPATX like to speak in very vague, general terms that seem to make you all happy but don't address anything specifically. Saying that "Big Government (as you all like to say) is bad" is not a terrribly intellectual thing to say. You all say "too many regulations" which is another great slogan but which regulations do you want to get rid of or modify? For example, you do understand that the government can create regulations that industry must follow so that it doesn't poison everyone in their quest for profits? right?

I posted many examples. Obamacare is a huge anchor. The EPA is a huge anchor and is not founded in science but ideology. Dodd Frank is a disaster. They raise costs for businesses. More importantly businesses don't know what's coming next. Their taxes are going up as well. Agency power needs to be reined in. Congress needs to regain control over this morass. The Agencies never answer to the people. They weren't elected yet they have enormous power.

Major regulations should be subjected to a thorough , independent cost/benefit analysis. Get rid of the regs that don't benefit society on a net basis.
 

DvlDog4WVU

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Feb 2, 2008
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That's nice to know, thanks a lot.
Your response does not address the question that I asked but that's fine. Also, what major industries have been attacked?You and WVPATX like to speak in very vague, general terms that seem to make you all happy but don't address anything specifically. Saying that "Big Government (as you all like to say) is bad" is not a terrribly intellectual thing to say. You all say "too many regulations" which is another great slogan but which regulations do you want to get rid of or modify? For example, you do understand that the government can create regulations that industry must follow so that it doesn't poison everyone in their quest for profits? right?
Currently, the acceptable selenium levels as laid out by the EPA required for the coal industry are below levels that are required for drinking water. However, the extra cost associated with trying to stay within those guidelines require scrubbers at costs exceeding $10 million per mine. The levels of selenium without the scrubbers would also fall below acceptable levels for drinking water but the EPA went farther than needed. Seems like a blatant attack on an industry which has real consequences to a work force.

With the new hike in minimum wage in CA, they are going to see less job creation, higher costs of doing business, and impacts to small business where profit margins fall into the red and they are either forced to shut down or unable to be started.
 

moe

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May 29, 2001
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I posted many examples. Obamacare is a huge anchor. The EPA is a huge anchor and is not founded in science but ideology. Dodd Frank is a disaster. They raise costs for businesses. More importantly businesses don't know what's coming next. Their taxes are going up as well. Agency power needs to be reined in. Congress needs to regain control over this morass. The Agencies never answer to the people. They weren't elected yet they have enormous power.

Major regulations should be subjected to a thorough , independent cost/benefit analysis. Get rid of the regs that don't benefit society on a net basis.
The EPA is a huge anchor and is not founded in science but ideology. Just to pick out on part of your response. By stating that, you show that you know very little about enviromental matters. You may have complaints about specific policies but to make a blanket statement like that shows you don't understand environmental science.
 

moe

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May 29, 2001
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Currently, the acceptable selenium levels as laid out by the EPA required for the coal industry are below levels that are required for drinking water. However, the extra cost associated with trying to stay within those guidelines require scrubbers at costs exceeding $10 million per mine. The levels of selenium without the scrubbers would also fall below acceptable levels for drinking water but the EPA went farther than needed. Seems like a blatant attack on an industry which has real consequences to a work force.

With the new hike in minimum wage in CA, they are going to see less job creation, higher costs of doing business, and impacts to small business where profit margins fall into the red and they are either forced to shut down or unable to be started.
I won't differ with some terminology you use but I agree with you on Selenium in water limits. The current limits are science based but overly conservative and 10 times lower than drinking water standards. Currently the WVDEP is in the middle of a field study which should show that the current Selenium in water regulatory limits have been set too low. Talk to the local folks about any minimum wage hikes in California, that's not the Fed and I believe that it's local to certain CA counties. That experiment may fail on its own.
 

WVPATX

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The EPA is a huge anchor and is not founded in science but ideology. Just to pick out on part of your response. By stating that, you show that you know very little about enviromental matters. You may have complaints about specific policies but to make a blanket statement like that shows you don't understand environmental science.

