On a positive note

[Bulldogg31]

I suppose just the fact that I thought we might have a shot against a Top 20 team on the road means the program has improved over five years. That 95-49 loss to North Carolina was five years ago last month.

I have to remind myself just how far down the program was, and the fact that we still are a young team. No seniors on the roster and we're very dependent on inexperienced players. I believe we are the 5th youngest team out of 351 programs which is just crazy.

Tonight will give Howland a really good look at who we are. We held Cincy to 65 points, which is slightly above the 61 ppg we normally give up, telling me our defense is pretty solid.

If our PG doesn't chunk up 11 bricks and we get a decent game from one or two other shooters we would have had a chance in this game.

I think we'll get better from this one.

 

[messageboardsuperhero]

I don’t really understand the freaking out by some. We were 11 point underdogs and lost by 15- pretty much as expected. I had us losing 55-67, which was about what the final score ended up. Cincy is a very good defensive team and they pushed us around some. They would be a top 5 SEC team, and we were playing at their place (where they haven’t lost in 30+ games).

Obviously I wanted us to be more competitive, but we are a team that still has some deficiencies. Missing on Garrison Brooks, Davis, and Herard being bad are killing us this year. Plus Peters has been struggling when I thought he would bust out. We should win out in the rest of our non conference. If we finish .500 in SEC play, we should be knocking on the door to the NIT- which is what any reasonable person thought before the season.

I guess people are just now realizing that this team isn’t going to be a top 5 SEC team this year, when that should have been obvious all along- hence the meltdown.

 

[Bulldogg31]

I just think people are really really ready for us to be a very competitive team again and to win some of these big matchups. The punishment of the last five years has really taken a toll.

In my opinion it's squarely on Stricklin for pulling the plug on his head coach with no plan to keep the program going. The Rick Ray hire was devastating. He was clearly in over his head and we are still paying the price.

A few other things to keep in mind: this is the first full roster we've had in six years. That is unbelievable.

We've got a top 15 recruiting class already signed for next year. Our 2018 roster could be our most talented in over a decade.

We outrebounded one of the 10 best rebounding teams in the country tonight. We played very solid defense as well.

If (when) we get better play from our ballhandlers and shooters we will be a very solid team, which is a big improvement over the last five years.

I hope people will hang in there and give Howland time to get it rolling.

 

[She Mate Me]

The freak out factor over this loss in some of these threads is at 11. I'm with Aaron Rogers on this one, R E L A X. Things are headed in the right direction with the program. We have a lot of talent. The maturity will come and the cream will rise to the top.

 

[hailstate19]

we are tired of the "talent" half assing it. So many frustrating bone head plays

Its also been 9 freaking years since we have been to the NCAA tournament. It's been way too long. It's just really embarrassing, and the program seems like it's in a bad hole an they have struggled to get out of it, and they still haven't.

Worse damage then the football team under Croom IMO.

basketball was always my favorite sport here and is very disappointing times.

 

[She Mate Me]

I was born in the latter part of the 1960's and didn't see MSU in an NCAA tourney game until 1991. I guess maybe I understand the cycles these things typically go in better. The Williams and especially the Stansbury years were great and lasted quite a while. Very few programs can sustain excellence.

I used to get in pretty heated exchanges with Coach34 because I thought Stansbury was a very good coach and had done a great job at State (I still believe that, but he ran his course here). 34 felt the opposite and he really likes his opinions. He thought we could go out and get a better coach with no problem.

On 2/24/12 I finally had enough of a team that didn't give a **** and a coach that seemed not to anymore and I wrote this...

"And here are my thoughts:

- It is time for him to go.

- This team is talented, but for some reason simply does not have the "want to" necessary to be a contender nationally. I don't blame it all on the coach, but a large measure has to go to him.

- The fact that they don't have the "want to" is obvious to the fans and that is why we have all gradually lost interest in what happens to these teams. If they don't give a %%#! then why should we?

- Here is the hard part. I expect we will hire a solid young coach because we have a solid young AD. I expect that coach to work hard and not even approach the success level Stans has achieved. I expect this because I simply believe that MSU will never be a consistent winner in basketball. That is why I have been so impressed with what Stans has accomplished.

