Old Format Playoffs

[RedPrideNation_RollPride]

Anyone else miss the cross over at the State semis? I wont say it was the best system but the East/West split did seem to have some better matchups. It would be amazing if this came back in the next rotation. I know it was expensive for travel but the games were so much better and for some it eliminated regular season rematches which are sometimes rather dull when compared to facing an unknow opponent. If the playoffs were set up like that and the season ended right now here are the matchups in an East/West Split taking 16 on each side:

East
#1 Riverheads 23.33 vs #16 Cumberland 10.44
#2 K&Q 20.00 vs #15 Rapp Co 11.33
#3 Sussex 19.83 vs #14 Surry 11.83
#4 Essex 19.67 vs #13 Franklin 13.00
#5 W&L 19.17 vs #12 Altavista 14.83
#6 Rapp 18.17 vs #11 Central Lunenburg 15.00
#7 West Point 16.57 vs #10 Colonial Beach 15.00
#8 Wm Campbell 16.29 vs #9 Northumberland 15.33

West
#1 Narrows 21.67 vs #16 Covington 14.00
#2 GW 21.50 vs #15 Twin Springs 14.14
#3 Patrick Henry GS 21.43 vs #14 Honaker 14.67
#4 Galax 20.67 vs #13 Rural Retreat 14.83
#5 Thomas Walker 19.67 vs #12 Holston 15.00
#6 Chilhowie 19.00 vs #11 Grundy 15.83
#7 JI Burton 17.33 vs #10 Auburn 16.00
#8 Hurley 17.33 vs #9 Castlewood 17.33

I know there are many that do not like this setup for other sports and honestly we should be able to separate the sports out that don't function well under this format. A different playoff structure is not out of the question for things like Volleyball or Basketball but Football should definitely consider going back to this. Now wouldn't this be an interesting playoff bracket on each side of the state if we could convince the powers that be to go back to this type of setup. What do you guys think?

 

[RobberBrown]

Not to be disrespectful but I dont think D would not fair too well in most years. I could see Auburn or Covington beating any of the higher ranked region D teams with these current standings. Maybe an equal match-up if they played Chilhowie or PH-GS.

 

[RedPrideNation_RollPride]

Fair enough, just thought it was interesting to see the breakdown of matchups using the old playoff formula.

 

[TIGER...NATION]

The old format was the best in my humble opinion. Take the best 12 or 16 and play ball!

 

[Essex Trojan1]

@RedPrideNation_RollPride I agree. It was more exciting. I personally got to see some teams that I KNOW I wouldn’t have if not for the old format.

 

[RedPrideNation_RollPride]

I am not going out on a limb in saying that I believe that there were schools that just flat balked because of the travel costs. It is prohibitive for sure but I have to believe that the gates were better for the host teams. To me it really was about getting a first and second round game at a minimum to grow your support money. I haven't seen all of the 1A schools play recently but most travel at least moderately well even when a big underdog. I really liked playing the different teams that you would otherwise only know from reading about on here. Maybe one day we can get the VHSL to put perfect system in place, lol.

 

[TIGER...NATION]

LOL. Good luck with VHSL making the right choice

 

[Optimal62]

The only down fall to the cross brackets, is not every kids parents can afford to spend the money it would take for gas, food and lodging to drive across the state. Plus some would have to take a couple days off work.

I agree it would be cool to play different schools and experience their venues and atmosphere. There is good and bad to both systems.

 

[TIGER...NATION]

The only down fall to the cross brackets, is not every kids parents can afford to spend the money it would take for gas, food and lodging to drive across the state. Plus some would have to take a couple days off work.

I agree it would be cool to play different schools and experience their venues and atmosphere. There is good and bad to both systems.

Even with a East and West format?? Asking because Sussex, Franklin, and Surry is in Region B now..and all those things are factors now. So either way people will have to travel. Is that part of the good/bad of both systems? Just asking not trying to belittle your post or take a way from your thoughts...