Have you even seen the EPA testify before Congress? They required the coal industry to use technology that does not yet exist for goodness sake. And if you think the EPA is non ideological, you are not paying attention. Why would you oppose a cost/benefit analysis? Libs tend to support ever heavy regulations and for the life of me, I don't understand why.
 

WVPATX

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Jan 27, 2005
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I won't differ with some terminology you use but I agree with you on Selenium in water limits. The current limits are science based but overly conservative and 10 times lower than drinking water standards. Currently the WVDEP is in the middle of a field study which should show that the current Selenium in water regulatory limits have been set too low. Talk to the local folks about any minimum wage hikes in California, that's not the Fed and I believe that it's local to certain CA counties. That experiment may fail on its own.

Obama and the Dems cleearly want to raise the national minimum wage levels even though OMB estimated that it will result in job losses. Obama was quoted as wanting to increase the taxes on capital gains even though studies have shown that it actully costs the treasury money. He cited fairness. Ugh.
 

moe

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I have no problem with challenging industries to come up with solutions to problems. If you don't challenge people to solve problems, they'll just keep doing what they've been doing. When the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts were drafted, there was no consideration for how much solutions would cost.
 

WVPATX

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But one example of the EPA overreach from Forbes Magazine:

The EPA's Mercury Rule Will Cost The Economy At Least $16 Billion Per Year

Guest post written byBrian H. Potts
Mr. Potts is a partner at the international law firm Foley & Lardner LLP.
The Environmental Protection Agency says its new Mercury and Air Toxics Standard—the legality of which is before the U.S. Supreme Court this term—will produce $24 to $80 billion in net economic benefits to U.S. citizens by improving their health. To put these figures in perspective, the profits of the five largest American health insurance companies were a combined $12.7 billion in 2014. In other words, the EPA says the power of its regulatory pen is roughly two to six times more productive than the Big Five health insurers combined.
The legal question before the court actually has nothing to do with the details of the EPA’s benefit analysis; it’s purely a question of statutory interpretation. Nonetheless, during oral arguments on March 25, Chief Justice John Roberts lambasted the EPA for inflating the rule’s estimated net benefits. At one point, Justice Roberts even called the EPA’s public health benefits “illegitimate.”
I’m a lawyer, not a doctor, so I won’t question the medical veracity of the EPA’s numbers (as an aside, a Harvard toxicologist testified to Congress that the EPA’s methodology for calculating the health benefits was “highly imprecise”). But I can tell you that, in a number of important ways, the Chief Justice is correct: The EPA has doctored its benefit figures.
EPA’s mercury rule will be the most expensive ever
EPA’s mercury rule requires approximately 600 U.S. power plants to emit about 75% less mercury and other toxic pollutants starting in 2016. The EPA acknowledges that its mercury rule will be its most expensive rule ever—approximately $9.6 billion dollars per year.
But, according to the agency, these costs are swallowed by the rule’s enormous public health benefits, which fall into two categories. The first, and most obvious, are the direct health benefits of reducing mercury and other toxic air pollutants (which is, of course, the rule’s focus). EPA says these amount to at most $6 million per year.