- That said, I hope like hell I am absolutely wrong."

I was only wrong about the kind of hire Striklin would make the first time. It was not a good one obviously. I think this one was a good hire and I will give him a lot of rope to get this team were they need to be. It may take a year or two more, but he will get us back to relevance. In the meantime, I'm not going to 11 on my freak out machine with every loss to a Top 25 team.

 

[Bulldogg31]

Good post and good prediction back in '12. I remember being fed up as well. That collection of players and coaches punched a big hole in our boat.

At that point Stricklin should have been working on Stansbury's replacement, much like Cohen saw the writing on the wall with Mullen. Instead, I think Stricklin was caught off guard when Stans called him on his ultimatum and walked.

I agree that Howland should be given as long as it takes. Look at South Carolina. Frank Martin took four years to get them back to relevancy and I'm not sure they were ever as far back in the pack as we've been.

The talent profile is improving, just need to hang in there.

 

[KurtRambis4]

Anybody wanting

to get rid of Howland, right now, is begging to 17 our program even harder.

 

[tcdog70]

Cincinnati has won 30 in a row at home. The Refs didn't do us any favors. Our PG went into a huge funk. With that considered we played about like I figured. Any big game we have in the future our PG has to play well and Q and Carter have to be shooting much better, or we lose. If Peters can't shake out of the funk the Baby Spoon will have to take over the point.

 

[dickiedawg]

Is there anyone calling for Howland’s removal?
Being frustrated is one thing. I’m frustrated and disappointed we aren’t farther along in 3 years. We have recruited at a high level but the product on the court doesn’t reflect that right now.
That is a far cry from wanting Howland fired. It’s not even in the realm of possibility at this point.

 

[MSUDC11]

Is there anyone calling for Howland’s removal?
Being frustrated is one thing. I’m frustrated and disappointed we aren’t farther along in 3 years. We have recruited at a high level but the product on the court doesn’t reflect that right now.
That is a far cry from wanting Howland fired. It’s not even in the realm of possibility at this point.

That’s exactly where I am with it. I’m pissed but Howland has to get a Year 4.

 

[maroonmania]

I don’t really understand the freaking out by some. We were 11 point underdogs and lost by 15- pretty much as expected. I had us losing 55-67, which was about what the final score ended up. Cincy is a very good defensive team and they pushed us around some. They would be a top 5 SEC team, and we were playing at their place (where they haven’t lost in 30+ games).

Obviously I wanted us to be more competitive, but we are a team that still has some deficiencies. Missing on Garrison Brooks, Davis, and Herard being bad are killing us this year. Plus Peters has been struggling when I thought he would bust out. We should win out in the rest of our non conference. If we finish .500 in SEC play, we should be knocking on the door to the NIT- which is what any reasonable person thought before the season.

I guess people are just now realizing that this team isn’t going to be a top 5 SEC team this year, when that should have been obvious all along- hence the meltdown.

Sort of amazing we stayed in the game as much as we did given the horrendous performance from Peters and a below average performance from Q. Defensively we did pretty well I just wish that we wouldn't seem to totally lose one man every defensive set where we allow a wide open 3.

 

[engie]

I agree. It's just tiresome. Of course it was my own fault for letting myself buy in prior to last night when nothing in the eye test told me I should have done so.

Next year is the time and is make or break in my opinion. There is a lot more talent coming. But nothing in the way of extra help at the 5 -- and nothing in the way of extra help at the 1. We need to be chasing BOTH of those in this very class right this minute IMO. The writing has been on the wall with Sleepy ever since last season. He's our only true point guard on roster.

A 500 conference record is an NIT lock this year IMO. Gonna see a couple teams go dancing 10-8ish in the SEC.

I'm not that upset about the end result last night. Cinci is an elite defensive team by all metrics. What I'm upset about is our lack of basketball IQ/improvement along the way in these players. Nick Spoon is legit and will get better. Tyson is getting better and better. Q is Q who is good. Holman is getting better. I think Ado will get better. Right now Wright, Peters, and all the other post players are basically playing with their heads cut off. I've seen little improvement or advancement in any of them from their arrival till now. That is a coaching problem. It's one we didn't give Stans(really his assistants) a pass for and it is one I'm starting to feel like holding Howland accountable for. Some of these assistants that are now with him on their 2nd/3rd stop seem far too comfortable for us to get in incredibly raw but supposedly top 100 talented players -- and then us not see a lick of development out of them for two years.

