Especially when the physicality and mental games are gone from the Pro game. Coach K is stricter than most of the NBA
One and dones..
- Thread starter pisgah101
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I agree and maybe even though young, all the players buy in next season and stay healthy.
I will go on record saying I'm standing by my bench comments. Good defensive players coming out of high school aren't gonna take a risk on riding the pine behind a lot of OAD's. K will have to use his bench and not just use seven guys. We know atleast White and Javin were healthy and they barely saw the court this season but might be called upon for heavy minutes next season.
It sucks losing multiple players early to the NBA every season but nothing has really changed in the way that Coach K and his coaching staff have been recruiting over the last 25-30 years, they still recruit the same type elite players that they've always recruited, the only thing that has changed is that the players in this generation want to get to the NBA as fast as they can and don't want to stay in college any longer than they have to before they go to the NBA.
True - but we also don't face as good of opponents
1999 Uconn
2000 Florida
2001 Maryland
2003 Kansas
2004 Uconn
The problem with one and done is what Calipari has stated in one of his books, "Good luck convincing some players that they're not one and done." A lot of guys think they're better than what they are and don't want to wait three or four years.
I've seen guys bail from Kentucky that I never thought would be one and done guys. I'm just saying it's easier said than done. I know I'd prefer something be done to have the one and done stuff stop and have them stay in college for at least two years.
I've seen guys bail from Kentucky that I never thought would be one and done guys. I'm just saying it's easier said than done. I know I'd prefer something be done to have the one and done stuff stop and have them stay in college for at least two years.
As would a lot of championship teams in the 90s and early 2000s. It sucks, to be honest. You have average guys bouncing after a year or two despite averaging single digits. In the 90s, you had Tim Duncan stay four years. You had Allen Iverson stay two, Ray Allen stay three, Vince Carter stay three, Paul Pierce stay three andbefore 1999, Duke hardly had anyone go pro early.
Go back and look at those Duke and Kentucky teams from the 90s and try and imagine those guys in today's era, staying for three to four years. You think Laettner, Hurley and Hill stay four years? You think 1996 Kentucky's nine eventual NBA players stay three to four years? No.
I hate the NBA. I only like college ball so seeing the college game getting weakened always bothers me.
It's a tossup for me. I think the difference between this year and 15 was the injuries. Yes, some will say that they regained full strength and we won the ACCT in 4 days. The OADs didn't lose this game. The turnovers killed us!!! So to say that OADs hurt is hard to say.
I know the NBA controls it, but I honestly think basketball should be like baseball. Either you go straight from HS or you stay at least 3 years in college. I realize Duke has benefited from a great OAD class, but I think it has ruined my opinion on basketball to an extent.
You guys do realize it's pretty tough to win a national championship right? I know this team had its flaws and it's frustrsting watching our defense continue to be suspect but if you had your pick of the litter to swap out our success for another program's success over the last 20-30 years who would you take? Or even the last 10 years?
Harry played defense scared of contact this year, but I can easily point to Luke and Grayson as playing atrocious defense as well. I'm not sure it's the one and done that causes this poor team defense. Duke has battled with these types of issues for a long time. I still wouldn't trade our program for any other
Harry played defense scared of contact this year, but I can easily point to Luke and Grayson as playing atrocious defense as well. I'm not sure it's the one and done that causes this poor team defense. Duke has battled with these types of issues for a long time. I still wouldn't trade our program for any other
Very frustrating year for sure. I disagree a little about Grayson's defense. He's not a stopper but his name should not be in same sentence with Luke's when it comes to defense. Then your center is 6-9 220, and Matt's offense is about as bad as Luke's defense. I love what Amile and Matt bring to table, but we needed more than what they could do. Unfortunately, the 7 Duke put out on floor leaves little room for error and the way the game was officiated compounded things.
Let's face it, this was as snake-bit a season as there's been in Duke history. So, all that has to be kept in mind in any discussion.
I don't think there are easy answers. The college game is a mess. But, there are teams - even NC - who are able to recruit kids and keep them. I think part of it could be Duke players get too much notoriety and are simply over-rated so they get NBA first round consideration (Kennard/Bolden) when they probably aren't that good. You need a mixture of veterans who have developed their game and the more talented types. A few observations:
1) K does not play the bench, fit players in, and we lose a lot on transfers. We were a 7 man team this year. That's it. I think K just has to change this. Sometimes that's on the player. Other times, I think they realize they aren't going to get any PT as more OADs come in. I think K could give some of these kids 4-5 minutes subbing in regular season games, occasional 10 mpg if they play well (Let's face it, freshmen and sophomores are inconsistent game to game) and that gives them hope that they'll get 15-20 the next year. You could be a kid with a lot of talent and if you are 8 or 9 on the bench, the odds are you aren't getting on the court for 2-3 years. We rarely keep our top 20 recruits if they don't get PT early. Even some that are in the 25-50 range may not stay if it looks like 4 years on the bench in their eyes.
