OOC SOS is an Incomplete, Nonsense Stat

bigbirdru

Junior
Mar 6, 2010
2,256
332
83
OOC SOS is like saying “December SOS”. It is a small slice of the season, and means nothing without the larger picture.

Overall SOS is and should be the only “strength of schedule” metric. We play 20 league games in a gauntlet conference.

Upgrading the OOC is for teams in lower tier leagues that NEED to improve their overall SOS because they do not have that opportunity in league.

It is the difference between a 30-3 Gonzaga and 30-3 FAU.
 
Last edited:

Rutgers36

All-Conference
Dec 24, 2006
911
1,233
93
Completely agree. Two thirds of our season are games against top competition. Miami, SHU, Temple, Wake, even UMass-Lowell aren't gimmes. That leaves 6 games. Silly. Body of work, NET, Quad 1 and 2 wins, Wins against the field. Additionally, all bad losses aren't the same. The worst loss was a Power 5 team on the road that just got there best player back. Stop looking only at numbers.
 
Nov 15, 2001
15,044
15,615
0
OOC SOS is like saying “December SOS”. It is a small slice of the season, and means nothing without the larger picture.

Overall SOS is and should be the only “strength of schedule” metric. We play 20 league games in a gauntlet conference.

Upgrading the OOC is for teams in lower tier leagues that NEED to improve their overall SOS because they do not have that opportunity in league.

It is the difference between a 30-3 Gonzaga and 30-3 FAU.
The B1G as a conference is overrated. Lots of quality teams but the only threat this year (Purdue) is probably a pretender. 9 teams from the conference when they constantly underperform on the big stage was a problem. Therefore, We need to quit being afraid to play real teams OOC. The strength of schedule was in the low-mid 300s. Our crap scheduling worked until it didn’t .
 
  • Like
Reactions: batts

Miggins

All-Conference
Jul 25, 2001
1,540
2,296
112
Yes this is a VERY STRANGE requirement. Our overall SOS is something like 55 in Torvik, while Pitts is like 85. However one of the prime reasons they get picked over us is their strong OOC SOS?

Can you imagine if the College Football Playoffs used this logic? A couple of years down the road for the 12th playoff spot we have a 9-3 Wisconsin with a SOS of 20 but OOC SOS of 75 vs. say a 10-2 Tulane who has a SOS of 50 and OOC SOS of 50. Wisconsin 4-3 vs top 25 teams, Tulane 0-1. With the Basketball logic, Tulane would get the 12th spot..... just crazy.
 

bac2therac

Hall of Famer
Jul 30, 2001
238,181
167,912
113
good lord our ooc schedule is trash at 314.

There is no reason it has to be that bad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: batts

fluoxetine

Heisman
Nov 11, 2012
23,529
16,897
0
OOC SOS is like saying “December SOS”. It is a small slice of the season, and means nothing without the larger picture.

Overall SOS is and should be the only “strength of schedule” metric. We play 20 league games in a gauntlet conference.

Upgrading the OOC is for teams in lower tier leagues that NEED to improve their overall SOS because they do not have that opportunity in league.

It is the difference between a 30-3 Gonzaga and 30-3 FAU.
100% correct.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rutgers36

Miggins

All-Conference
Jul 25, 2001
1,540
2,296
112
good lord our ooc schedule is trash at 314.

There is no reason it has to be that bad.
Agree, and it really does not have to be as dramatically different then you would think at first. Replacing the two teams in the 300 rankings with teams in mid hundreds and adding 1 top 100 type team would dramatically improve the OOC schedule measure
 

-RUFAN4LIFE-

Heisman
Feb 28, 2015
29,581
45,848
113
OOC SOS is like saying “December SOS”. It is a small slice of the season, and means nothing without the larger picture.

Overall SOS is and should be the only “strength of schedule” metric. We play 20 league games in a gauntlet conference.

Upgrading the OOC is for teams in lower tier leagues that NEED to improve their overall SOS because they do not have that opportunity in league.

It is the difference between a 30-3 Gonzaga and 30-3 FAU.
It's easy to upgrade by scheduling teams like Buffalo, Bryant or Navy for example vs pitiful teams like Rider and Merrimack. Still a fairly easy OOC schedule but the SOS for those games markedly improves.