 

[longtimerhsfan]

The best argument for the cross-bracketing is that it "should" at least in theory give you the two best teams playing for the state title. Take for example two years ago, when Riverheads traveled to play Essex in the semis. It was a 17-14 nailbiter. The next week the Gladiators rolled over Chilhowie. You could therefore argue that Essex was really the "second best" team in the state based on those results, so cross-bracketing would have allowed them the chance to advance to the finals and that nailbiter might have been played on a bigger stage with more at stake.

 

[Optimal62]

Even with a East and West format?? Asking because Sussex, Franklin, and Surry is in Region B now..and all those things are factors now. So either way people will have to travel. Is that part of the good/bad of both systems? Just asking not trying to belittle your post or take a way from your thoughts...

Maybe I should of been more clear - I was speaking to the semi final games. A Essex to Grundy trip is almost 7 hours.

 

[Triple Opt]

The best argument for the cross-bracketing is that it "should" at least in theory give you the two best teams playing for the state title. Take for example two years ago, when Riverheads traveled to play Essex in the semis. It was a 17-14 nailbiter. The next week the Gladiators rolled over Chilhowie. You could therefore argue that Essex was really the "second best" team in the state based on those results, so cross-bracketing would have allowed them the chance to advance to the finals and that nailbiter might have been played on a bigger stage with more at stake.

I would agree in that situation you are 100% correct. Although that will not always be the case, cross bracketing will not gaurantee that outcome every year.

 

[RedPrideNation_RollPride]

@Optimal62, not to be insensitive to the points you make because I agree, but it is the football playoffs. I had a big long diatribe until you clarified. I do recall a team from the eastern shore travelling to Stuarts Draft to play softball a several years ago and they had a 7 or 8 hour ride, whew. A friend was the SD coach and said their coach and players were really excited to see the mountains since some of them had never seen them in person. So the experience is definitely worth the headache sometimes.

@Triple Opt, as for the two best teams getting there, I would argue that it does in fact give the highest probability to see that. Exceptions like the 2015 Galax team exist but are far more rare.

 

[Triple Opt]

@Optimal62, not to be insensitive to the points you make because I agree, but it is the football playoffs. I had a big long diatribe until you clarified. I do recall a team from the eastern shore travelling to Stuarts Draft to play softball a several years ago and they had a 7 or 8 hour ride, whew. A friend was the SD coach and said their coach and players were really excited to see the mountains since some of them had never seen them in person. So the experience is definitely worth the headache sometimes.

@Triple Opt, as for the two best teams getting there, I would argue that it does in fact give the highest probability to see that. Exceptions like the 2015 Galax team exist but are far more rare.

Tell me more as why you feel this way. Not arguing just curious.

 

[TIGER...NATION]

Maybe I should of been more clear - I was speaking to the semi final games. A Essex to Grundy trip is almost 7 hours.

Ohh that makes sense. That's why I don't understand how Riverheads is in Region B or the East(other format). Well I guess I do understand as far as the map of Virginia goes..but if a team like Franklin or Sussex advance that will be a tough hike lol. Even in a semi final..Essex, W&L, or Rapp would have a long trip. Just my thoughts..

 

[RedPrideNation_RollPride]

@Triple Opt, I think mathematically it just works out that if you are one of the two best teams, the highest probability of getting to the championship game rests with a crossover game in the semis. It puts an emphasis on securing home field throughout the playoffs by scheduling to get the points required. It would allow at least the possibility that more than one team from a region or side of the state is deserving of the opportunity to play in Salem. It is certainly not always the case but it has felt that way in recent years. If I look at 2016 as the last crossover, look at the GW team that lost 8-6 to a very good Sussex team. They had to travel as the 2nd best West team left while eventual champion Riverheads travelled to Galax. Riverheads won at Galax to secure the title game which they won handily. Had we been in the current system that game would have occurred in the semi's. Do not look at the outcome but to myself and most that watch closely, it truly was the two best teams in 2016 proven on the field. Transient scores aside, Galax as the 1 seed in the west was not better than Sussex so if we were in the current system it would not even given Sussex the opportunity to play in Salem. I feel like I am starting to talk in circles so I will quit while still somewhat sane, lol.