This also stays on my mind.

Tookie Brown - who was cut to make room for Malik while we actually kept Joe Strugg

SEASON	TEAM	MIN	FGM-FGA	FG%	3PM-3PA	3P%	FTM-FTA	FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
2017-18	GASO	31.9	5.5-10.2	.539	1.3-2.8	.464	4.9-6.4	.766	3.9	5.4	0.6	2.5	2.0	2.5	17.2
2016-17	GASO	34.0	5.4-13.2	.406	1.8-5.4	.345	4.5-5.8	.767	3.4	4.0	0.3	1.4	2.1	2.2	17.1
2015-16	GASO	30.8	5.7-13.2	.434	1.6-4.3	.373	4.7-5.8	.812	3.2	3.4	0.1	1.6	2.6	2.2	17.8

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</tbody>

D'Marcus Simonds - who opened it up when Ray was let go and we never re-recruited him at all

SEASON	TEAM	MIN	FGM-FGA	FG%	3PM-3PA	3P%	FTM-FTA	FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
2017-18	GAST	34.5	7.6-17.2	.442	1.3-4.6	.283	4.4-6.0	.733	5.3	4.8	0.7	1.8	2.2	4.2	20.9
2016-17	GAST	27.1	5.0-9.3	.535	0.6-1.6	.356	2.8-3.9	.719	4.0	2.0	0.3	1.2	2.0	2.7	13.4

<tbody style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background: transparent;">
</tbody>

Those are both guys that Rick Ray had -- that we cut -- that would help us right now. Tookie was obvious at the time although we went blind faith with Howland. Simonds far less so. Nevermind De'Ron Davis and Garrison Brooks.

 

[maroonmania]

I agree. It's just tiresome. Of course it was my own fault for letting myself buy in prior to last night when nothing in the eye test told me I should have done so.

Next year is the time and is make or break in my opinion. There is a lot more talent coming. But nothing in the way of extra help at the 5 -- and nothing in the way of extra help at the 1. We need to be chasing BOTH of those in this very class right this minute IMO. The writing has been on the wall with Sleepy ever since last season. He's our only true point guard on roster.

A 500 conference record is an NIT lock this year IMO. Gonna see a couple teams go dancing 10-8ish in the SEC.

I'm not that upset about the end result last night. Cinci is an elite defensive team by all metrics. What I'm upset about is our lack of basketball IQ/improvement along the way in these players. Nick Spoon is legit and will get better. Tyson is getting better and better. Q is Q who is good. Holman is getting better. I think Ado will get better. Right now Wright, Peters, and all the other post players are basically playing with their heads cut off. I've seen little improvement or advancement in any of them from their arrival till now. That is a coaching problem. It's one we didn't give Stans(really his assistants) a pass for and it is one I'm starting to feel like holding Howland accountable for. Some of these assistants that are now with him on their 2nd/3rd stop seem far too comfortable for us to get in incredibly raw but supposedly top 100 talented players -- and then us not see a lick of development out of them for two years.

This also stays on my mind.

Tookie Brown - who was cut to make room for Malik while we actually kept Joe Strugg

SEASON	TEAM	MIN	FGM-FGA	FG%	3PM-3PA	3P%	FTM-FTA	FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
2017-18	GASO	31.9	5.5-10.2	.539	1.3-2.8	.464	4.9-6.4	.766	3.9	5.4	0.6	2.5	2.0	2.5	17.2
2016-17	GASO	34.0	5.4-13.2	.406	1.8-5.4	.345	4.5-5.8	.767	3.4	4.0	0.3	1.4	2.1	2.2	17.1
2015-16	GASO	30.8	5.7-13.2	.434	1.6-4.3	.373	4.7-5.8	.812	3.2	3.4	0.1	1.6	2.6	2.2	17.8

<tbody>
</tbody>

D'Marcus Simonds - who opened it up when Ray was let go and we never re-recruited him at all

SEASON	TEAM	MIN	FGM-FGA	FG%	3PM-3PA	3P%	FTM-FTA	FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
2017-18	GAST	34.5	7.6-17.2	.442	1.3-4.6	.283	4.4-6.0	.733	5.3	4.8	0.7	1.8	2.2	4.2	20.9
2016-17	GAST	27.1	5.0-9.3	.535	0.6-1.6	.356	2.8-3.9	.719	4.0	2.0	0.3	1.2	2.0	2.7	13.4

<tbody>
</tbody>

Those are both guys that Rick Ray had -- that we cut -- that would help us right now. Tookie was obvious at the time although we went blind faith with Howland. Simonds far less so. Nevermind De'Ron Davis and Garrison Brooks.