- How would a Semi Ojeleye have looked at Duke this year? He and Matt Jones came in the same year. Similar things happened with Gbinijie. On ESPN's ranking in 2013, Ojeleye was ranked one slot ahead of, guess who? Thornwell - who got some early PT, stayed 4 years, became SEC POY and crushed us. Of course, Matt Jones was ranked ahead of both of those players and he's really not become what one might expect out of a #36 ranked player in the nation.
That same year, Villanova brought in Kris Jenkins and Josh Hart - both ranked in the lower half of the 50-100 Rankings (well below Jones, ironically, enough) - they both got PT early, though not core starters, and developed into great players over time helping their team win a title. But, they had hope they would become central players at 'Nova - Jenkins got 11 mpg and 4 pts as a freshman. Hart had a similar trajectory though with more PT early. By the time they're Sr's they're big time CBB players. If Jenkins were at Duke, odds are he'd have gotten 1-2 mpg game and transferred. Having a blend with kids like that - like Ojeleye could have been - would help. But, again, they have to get PT early and not be relegated to 2 minutes mop up in meaningless games.
2) It's partly the inability to scout (rankings clearly are a crap-shoot, in part) so we miss players. It seems that a number of the kids we recruit who are in the 25-50 range just have very little offensive potential. Amile, Matt Jones, Lance Thomas, none of those have any sort of offensive game to speak of - never did. I suspect we'll see similar play from DeLaurier - he will be another Amile/Thomas who works hard, plays D, but has little offensive scoring potential. That's all well and good. But, it doesn't help when you need someone who is both physical, mature, and can score 20 when needed. Frank Jackson has some game but he's going to have to really get better.
But often, the lower ranked recruits we bring in don't have offensive skill set potential like a Hart or Jenkins mentioned above. Or, if they do, they get so little time as freshmen that they leave. Until that changes it's going to be tough to get those kinds of developmental 40-70 ranked kids who will stay and actually develop.
3) Our recruiting often doesn't create balanced teams. Of the seven we have on the court, we had 4 shooting guards and 3 swing forwards (SF/PF). Giles is a SF in a 6'11 body who's less physical than Tatum at 6'8. Duke needs a PG in the worst way and the only kid on the horizon is Duval (who is likely OAD even if we were fortunate enough to land him).
Finally, I don't get the NBA love for some of our players. I see whole swath of kids across the country that look more NBA ready and have as much NBA potential as any kid on Duke other than Tatum. I think Duke kids get overrated by the NBA because it's Duke. And, I think that hurts continuity. All it takes is for a Frosh/Soph at Duke to get 15-20 points in a few games and he's vaulted himself into the NBA 1st round prediction machine. Ridiculous, imo.
I don't think there are easy answers. The college game is a mess. But, there are teams - even NC - who are able to recruit kids and keep them. I think part of it could be Duke players get too much notoriety and are simply over-rated so they get NBA first round consideration (Kennard/Bolden) when they probably aren't that good. You need a mixture of veterans who have developed their game and the more talented types. A few observations:
1) K does not play the bench, fit players in, and we lose a lot on transfers. We were a 7 man team this year. That's it. I think K just has to change this. Sometimes that's on the player. Other times, I think they realize they aren't going to get any PT as more OADs come in. I think K could give some of these kids 4-5 minutes subbing in regular season games, occasional 10 mpg if they play well (Let's face it, freshmen and sophomores are inconsistent game to game) and that gives them hope that they'll get 15-20 the next year. You could be a kid with a lot of talent and if you are 8 or 9 on the bench, the odds are you aren't getting on the court for 2-3 years. We rarely keep our top 20 recruits if they don't get PT early. Even some that are in the 25-50 range may not stay if it looks like 4 years on the bench in their eyes.
- How would a Semi Ojeleye have looked at Duke this year? He and Matt Jones came in the same year. Similar things happened with Gbinijie. On ESPN's ranking in 2013, Ojeleye was ranked one slot ahead of, guess who? Thornwell - who got some early PT, stayed 4 years, became SEC POY and crushed us. Of course, Matt Jones was ranked ahead of both of those players and he's really not become what one might expect out of a #36 ranked player in the nation.
That same year, Villanova brought in Kris Jenkins and Josh Hart - both ranked in the lower half of the 50-100 Rankings (well below Jones, ironically, enough) - they both got PT early, though not core starters, and developed into great players over time helping their team win a title. But, they had hope they would become central players at 'Nova - Jenkins got 11 mpg and 4 pts as a freshman. Hart had a similar trajectory though with more PT early. By the time they're Sr's they're big time CBB players. If Jenkins were at Duke, odds are he'd have gotten 1-2 mpg game and transferred. Having a blend with kids like that - like Ojeleye could have been - would help. But, again, they have to get PT early and not be relegated to 2 minutes mop up in meaningless games.