 

[Daddy_rabbit]

This conversation seems to come up every year. Never seems to end well. We are not ever gonna agree on this. A lot of people assume that one teams better than another based on common opponents but this is football anything can happen any given week. I’ve heard a lot say “best two teams were out east”. Maybe, and maybe not we’ll never know. How can you say Sussex was better than galax? Be cause of the scores when the two played riverheads? Looks to me like Sussex beat GW by two in a close game. Galax beat GW by 4 scores. See what I’m getting at? Easy to say “really Essex should have been second place “, but we can’t say for sure that Chilhowie wouldn’t have pulled one out. Where would the game been played? Things like that can be factored in. Especially when Essex is banned from hosting from what I understand. I don’t think anyone east or west has much for riverheads again this year. But you never know huh? That’s why they play the game

 

[RedPrideNation_RollPride]

My opinion and those I talk to on a regular basis are that Sussex was a better team than Galax in 2016. If they would have played it could have certainly been a win for the Maroon Tide but I only go off of what my eyes seen in the two weeks we played them. As you say, that’s why they play the games.

 

[Daddy_rabbit]

I understand we all are entitled to our opinion. I truly don’t care how the brackets go whether they cross or they don’t. I do agree with some things that are brought up on here about teams that are 1-9 and make the playoffs. Cause it seems to me that usually the top two in each division ultimately represent that division. I wouldn’t wanna be a 16 team having to travel to play any of the top seeds. Seems like a waste of time and gas money to me.

 

[RedPrideNation_RollPride]

In general I agree but in 3A Waynesboro beat a #1 seed a few years back. So it is possible even if it isn’t probable.

 

[TimWakefield]

Let's be clear: the 16 teams from each side of the state was better for Class 1 than the region system. The region system might work better for Class 2-6, but Class 1 has produced very repetitive results moving back to regions. If 16 traveling to 1 is such a problem, then do 12 and let the top 4 teams have the bye week. I would rather have all 16 because UMBC beating UVA can happen and I would argue the separation between 1 and 16 is greater in NCAA basketball than it is in Class 1 football.

While many of the positives listed above are true, there is one falsehood; win-less and 1-win teams would still make the playoffs. 0-10 Stonewall Jackson still would have made the playoffs last year as a #16 seed, Seeds 13-16 all were 2-8 or worse.

So there is no perfect system, but one where (last year) Riverheads faces the winner of #4 Rappahannock / #5 Essex in the 2nd round, rather than waiting for that kind of match-up till the State Semis (4th rd), is better. The West (C&D) looks fine too with 3-7 East Mont getting left out in favor of 4-6 Hurley.

If you have to travel, you have to travel. If your team is good enough, the fans will come. If they aren't, then you likely won't need to worry about the travel the next week. Don't want to travel, win during the regular season so you can host. I just don't understand the travel complaint. Teams that have traveled across the state for a playoff game have won the state championship. Heck, happens all the time, like every year.

Maybe if we had this better system, Riverheads wouldn't have rolled through the playoffs like they have. Sure they look a mile better, but maybe the progressively tougher week to week playoff route could have caused them more problems. Maybe the 16 teams system could solve that "problem" too.

 

[RedPrideNation_RollPride]

@TimWakefield all good points most which I ageee with. However I do think it was better for class 2 as well. That system produced a 2012 run for Draft that was magical if not improbable. As an #11 seed iirc, they went to Dan River and won. Then the following week turned around and travelled to Big Stone Gap to take out Union. Lots of miles on vehicles those couple of weeks but lots of fun for their fans.

 

[Gunz41!]

@TimWakefield all good points most which I ageee with. However I do think it was better for class 2 as well. That system produced a 2012 run for Draft that was magical if not improbable. As an #11 seed iirc, they went to Dan River and won. Then the following week turned around and travelled to Big Stone Gap to take out Union. Lots of miles on vehicles those couple of weeks but lots of fun for their fans.

Draft was the 14 seed against 3 seed 9-1 Dan River and it wasn't close.

Next week they played #11 Union.