RU's OOC SOS did get screwed by Gonzaga and ND backing out of expected games. But RU doesn't gain anything by playing multiple teams ranked in the 300s
 

bac2therac

Hall of Famer
Jul 30, 2001
238,181
167,912
113
I get why everyone is bitching but the committee has literally told schools for years that they risk being left out if the sos is trash. Not just this year with Rutgers which was part not the entire reason. Its never just one thing. Its if you have multiple things wrong. Whether you agree that non conference play should count separately its something that they say will. Cannot just have Wake as your best ooc win. Yes some of these other teams that got in dont have great ooc but they still have better ooc than RIU

why the resistance to schedule tougher. does everyone just want to have the goal every year of sneaking in, lets set higher goals for the program going forward and challenge it.. Pike has done a fabulous job so far and after 4 years around the bubble its time to go higher
 

ScarletDave

Heisman
Oct 7, 2010
34,382
14,987
85
Do any other conferences play 20 conf games? Or 18. Because those 2 extra Big Ten games should count as OOC SOS if you’re going to legitimately compare us to other conferences teams. Otherwise the B1G should go back to 18 games, we can schedule 2 high major ACC teams instead of 2 Big Ten teams and all of a sudden we have the EXACT SAME schedule strength, yet this pretend “OOC SOS” metric goes shooting up.
 

RUChoppin

Heisman
Dec 1, 2006
19,270
13,695
0
The B1G as a conference is overrated. Lots of quality teams but the only threat this year (Purdue) is probably a pretender. 9 teams from the conference when they constantly underperform on the big stage was a problem. Therefore, We need to quit being afraid to play real teams OOC. The strength of schedule was in the low-mid 300s. Our crap scheduling worked until it didn’t .

Only 46 of 363 teams had at least 20 Q1/Q2 games, and of those only 21 went at least .500 against them.

On the flip side, there were 148 teams that did better in Q3/Q4 than we did (.692), because we dropped games to three "decent but not terrible" Q3 teams (78 SHU, 92 Nebraska, 127 Temple).

I think we need to clear out any OOC programs that are in the 51-250 range in NET. Beat up on the weaklings, and if you lose OOC let it be to someone who's safely in Q1/Q2. The only team we should have on the schedule that falls into that range, imo, is SHU - because it's a longstanding rivalry game.
 

RUsojo

Heisman
Dec 17, 2010
28,308
26,922
113
Imagine if we didn’t get assigned Miami on the road and got Louisville instead.

This is why we need to proactively schedule tougher to mitigate the risk we don’t controlz
 
  • Like
Reactions: bac2therac

bigbirdru

Junior
Mar 6, 2010
2,256
332
83
Do any other conferences play 20 conf games? Or 18. Because those 2 extra Big Ten games should count as OOC SOS if you’re going to legitimately compare us to other conferences teams. Otherwise the B1G should go back to 18 games, we can schedule 2 high major ACC teams instead of 2 Big Ten teams and all of a sudden we have the EXACT SAME schedule strength, yet this pretend “OOC SOS” metric goes shooting up.
100%

Also, lower tier teams are doing the opposite in OOC- playing power 5 teams (getting their brains beat in) and then playing cupcakes in league.

A cupcake team will have a very high OOC SOS. The stat means nothing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rutgers36

bigbirdru

Junior
Mar 6, 2010
2,256
332
83
I get why everyone is bitching but the committee has literally told schools for years that they risk being left out if the sos is trash. Not just this year with Rutgers which was part not the entire reason. Its never just one thing. Its if you have multiple things wrong. Whether you agree that non conference play should count separately its something that they say will. Cannot just have Wake as your best ooc win. Yes some of these other teams that got in dont have great ooc but they still have better ooc than RIU

why the resistance to schedule tougher. does everyone just want to have the goal every year of sneaking in, lets set higher goals for the program going forward and challenge it.. Pike has done a fabulous job so far and after 4 years around the bubble its time to go higher
Playing Kansas and ucla on neutral court makes us 17-17 this year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rutgers36
A

anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy

Guest
Your opinion means zilch. Its the opinion of the committee that picks teams that matters.

They care about it, it’s fully in our control to change it. Therefore unless youre insane, you change it if youre pike
 
A

anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy

Guest
Playing Kansas and ucla on neutral court makes us 17-17 this year.
Why not use the seton hall example of their holiday tourney of memphis oklahoma and siena? If we play them and go 2-1 were in the tourney.
 