I'm not sure what we've shown this year that would have people "buy in" that we could go knock off or even play very close to a Top 25 team on the road? I mean a 2 point win against JSU or maybe a 2 point win against a lackluster Dayton team at HOME? Heck, home court is usually worth 8 to 10 points in basketball. There was a reason we were an 11 point dog last night. The biggest frustration to me this year is the apparent regression with Peters and Herard. Those 2 look like they've never played college basketball in their life right now yet they were decent players for us last year.

 

[Wizard of bulldogery]

zero points from the bench. I mean if we could have just gotten 6 points that would have been nice. I didn't watch the game but geez the stat lines look pretty fricken bad was their Defense that good?

 

[engie]

Their adjusted defensive efficiency was #5 nationally coming in per KenPom. It's #4 now. That adjusts out SOS to give a true picture.

aTm is #3 and the only totally comparable defense we will see this year, but Kentucky is #12, USCe #17, Tn #19, Bama #23, Fla #26... Ahead of us @ #32.

For our youth(and lack of contributors we are likely to lose), our defense looks to be about where it needs to be right now. Pretty damn good.

Offense is #131. That's where our problem is. It was #135 last year, while defense was #71.

 

[DreadNought.sixpack]

Why is our PG given the opportunity to throw up 11 bricks? Bobby Knight would shut that down with the quickness

 

[engie]

Why is our PG given the opportunity to throw up 11 bricks? Bobby Knight would shut that down with the quickness

It was visibly sewing discord on our team last night too. Something has to change with Peters. Immediately.

 

[KurtRambis4]

Well to be

fair, Ben has benched him and drastically cut his minutes, to try and teach him, and has gotten no response.

 

[KurtRambis4]

There's been a number

of posters on here that have suggested if we don't get things done this year, it's time to go another direction.

 

[patdog]

He needs to show some improvement on the court this year for sure. As mediocre as we appear to be (last night went down about like I expected it would), we're probably not quite as bad as the last several years though.

 

[ShrubDog]

It was visibly sewing discord on our team last night too. Something has to change with Peters. Immediately.

It wasn’t a good look when Peters tweeted out “I am trash” after the game. Its a headcase now.

 

[Shmuley]

I would encourage him to "chill," but I don't think that's the advice he needs.

 

[KurtRambis4]

He needs to show some improvement on the court this year for sure

Well I think that is obvious to the most casual observer.

 

[Bulldogg31]

Three years ago we would have lost that game by 35 points or more.

 

[johnson86-1]

It wasn’t a good look when Peters tweeted out “I am trash” after the game. Its a headcase now.

It's not a good look, but not a terrible sign he's being hard on himself. I'd rather Howland be trying to pull himself out of a funk where he's in his own head and doubting himself than a funk where he's blaming it on everybody but himself.

 

[engie]

To go from that level of self-blaming -- to oversleeping for games -- or viceversa -- is something that needs to be looked at and controlled medically IMO. He can't seem to find the happy medium between looking like a lottery pick and being totally lost -- even though it's 100% mental and confidence related.

 

[philduckworth]

Sort of amazing we stayed in the game as much as we did given the horrendous performance from Peters and a below average performance from Q. Defensively we did pretty well I just wish that we wouldn't seem to totally lose one man every defensive set where we allow a wide open 3.

Biggest frustrations for me were getting beat back down the floor (call a TO and chew some as$), not making the extra pass, and just ridiculous careless passes.