Clearly, these benefits pale in comparison to the rule’s billions of dollars in costs. So how does the EPA justify its claim that the rule will nonetheless provide enormous net economic benefits? The answer is that the EPA included a number of “co-benefits”in its calculations—namely, the health benefits associated with reducing other ancillary pollutants, such as CO2 and particulate matter.
“Social welfare”benefits?
You see, when fully implemented, the rule will force a lot of existing coal-fired power plants to shut down because they can’t afford to comply. That will reduce CO2 emissions nationwide, and the EPA estimates that this will produce $360 million per year in “social welfare”benefits. Similarly, when power plants install technology to remove mercury from the emission stream, that technology also removes another pollutant, particulate matter, which, when inhaled, can have negative impacts on public health. According to the EPA, reducing particulate matter emissions will produce another $33 to $90 billion in annual public health benefits.
These particulate matter benefits, however, are enormously overstated. The EPA adopted its mercury rule under a provision of the Clean Air Act that’s aimed at regulating “hazardous air pollutants,”the definition of which doesn’t include particulate matter. Instead, particulate matter is regulated under another portion of the Act, which requires the EPA to set an air quality standard for particulate matter that’s protective of public health. This is important because more than 90% of the mercury rule’s health-related “co-benefits”occur at air quality levels that the EPA has already determined are protective of public health under this other section of the Act.
What’s more, when the EPA calculated the rule’s cost, it only looked at the cost to the electric sector. The agency did not even attempt to estimate any of the rule’s “co-costs,”such as lost manufacturing jobs due to higher electric rates.
Re-computing the rule’s actual costs and benefits
With these facts in mind, let’s re-compute the rule’s actual costs and benefits.
Comparing the rule’s direct costs to its direct benefits is easy. According to the EPA’s own numbers, the rule will cost the electric sector about $9.6 billion per year and will produce $6 million per year in mercury-related health benefits. That’s a cost/benefit ratio of 1600:1.
Including the rule’s co-benefits and co-costs requires a little math. Since at least 90% of the agency’s estimated particulate matter health benefits are, in Justice Roberts’own words, “illegitimate,”that leaves $3.3 to 9 billion in particulate matter health benefits leftover. Assuming EPA’s CO2 and other benefit calculations are correct (about $366 million per year), the rule’s total health benefits would be reduced to roughly $3.7 to 9.4 billion per year.
On the cost side of the ledger, the EPA acknowledges that the rule will cost the electric sector approximately $9.6 billion per year. In addition, according to a study by NERA Economic Consulting, the rule’s ancillary costs to the economy will be an additional $16 billion per year. That adds up to a total annual cost of about $25.6 billion compared to a total annual benefit of $3.7 to $9.4 billion. In other words, EPA’s mercury rule will—at best—produce costs that are three to seven times greater than its benefits.
 

DvlDog4WVU

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2008
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I won't differ with some terminology you use but I agree with you on Selenium in water limits. The current limits are science based but overly conservative and 10 times lower than drinking water standards. Currently the WVDEP is in the middle of a field study which should show that the current Selenium in water regulatory limits have been set too low. Talk to the local folks about any minimum wage hikes in California, that's not the Fed and I believe that it's local to certain CA counties. That experiment may fail on its own.
Right, but in the meantime, real losses in jobs are occurring (decreasing tax base, increasing reliance on Federal assistance). Real profit margins are decreasing (tax base). This is just one example. Sure, in the ambiguous world of we need to do better for the environment this is fine. In the real world, this is impacting people and families ability to provide for themselves. This halfassed rollout without concern to the impacts is a problem I have with Gov't that are not unique to party but indicative of the greater problem. What is unique to the DNC is their belief in expanding Gov't, a dysfunctional clusterfuck of bureaucracy that eats money and produces very little.
 

moe

Active member
May 29, 2001
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Right, but in the meantime, real losses in jobs are occurring (decreasing tax base, increasing reliance on Federal assistance). Real profit margins are decreasing (tax base). This is just one example. Sure, in the ambiguous world of we need to do better for the environment this is fine. In the real world, this is impacting people and families ability to provide for themselves. This halfassed rollout without concern to the impacts is a problem I have with Gov't that are not unique to party but indicative of the greater problem. What is unique to the DNC is their belief in expanding Gov't, a dysfunctional cluster**** of bureaucracy that eats money and produces very little.
The low price of natural gas has played a large role in coal's downfall. You speak from a coal perspective. Folks in the nat gas industry are thrilled. Coal's loss has been nat gas's gain.
 

