OT: House building...what I saw last week

[thatsbaseball]

I found this interesting and it may apply to some of you looking to buy a home. Went to a subdivision in Madison. Nice looking well kept place made up of less than 3 year old homes basically priced around $300K. What I saw in the newest addition to the place was concerning....at least to me. They were building a whole street of homes at one time. It was basically like an assembly line with the same foundation,framing,plumbing etc crews going from house to house building 10-12 $300K homes and it resembled someone hastily throwing up a movie set. The good..lots of craftsmen and workers on the job(dozens of Mexicans) and lots of materials being used. The bad..can a $300K home built in a few weeks be worth a **** ? I don`t keep up with the home building industry closely but is this the norm these days ?

 

[Shmuley]

Until the f'n lenders get off their *** and start loaning to developers, you're going to continue to see this kind of **** going on. We're seeing it throughout the metro. The available lots are in developments that were on line at the time of the collapse. So instead of seeing activity spread out over multiple areas, you're seeing these assembly lines in existing developments. Demand for new construction is starting to heat up, so these builders are kicking *** to get them up and out as fast as possible. You are right to be concerned about the quality of the construction in your neighborhood since it can have a direct impact on your fair market value.

It used to bother me to see Mexicans by the scores on a house site. Now I'm just glad to see human beings that are willing to work and work hard and take pride in their job. As an employer, I appreciate an employee that works hard because it's the right thing to do.

 

[HammerOfTheDogs]

The workmanship can be shoddy, plus the wood isn't as good as it used to be

I found this interesting and it may apply to some of you looking to buy a home. Went to a subdivision in Madison. Nice looking well kept place made up of less than 3 year old homes basically priced around $300K. What I saw in the newest addition to the place was concerning....at least to me. They were building a whole street of homes at one time. It was basically like an assembly line with the same foundation,framing,plumbing etc crews going from house to house building 10-12 $300K homes and it resembled someone hastily throwing up a movie set. The good..lots of craftsmen and workers on the job(dozens of Mexicans) and lots of materials being used. The bad..can a $300K home built in a few weeks be worth a **** ? I don`t keep up with the home building industry closely but is this the norm these days ?

My brother-in-law built a house about 10 years ago, and it was interesting seeing all the knots in the wood. My old house in Northeast Jackson, which was built in 1967 and survived the Flood of 1979 and had power in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in 2005, was a ranch house that had no knots in it and were real 2" by 4" wood, not 1 7/8" by 3 7/8" (or something like that).

 

[mcdawg22]

Delete

 

[mcdawg22]

I found this interesting and it may apply to some of you looking to buy a home. Went to a subdivision in Madison. Nice looking well kept place made up of less than 3 year old homes basically priced around $300K. What I saw in the newest addition to the place was concerning....at least to me. They were building a whole street of homes at one time. It was basically like an assembly line with the same foundation,framing,plumbing etc crews going from house to house building 10-12 $300K homes and it resembled someone hastily throwing up a movie set. The good..lots of craftsmen and workers on the job(dozens of Mexicans) and lots of materials being used. The bad..can a $300K home built in a few weeks be worth a **** ? I don`t keep up with the home building industry closely but is this the norm these days ?

It's been that way for years in other cities. In Columbia, SC there was a neighborhood we looked at where every house was the same on one side of the street except for the colors of the shutters. On the other side all houses were being built at the exact same pace. The house we eventually bought was unique but when I did an expansion on the deck, I noticed a lot of joist weren't completely nailed in, and the deck was built like a platform on top of a frame.

 

[Lawdawg.sixpack]

This. It's only a matter of time before they are throwing up model homes around Jackson. Now THAT's assembly line production.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Sounds like Olive Branch and some of Southaven.

 

[WrapItDog]

In a perfect world the lots and houses would move and the Mexicans would stay in one spot.
Henry Ford

It all comes down to supervision in quality control. If you go to an area where there has been some recent hail damage to roofs. There are some traveling roofing co. that have a good system. Use unskilled low paying workers and one supervisor/skilled laborer to tear off the shingles/install felt/clean up (unskilled) and the one supervisor(skilled) to repair any rotten/bad decking/flashing/vents. They move on to the next house and the skilled shingle slingers come in and install shingles with a couple of unskilled workers toting shingles and cleaning up. They can work more efficient doing one task and save money on labor cost as each worker is payed an amount equal to his skill level. If the work isn't supervised to make sure each step is completed correctly and in a timely manner you end up with a ****** roof that was installed real quick. If supervised properly you end a with a good product installed in a timely manner. The cost savings may or may not (usually the case) be passed on to the customer/homeowner.

 

[RocketDawg]

Saw the same thing in Lancaster and Palmdale, Calif. several years ago. Except it wasn't 10-12 houses ... it was hundreds. I suppose any time you get a spec house, the quality is not going to be fantastic. The builders use "contractor grade" everything, which sucks. They try to save everywhere they can because it adds up.

The Mexicans I'm familiar with do quality work. They know what they're doing and they don't mind working hard. That's more than can be said for a lot of Americans. Whether they should be here illegally is beside the point.