 

[thf24]

I'm not sure what we've shown this year that would have people "buy in" that we could go knock off or even play very close to a Top 25 team on the road? I mean a 2 point win against JSU or maybe a 2 point win against a lackluster Dayton team at HOME? Heck, home court is usually worth 8 to 10 points in basketball. There was a reason we were an 11 point dog last night. The biggest frustration to me this year is the apparent regression with Peters and Herard. Those 2 look like they've never played college basketball in their life right now yet they were decent players for us last year.

Herard didn't regress. He was just as bad last year outside of the 4-5 game stretch between the times Howland started force feeding him to try to establish some semblance of a post presence and opponents realized they needed to keep a body between him and the basket. Those 4-5 games inflated his averages tremendously and he started to fade back again towards the end of the season.

Peters is just in his own head right now. I think the attention from the Adidas thing over the summer and subsequent talk of draft stock really messed him up.

 

[ShrubDog]

It's not a good look, but not a terrible sign he's being hard on himself. I'd rather Howland be trying to pull himself out of a funk where he's in his own head and doubting himself than a funk where he's blaming it on everybody but himself.

Its not a good sign when our starting PG is throwing a pity party on Twitter looking for comfort and we are 9 games into the season.

He gave a look of blame to Holman on a bad bounce pass.

I understand what you are saying but this guy is supposed to be our PG lottery pick according to some folks and he can’t get it right on or off the court.

 

[mstateglfr]

I understand what you are saying but this guy is supposed to be our PG lottery pick according to some folks and he can’t get it right on or off the court.

Peters is not supposed to be our PG lottery pick and anyone who suggests as much doesnt understand reality vs hope. I get that some mock draft somewhere listed Peters for some reason, but Peters was not a realistic potential lottery pick before and certainly isnt now.
You can choose to ignore what others claim and form your own views.

 

[Willow Grove Dawg]

He is noticeably hesitating on his jump shot now. It appears that he has lost all confidence. It almost looks like Steve Sax Syndrome.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

fair, Ben has benched him and drastically cut his minutes, to try and teach him, and has gotten no response.

He is having a tough time, but he is not alone. We have several young players trying to find their way on offense. You can definitely see them still looking for a direction to follow on the court. Q is trying to be a leader but he is not a vocal guy and no one is stepping up to help him yet. They need more time to get their collective together on offense and let everyone establish a role they are comfortable with.

I was just as frustrated as anyone last night with the play last night. They needed a game like that to see that they are not ready and where they need to improve.

The Howland comments are silly. "This is year three" is bull ****. This is the true year one since we finally have a full roster. The detractors need to step back. The fact that we have a coach of his caliber and he would take this one on knowing he would have to work through the last two seasons just to get to where he is finally working with what everyone else has to work with says a lot about him. I think if we can exercise some patience now we will be rewarded with the success we all want.

 

[&quot;Assclown&quot; #1]

I don’t think we are that far off, honestly.. we just need guys to develop chemistry and understand their roles. Ado has got to at least attempt to be an offensive presence. Even if he takes 5 shots and misses them all, at least teams know they have to actually guard him. He looked like a freshman playing in his first road game last night. Nick ‘spoon has got to find a balance between staying aggressive and taking better care of the basketball, which I think he will. If those two guys can keep getting better and Peters can snap out of his funk, we will be a pretty good, young team.

When you play your first real opponent on the road after playing cupcakes for a month, you’re going to be a step slow and a little out of sorts. Our defensive intensity was good though, just have to find some sort of offensive identity. We can still be a good team this year and we’re definitely heading in the right direction.

 

[ShrubDog]

Peters is not supposed to be our PG lottery pick and anyone who suggests as much doesnt understand reality vs hope. I get that some mock draft somewhere listed Peters for some reason, but Peters was not a realistic potential lottery pick before and certainly isnt now.
You can choose to ignore what others claim and form your own views.

My view is he will never make it big. It’s ridiculous what these mock draft people think about some players.

 

[thekimmer]

This...

In my opinion it's squarely on Stricklin for pulling the plug on his head coach with no plan to keep the program going. g.

Just one more 'gift' from loafers stricklands. He is primarily responsible for our basketball program being in the crapper for half a decade and counting to the point where we would be ecstatic just to get back to the level that got stans fired. This is in addition to the cheerleader bolting then poaching our head football coach who in like form has turned poaching into an art form.