But you already know my feelings on this subject, I thought it was MUCH better with the 2 "sides"

 

[BigWinners]

Draft was the 14 seed against 3 seed 9-1 Dan River and it wasn't close.

Next week they played #11 Union.

But you already know my feelings on this subject, I thought it was MUCH better with the 2 "sides"

Ugh don't remind me lol. Draft knocked Union out two years in a row. The game at BSG was super close, could have went either way. Shame 2012 was last time they met. If both teams stay hot thru the end of the season, maybe we will meet again but this time in Salem! lol

I remember in 94 (maybe 95 but def one of the two) Powell Valley, in Big Stone Gap, traveled all the way to the peninsula for the state title game in Onley. It was a horrendous drive. I like the matchup with the old system but it makes much more sense logistically with new system.

I also disagree with the guys statement about Region D, I don't believe anyone would beat Galax but Patrick Henry, Chilhowie and Burton are all good teams. They would represent themselves very well. Chilhowie has played in the title game two years in a row. IIRC, Burton has never lost to either Covington (2-0) or Auburn (1-0) and all three were decided by more than a touchdown. Doesn't mean anything for this year or anything, only that Region D is competitive.

 

[Gunz41!]

Ugh don't remind me lol. Draft knocked Union out two years in a row. The game at BSG was super close, could have went either way. Shame 2012 was last time they met. If both teams stay hot thru the end of the season, maybe we will meet again but this time in Salem! lol

I remember in 94 (maybe 95 but def one of the two) Powell Valley, in Big Stone Gap, traveled all the way to the peninsula for the state title game in Onley. It was a horrendous drive. I like the matchup with the old system but it makes much more sense logistically with new system.

I also disagree with the guys statement about Region D, I don't believe anyone would beat Galax but Patrick Henry, Chilhowie and Burton are all good teams. They would represent themselves very well. Chilhowie has played in the title game two years in a row. IIRC, Burton has never lost to either Covington (2-0) or Auburn (1-0) and all three were decided by more than a touchdown. Doesn't mean anything for this year or anything, only that Region D is competitive.

Both were very good games, but because of distance and having the best seat in the house, I preferred the game at SD

 

[HighestPoint]

I was just thinking this the other day. I really liked the old format. I think the problem is that the vhsl is trying to be consistent with all 6 classes and the east west format didn't work as well for the guys driving the bus in 4-6a.
I think 4 regions is crazier in class 1 because 4 would lead you to believe regions were tighter but they're almost as spread out as 2 halves. Region b spans half of the state.
Travel in class 1 doesn't seem to be an issue in the regular season a bunch of region a schools play region b schools and c play d already. Would be cool to see 1 go back to that format. Very interesting matchups we got for a few years.

 

[Gunz41!]

I was just thinking this the other day. I really liked the old format. I think the problem is that the vhsl is trying to be consistent with all 6 classes and the east west format didn't work as well for the guys driving the bus in 4-6a.
I think 4 regions is crazier in class 1 because 4 would lead you to believe regions were tighter but they're almost as spread out as 2 halves. Region b spans half of the state.
Travel in class 1 doesn't seem to be an issue in the regular season a bunch of region a schools play region b schools and c play d already. Would be cool to see 1 go back to that format. Very interesting matchups we got for a few years.

I could agree with that about the VHSL, except each region gets to pick how they are going to get their champion. For example, the 8 teams in 4c are the top 4 from each district and Ratings have NO bearing unless there is a tie from what I read

 

[BigWinners]

Both were very good games, but because of distance and having the best seat in the house, I preferred the game at SD

Haha yeah I can see that, much easier to be at home.

 

[Gunz41!]

Haha yeah I can see that, much easier to be at home.

Easier at home, but being in press box makes it better haha

 

[BigWinners]

Easier at home, but being in press box makes it better haha

I never enjoyed being in the press box. When I've covered games and had to be in a press box, it's boring bc you can't cheer lol

 

[Gunz41!]

I never enjoyed being in the press box. When I've covered games and had to be in a press box, it's boring bc you can't cheer lol

We do, just not like some people do in the stands.