2) It's partly the inability to scout (rankings clearly are a crap-shoot, in part) so we miss players. It seems that a number of the kids we recruit who are in the 25-50 range just have very little offensive potential. Amile, Matt Jones, Lance Thomas, none of those have any sort of offensive game to speak of - never did. I suspect we'll see similar play from DeLaurier - he will be another Amile/Thomas who works hard, plays D, but has little offensive scoring potential. That's all well and good. But, it doesn't help when you need someone who is both physical, mature, and can score 20 when needed. Frank Jackson has some game but he's going to have to really get better.
But often, the lower ranked recruits we bring in don't have offensive skill set potential like a Hart or Jenkins mentioned above. Or, if they do, they get so little time as freshmen that they leave. Until that changes it's going to be tough to get those kinds of developmental 40-70 ranked kids who will stay and actually develop.
3) Our recruiting often doesn't create balanced teams. Of the seven we have on the court, we had 4 shooting guards and 3 swing forwards (SF/PF). Giles is a SF in a 6'11 body who's less physical than Tatum at 6'8. Duke needs a PG in the worst way and the only kid on the horizon is Duval (who is likely OAD even if we were fortunate enough to land him).
Finally, I don't get the NBA love for some of our players. I see whole swath of kids across the country that look more NBA ready and have as much NBA potential as any kid on Duke other than Tatum. I think Duke kids get overrated by the NBA because it's Duke. And, I think that hurts continuity. All it takes is for a Frosh/Soph at Duke to get 15-20 points in a few games and he's vaulted himself into the NBA 1st round prediction machine. Ridiculous, imo.
2012 and 2015 aren't good examples to defend the OaD method. 2012 worked for UK because they were absolutely loaded, like one of the top recruiting classes of the decade loaded. 2015 worked for Duke because we already had a solid foundation of upperclassmen who mentored our freshman, who also happened to be our most talented group of OaDers by far. Pair that with the fact that those 2015 freshman actually bought in from day one and had great chemistry with one another.
2012 was just unreal and 2015 was much more than just the OaD guys.
2012 was just unreal and 2015 was much more than just the OaD guys.
I've coached high school basketball for the past 15 years (albeit you keep your players for 4 years.) If I had a choice between coaching talent or not, I'd always choose to coach talent. It is unfortunate that the NBA has turned college into a 1 year stopover for the top-10 guys, but it is what it is.
Did our 1-and-done guys contribute to the loss yesterday, certainly. Tatum and Jackson both had some bone-headed turnovers. There were so many factors to the loss though. The one-and-dones weren't the guys that couldn't keep anyone in front of them. South Carolina played out of their minds, and it didn't help that it was essentially a home game for them, they were able to feed off of the crowds energy. We had some questionable calls on us, especially that one on Amile in crunch time where it didn't look like he even touched the guy. That would have turned into a layup/dunk for us and cut the lead down into a more manageable deficit.
I'd prefer a mix of top talent and 4 years, but to say that one-and-dones are not worth it to me is a crazy statement. Talent always gives you a shot. Without Tatum this year, where are we? We don't win the ACC tournament, that's for sure. It's unfortunate that Giles was hurt, and Bolden as well, but I think the negative sentiment has a lot to do with the insane expectations that were placed on this team from the start.
Just my 2 cents.
Did our 1-and-done guys contribute to the loss yesterday, certainly. Tatum and Jackson both had some bone-headed turnovers. There were so many factors to the loss though. The one-and-dones weren't the guys that couldn't keep anyone in front of them. South Carolina played out of their minds, and it didn't help that it was essentially a home game for them, they were able to feed off of the crowds energy. We had some questionable calls on us, especially that one on Amile in crunch time where it didn't look like he even touched the guy. That would have turned into a layup/dunk for us and cut the lead down into a more manageable deficit.
I'd prefer a mix of top talent and 4 years, but to say that one-and-dones are not worth it to me is a crazy statement. Talent always gives you a shot. Without Tatum this year, where are we? We don't win the ACC tournament, that's for sure. It's unfortunate that Giles was hurt, and Bolden as well, but I think the negative sentiment has a lot to do with the insane expectations that were placed on this team from the start.
Just my 2 cents.
Jason Williams, definitely. He said in his book that K made a mistake by not telling him he should have left earlier.
Yeah he's the only one tho that team would of still been stacked and idk if he meant leave his freshman year or his sophomore. I think the 01 team would of been together in any era
The very THOUGHT of not recruiting one and dones is absolutely ridiculous. We've been doing it since the beginning of time. Nothings changed.