Skull83

All-Conference
Jul 31, 2001
2,411
3,224
98
Or use the Rutgers example of Miami, Temple, Seton Hall.

If we play them and go 2-1 we're in the tourney.
I realize it's not an OOC game, but add Minnesota to make a trio of Temple, Seton Hall and Minnesota - win 2 out of 3 of those games and we're in the tournament comfortably with exactly the same schedule.

It's sort of a chicken v. egg thing, it sounds simple to make the OOC schedule stronger but the bottom line is winning games. If we won a couple more of the Quad 3 games with our current schedule we'd be fine. If we add more Quad 1 and Quad 2 games to the OOC schedule will we accumulate more losses and put ourselves in a hole before the grind of the B1G schedule?
 
Oct 17, 2007
69,704
47,620
0
Yes this is a VERY STRANGE requirement. Our overall SOS is something like 55 in Torvik, while Pitts is like 85. However one of the prime reasons they get picked over us is their strong OOC SOS?

Can you imagine if the College Football Playoffs used this logic? A couple of years down the road for the 12th playoff spot we have a 9-3 Wisconsin with a SOS of 20 but OOC SOS of 75 vs. say a 10-2 Tulane who has a SOS of 50 and OOC SOS of 50. Wisconsin 4-3 vs top 25 teams, Tulane 0-1. With the Basketball logic, Tulane would get the 12th spot..... just crazy.

I was thinking this too.

Imagine if Alabama was kept out of the football playoff because their OOC was so soft.

UF proudly advertises that they refuse to play OOC games outside of Florida.

But yet RU has to play an OOC gauntlet. We should just copy Nevada's OOC schedule. I'm sure it's filled with luminaries.
 

The RUT

Heisman
Oct 30, 2011
35,158
18,738
61
It's only an issue because the B1G has struggled in the tournament, even though computer metrics love the B1G.

It's human bias.

Saying our OOC schedule is crap was just a cop out to cap the B1G at 8 teams because its a glaringly bad number. If the B1G had tournament success the past two years, we're in the tournament this year.
 
A

anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy

Guest
It's only an issue because the B1G has struggled in the tournament, even though computer metrics love the B1G.

It's human bias.

Saying our OOC schedule is crap was just a cop out to cap the B1G at 8 teams because its a glaringly bad number. If the B1G had tournament success the past two years, we're in the tournament this year.
Nah its not a cop out, its an actual fact. Our ooc is dog ****.
 

The RUT

Heisman
Oct 30, 2011
35,158
18,738
61
Nah its not a cop out, its an actual fact. Our ooc is dog ****.
and our conference schedule makes up for it.

I would buy this argument if the numbers supported it, but they simply dont.

Richie tweeted it, but here's the complete SOS for the teams in questions:

Mississippi State - 38
Rutgers - 41
Arizona State - 55
Nevada - 70!
Pitt - 91!!!!!!!!

Don't talk about SOS and then give a team like Pitt a bid.

For the record, I do think the OOC should be improved. I think we should play all blue bloods and tell the NCAA to eat ****. But of course, no blue blood is going to schedule a home and home with us because they won't want to play at the RAC.

Guess we'll have to play @Duke and then they'll return the game for us @msg where they get half the gate and the committee will consider it a home game lmfao.

It's a joke. If the SOS is your argument, remain consistent. Rutgers had a better SOS than ASU, Nevada, and Pitt. Period.
 

Rutgers36

All-Conference
Dec 24, 2006
911
1,233
93
We didn’t play Seton Hall in a neutral court tournament, we played them at home at the RAC and lost. Temple neutral court and lost. Win them and there isn’t an out of conference problem.
 

kcg88

Heisman
Aug 11, 2017
10,862
17,230
0
It's complete horseshit. Check this out.

 

NickRU714

Heisman
Aug 18, 2009
13,604
12,367
0
Because on top of oklahoma memphis and siena they had rutgers, kansas, iowa

And yet they didn't make the tournament either.
Why not? They had a good OOC SOS.

Actual wins matter.
Arguments over OOC SOS or overall SOS only matter if you lose the games.

We win our "******" OOC games and it doesn't matter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Skull83

NewJerseyHawk

Heisman
Jan 11, 2007
23,905
37,579
113
Why not use the seton hall example of their holiday tourney of memphis oklahoma and siena? If we play them and go 2-1 were in the tourney.