WVPATX

Member
Jan 27, 2005
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The low price of natural gas has played a large role in coal's downfall. You speak from a coal perspective. Folks in the nat gas industry are thrilled. Coal's loss has been nat gas's gain.

The Obama administration's war on coal has been by far the biggest reason for the collapse of coal. The market forces driving natural gas have also heard cosl but not nearly as much.
 

moe

Active member
May 29, 2001
32,444
131
63
But one example of the EPA overreach from Forbes Magazine:

The EPA's Mercury Rule Will Cost The Economy At Least $16 Billion Per Year

Guest post written byBrian H. Potts
Mr. Potts is a partner at the international law firm Foley & Lardner LLP.
The Environmental Protection Agency says its new Mercury and Air Toxics Standard—the legality of which is before the U.S. Supreme Court this term—will produce $24 to $80 billion in net economic benefits to U.S. citizens by improving their health. To put these figures in perspective, the profits of the five largest American health insurance companies were a combined $12.7 billion in 2014. In other words, the EPA says the power of its regulatory pen is roughly two to six times more productive than the Big Five health insurers combined.
The legal question before the court actually has nothing to do with the details of the EPA’s benefit analysis; it’s purely a question of statutory interpretation. Nonetheless, during oral arguments on March 25, Chief Justice John Roberts lambasted the EPA for inflating the rule’s estimated net benefits. At one point, Justice Roberts even called the EPA’s public health benefits “illegitimate.”
I’m a lawyer, not a doctor, so I won’t question the medical veracity of the EPA’s numbers (as an aside, a Harvard toxicologist testified to Congress that the EPA’s methodology for calculating the health benefits was “highly imprecise”). But I can tell you that, in a number of important ways, the Chief Justice is correct: The EPA has doctored its benefit figures.
EPA’s mercury rule will be the most expensive ever
EPA’s mercury rule requires approximately 600 U.S. power plants to emit about 75% less mercury and other toxic pollutants starting in 2016. The EPA acknowledges that its mercury rule will be its most expensive rule ever—approximately $9.6 billion dollars per year.
But, according to the agency, these costs are swallowed by the rule’s enormous public health benefits, which fall into two categories. The first, and most obvious, are the direct health benefits of reducing mercury and other toxic air pollutants (which is, of course, the rule’s focus). EPA says these amount to at most $6 million per year.

Clearly, these benefits pale in comparison to the rule’s billions of dollars in costs. So how does the EPA justify its claim that the rule will nonetheless provide enormous net economic benefits? The answer is that the EPA included a number of “co-benefits”in its calculations—namely, the health benefits associated with reducing other ancillary pollutants, such as CO2 and particulate matter.
“Social welfare”benefits?
You see, when fully implemented, the rule will force a lot of existing coal-fired power plants to shut down because they can’t afford to comply. That will reduce CO2 emissions nationwide, and the EPA estimates that this will produce $360 million per year in “social welfare”benefits. Similarly, when power plants install technology to remove mercury from the emission stream, that technology also removes another pollutant, particulate matter, which, when inhaled, can have negative impacts on public health. According to the EPA, reducing particulate matter emissions will produce another $33 to $90 billion in annual public health benefits.
These particulate matter benefits, however, are enormously overstated. The EPA adopted its mercury rule under a provision of the Clean Air Act that’s aimed at regulating “hazardous air pollutants,”the definition of which doesn’t include particulate matter. Instead, particulate matter is regulated under another portion of the Act, which requires the EPA to set an air quality standard for particulate matter that’s protective of public health. This is important because more than 90% of the mercury rule’s health-related “co-benefits”occur at air quality levels that the EPA has already determined are protective of public health under this other section of the Act.
What’s more, when the EPA calculated the rule’s cost, it only looked at the cost to the electric sector. The agency did not even attempt to estimate any of the rule’s “co-costs,”such as lost manufacturing jobs due to higher electric rates.
Re-computing the rule’s actual costs and benefits
With these facts in mind, let’s re-compute the rule’s actual costs and benefits.
Comparing the rule’s direct costs to its direct benefits is easy. According to the EPA’s own numbers, the rule will cost the electric sector about $9.6 billion per year and will produce $6 million per year in mercury-related health benefits. That’s a cost/benefit ratio of 1600:1.
Including the rule’s co-benefits and co-costs requires a little math. Since at least 90% of the agency’s estimated particulate matter health benefits are, in Justice Roberts’own words, “illegitimate,”that leaves $3.3 to 9 billion in particulate matter health benefits leftover. Assuming EPA’s CO2 and other benefit calculations are correct (about $366 million per year), the rule’s total health benefits would be reduced to roughly $3.7 to 9.4 billion per year.
On the cost side of the ledger, the EPA acknowledges that the rule will cost the electric sector approximately $9.6 billion per year. In addition, according to a study by NERA Economic Consulting, the rule’s ancillary costs to the economy will be an additional $16 billion per year. That adds up to a total annual cost of about $25.6 billion compared to a total annual benefit of $3.7 to $9.4 billion. In other words, EPA’s mercury rule will—at best—produce costs that are three to seven times greater than its benefits.
The SCOTUS will rule then.
 