If this happens (this is my preference as well), you have to put a specific early deadline to declare to go pro so a coach doesn't waste his whole time recruiting a kid only to get burned by them declaring for the NBA. That happened a ton before the one and done rule.
You're right show that not recruiting one and dones is ridiculous. The game has changed though. Our kids don't know Duke's way of playing d cause their only here a year.
UK 2012 had two OAD guys who were defensive studs including one guy who was an unstoppable shot blocking terror the likes we may never see again.
Yep, it just wasn't called that then...because they stayed in school. K recruits the best, always has, always will...as he should.
OFC
Young you're making some great points, but the chance you take with certain players coming(freshmen year) and staying(3 to 4 years) is not getting other players the following year. If Semi stays, Just does not come.
Transfers impact the next year's recruitment.
That's such BS.
I loved Jason Williams as a player and he seems like a good, thoughtful guy but give me a break.
K should have told him to leave sooner?
He was picked second in the draft!
What would he have gained by leaving?
He didn't have any bad injuries at Duke or in the pros.
He decided to get on that bike. His choice.
I cannot even believe he would say that. He entered the draft at the pinnacle of his value. How is that a bad thing?
He ended up getting a degree out of it which is good considering he ruined his playing career.
I agree they can influence some recruits decisions. And, it's probably best if Bolden moves on unless he really wants to be at Duke and grow. But, if we're talking a mid-level, 3-4 year talent like Semi who will take time to develop vs a top 10 kid - I don't think the top 10 or top 5 talent is going to be scared off by that. Especially so, if coach is using 8-9-10 guys during the regular season (dropping to 8, occasionally 9 for the tourney), then they know they are going to get PT coming in and the competition will only make them better. And, they also know they are going to have to be great and competitive anyway to get to the NBA the following year.
The thing is, in the past, coach had teams that played a lot more. in 90-91, 9 players averaged over 10 mpg playing in over 30 games each. In '99, 8 players averaged over 14 mpg (!) and throw in Domzalski who played 30 games and averaged just under 9 mpg and you have 9 guys getting minutes most games. Granted, a few of those weren't going to get as much come tourney time (though in '99, the top 8 played all through the tourney). But, they know they are contributors. And, they know they may be called upon if someone gets in foul trouble. Last night, they all knew only 7 guys were getting time and if Giles was passive - he wasn't going to be in except for foul trouble.
I feel like Coach has become stingier with minutes in the past decade and a half, in general. I don't know if he's just more uptight or gets more easily frustrated with some of the young guys coming in and won't trust them or what.
"I feel like Coach has become stingier with minutes in the past decade and a half, in general. I don't know if he's just more uptight or gets more easily frustrated with some of the young guys coming in and won't trust them or what."
This is the issue Young. Frustration and Reality. I watched Coach last night and he did not look so much frustrated as much as he was dealing with Reality. South Carolina was hungry, grown, crazy environment, no pg, Bigs were not ready, etc. He looked like a man who came to terms on what this season really was.
This is the issue Young. Frustration and Reality. I watched Coach last night and he did not look so much frustrated as much as he was dealing with Reality. South Carolina was hungry, grown, crazy environment, no pg, Bigs were not ready, etc. He looked like a man who came to terms on what this season really was.
Eh, I kind of see his point. He was projected first or second pick the year before. Had he left then, he would have been a year quicker to completing that rookie contract and making big money. Plus, he could have gotten hurt staying that extra year. I don't think his comments had anything to do with his motorcycle accident.
You know Semi and Justice were here at the same time, right?
You're reading too much into it. I read Jason's book, and the context I took from it was that 15 years ago Jason simply wouldn't have stayed the extra year. It had nothing to do with the motorcycle accident. It's no different that in today's age, even though we're only 11 years removed, that J.J. and Shelden probably don't stick for four years. it was just drawing parallel from then to now. Nothing more. Besides, Coach K spoke on Jason's behalf about the book and helped him push it. What Jason was trying to say wasn't a shot at Duke or K, whatsoever.
It's just a different world we are living in and that was Jason's whole point. JJ said the same thing when he was talking with Jay Bilas on his podcast this summer.
Dunleavy jr. For sure, and probably Boozer. Boozer was a second round pick after 3 years back then, but a guy like that averaging 13 and 7 as a freshman now, leaves.
heheh, Pisgah, my friend. We don't ALWAYS get bumped early son. Granted we don't win the ship' every other year, I understand your desire. This is a tournament, played by kids, who on any given night can do amazing things , and on any given night, just have a bad game. You can't constantly win it every year man. We've won it 5 times. There are schools out there who would donate their left testicle for ONE.
Not always but honestly are you happy with what we are right now? Especially after the hype? It's just disappointing to have so much hype and then it's over