You keep saying this and it's incorrect.

They played Oklahoma because it was the losers bracket based on the 1st game. You don't control who you play, it's based on who wins the 1st games in the tournament.

You could actually have your schedule become worse in these settings. SHU had no intention in playing Siena and Oklahoma finished dead last in the Big 12.....Memphis is a 9 seed, nothing elite to discuss.

At least look into the details, there are 3 other combinations of teams SHU could have played, the schedule is not iron-clad irregardless of the results.

The bottom line isn't the OOC. It is scheduling nondescript, no-mans land BS games like St Bona in Toronto, Temple in Mohegan Sun as a 1 off game on a sleepy Friday afternoon and last year, playing at UMass.

Why we are scheduled with these no brand teams, is the issue. Your not getting credit for beating that type of team.

Play 1 meaningful OOC game, one game like Seton Hall or Providence which I am fine with and schedule a Wake Forest or NC State type of game.

In the end, the B1G was victimized by the committee across the board by the NCAAs....the seedings were trash from the beginning.

2 years ago, it was lack of road wins everyone claimed we needed.

Last year it was the NET was too low, because we had a worse loss to Lafayette at home, that is far more damaging than losing at Minnesota.

This year, the committee just randomly picked 3 other teams, whose resumes have all the same gaps of lack of overall quality or lack of Q1 wins.

If anyone claims OOC overrides Q1 wins or road wins, they're lying....the 1000 posts discussing that covers it.

If fans want to have rabbit ears and overschedule your way to the NIT every year, go for it....we'll watch St Mary's, NC State, Nevada, Pittsburgh play, while Michigan, Oklahoma State, RU and North Carolina all who had superior OOC slates, are left home or were NIT bound.
 

NewJerseyHawk

Heisman
Jan 11, 2007
23,905
37,579
113
It's complete horseshit. Check this out.


Preach man......these knuckleheads just want to say RU is in a OOC tournament in some hotel makeshift arena in the Virgin Islands or Cancun, not because it's relevant to the selection committee. There is no 1 factor, there are 6 to 7 and they randomly select which one they want to apply.

The bottom line is RU got hosed....instead of saying that, the OOC superheroes who want to play Princeton at Jadwin or fly 4000 miles for 1 game at Spokane Washington and Gonzaga are insane.
 

The RUT

Heisman
Oct 30, 2011
35,158
18,738
61
If fans want to have rabbit ears and overschedule your way to the NIT every year, go for it....we'll watch St Mary's, NC State, Nevada, Pittsburgh play, while Michigan, Oklahoma State, RU and North Carolina all who had superior OOC slates, are left home or were NIT bound.
I just want to do it one year so I can keyboard warrior the NCAA and tell them to eat ****, look at our OOC. #1 schedule in the country and 16/17 wins.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: kcg88 and NickRU714

ColonelRutgers

All-American
Dec 15, 2003
7,077
9,215
113
And for the record, 21 of 33 of our games are conference games so only 12 OOC and we played w/o Paul and Caleb in several of those. The only one we lost at full strength was Seton Hall (#77 - 2 spots from Quad 2) who we lost to by two.
 
  • Like
Reactions: biazza38

jordkap

All-Conference
Jul 11, 2016
2,804
4,410
0
good lord our ooc schedule is trash at 314.

There is no reason it has to be that bad.
I’m fairly convinced if we swapped out Temple for Gonzaga and lost by 6 our NCSOS would have been 50-80 points better with the same result. Just play 1-2 great teams with small chances of winning. Will change things from ranked 315 to 200-250. Problem solved
 

NickRU714

Heisman
Aug 18, 2009
13,604
12,367
0
I’m fairly convinced if we swapped out Temple for Gonzaga and lost by 6 our NCSOS would have been 50-80 points better with the same result. Just play 1-2 great teams with small chances of winning. Will change things from ranked 315 to 200-250. Problem solved

No need to swap out Temple for Gonzaga unless you assume we'll never beat Temple.
That's the wrong logic.

If we had actually beat Temple and it didn't matter then you upgrade Temple (higher chance of losing but winning looks better).

The first step is actually winning. Then upgrade if having a clean resume doesn't work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kcg88