moe

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May 29, 2001
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The Obama administration's war on coal has been by far the biggest reason for the collapse of coal. The market forces driving natural gas have also heard cosl but not nearly as much.
Your opinion is duly noted.
 

dave

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May 29, 2001
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The low price of natural gas has played a large role in coal's downfall. You speak from a coal perspective. Folks in the nat gas industry are thrilled. Coal's loss has been nat gas's gain.
This is false.
 

TarHeelEer

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Also, what major industries have been attacked? For example, you do understand that the government can create regulations that industry must follow so that it doesn't poison everyone in their quest for profits? right?

Let's start with net neutrality which supposedly solves a problem that doesn't exist and causes a huge burden on small businesses, essentially putting them out of business.
 

dave

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May 29, 2001
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lol Do you ever tire of being wrong? Wake up and go back to sleep.
Wrong? The biggest problem for coal is the low price of coal compared to the heavy cost of regulation/extraction. The low price of gas is a big problem for gas producers, and that is why most operators are keeping the gas they have drilled in the ground for now.

Sorry if facts hurt.
 

moe

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May 29, 2001
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Wrong? The biggest problem for coal is the low price of coal compared to the heavy cost of regulation/extraction. The low price of gas is a big problem for gas producers, and that is why most operators are keeping the gas they have drilled in the ground for now.

Sorry if facts hurt.
So you're saying that it costs money to mine coal? Nice. Obviously not enough gas producers are keeping their gas in the ground or we wouldn't have the oversupply that's keeping nat gas costs low. Apparently it's cheaper for many electric utilities to switch from coal to nat gas due to a variety of factors with the cost of nat gas being one of them. Are they still putting up Clean Coal billboards?
 

moe

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Let's start with net neutrality which supposedly solves a problem that doesn't exist and causes a huge burden on small businesses, essentially putting them out of business.
The cost of internet service is putting companies out of business?
 

dave

Well-known member
May 29, 2001
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So you're saying that it costs money to mine coal? Nice. Obviously not enough gas producers are keeping their gas in the ground or we wouldn't have the oversupply that's keeping nat gas costs low. Apparently it's cheaper for many electric utilities to switch from coal to nat gas due to a variety of factors with the cost of nat gas being one of them. Are they still putting up Clean Coal billboards?
Gas prices are low because of a lack of demand. Coal prices are so low that it isnt profitable to mine due to regulations. Glad i can one again set you straight.
 

moe

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Gas prices are low because of a lack of demand. Coal prices are so low that it isnt profitable to mine due to regulations. Glad i can one again set you straight.

https://www.americanprogress.org/is...rces-are-challenging-appalachian-coal-mining/