 

[Jimbob Cooter]

Materials were cheaper back in those days. Nowadays it's cheaper (and sells better) to just build new houses with cheaper materials than to renovate old houses with better materials. Goes for AC units, appliances, etc. too.

 

[Felonious Junk]

what do you expect for 300K?

 

[Dash Riprock.sixpack]

I would not be concerned about that. Houses being built today are of better quality than in the early 2000's mainly because if a builder or subcontractor has survived the downturn, they are probably good. Gone, probably temporarily, are the builder by morning and drug rep.'s by afternoon which hurt quality back in the boom time. Also, if a builder can build 4 or 5 houses at one time, his subcontractors don't have to leave the site and the best subcontractors want that job and will bid to get it. All that being said, when you stick build houses on site like we do here with no pre-fab done, the quality is hard to maintain and the house is only as good as the how much the builder or builder's foreman oversees the construction.

 

[whosyourdawgy]

Ok, first of all, what subdivision? 2nd, how would you suggest to develop a subdivision? Subdivisions are built in phases, lots are sold to several different builders, then they build the new phase out. When you get a hot spot where houses are selling, it's gonna be busy and that isn't a bad thing. Most of the rift raft builders are long gone now and to even get a construction loan, the builder is in good financial standing and spending wisely or the banks wouldn't give him a penny. Also, Madison is pretty strict with inspecting houses and has some very experienced guys inspecting these houses as they go up. Builders can't just throw a house up as you say without passing several inspections along the way. Bottom line is, you shouldn't be concerned if the neighborhood is being heavily developed Thats really a good sign for a home owner and buyer to know that the property value of that neighborhood will be very good and a good investment.

 

[thatsbaseball]

First of all it`s not my neighborhood. It`s Grayhawk and I was out there on business. If you or anyone else feels good about buying an assembly line home that`s great. BUT if your going to try to tell me that those homes are as well constructed as one built in what I consider a traditional method by a reputable builder I`m calling ********. This is strictly based on my opinion/observation and I could be dead wrong.

 

[Col. Forbin]

First of all it`s not my neighborhood. It`s Grayhawk and I was out there on business. If you or anyone else feels good about buying an assembly line home that`s great. BUT if your going to try to tell me that those homes are as well constructed as one built in what I consider a traditional method by a reputable builder I`m calling ********. This is strictly based on my opinion/observation and I could be dead wrong.

I was guessing that was the neighborhood you were talking about. The array of appraisal vaules for in there is very large,too.

 

[SWFLDawg]

That's how most of the Nat'l home builders work...Pulte, Toll Brothers, US Homes, etc. If the codes are strong like here in South Florida, the quality has to be pretty good. Not so much in Mississippi where the codes are not as strong. Except at the very high end, spec homes will be built to code minimum.

Hell, my folks live outside Collins, they built a nice custom home and had one inspection and that was for the septic. My house in Naples had 40 inspections.

 

[Buford T. Justice]

First of all it`s not my neighborhood. It`s Grayhawk and I was out there on business. If you or anyone else feels good about buying an assembly line home that`s great. BUT if your going to try to tell me that those homes are as well constructed as one built in what I consider a traditional method by a reputable builder I`m calling ********. This is strictly based on my opinion/observation and I could be dead wrong.

You are dead wrong and have no clue what you are talking about.

If it was Grayhawk then you do not know what you are talking about. The current home construction in Grayhawk is in Part Three-B. It is in Madison County, not the City of Madison. There is no assemly line construction like you say. You are totally wrong. Homes are being built by individual builders (Arthur Noble, David Turner, Barry Woodward, Thomas Rhoden, Todd Coleman, Rick Werhan, Steve Rimmer, Jeff Terry, etc.)

 

[Buford T. Justice]

You are dead wrong. That ain't happening. I know for a fact.

 

[whosyourdawgy]

Dead wrong is a great way to say it.

Throw Lister Homes in that mix too. Look I sell or try to sell to all of these guys out there. I would buy a house from and trust any one of the men that build there. That is a great neighborhood and THE hottest one going at this time. And if you happen to own a home in Grayhawk right now, your appraisal value is thru the roof.

 

[Buford T. Justice]

Dead wrong is a great way to say it.

Throw Lister Homes in that mix too. Look I sell or try to sell to all of these guys out there. I would buy a house from and trust any one of the men that build there. That is a great neighborhood and THE hottest one going at this time. And if you happen to own a home in Grayhawk right now, your appraisal value is thru the roof.

I know Tommy Lister. Part four is under construction now. Clearing and dirt is done, and Ed Blurton is currently installing sewer. More lots will be on the market late summer or early fall. They've got a good product going.

 

[LandArchDawg]

Probably because houses were framed with Douglas fir or other western woods back then. My 1954 ranch in Memphis is framed with Douglas fir and is likewise free of knotting. The mass growing of Southern yellow pine (which is very knotty) as a land management and investment options for large landowners had not begun yet.

 

[ronpolk]

You are dead wrong and have no clue what you are talking about.

If it was Grayhawk then you do not know what you are talking about. The current home construction in Grayhawk is in Part Three-B. It is in Madison County, not the City of Madison. There is no assemly line construction like you say. You are totally wrong. Homes are being built by individual builders (Arthur Noble, David Turner, Barry Woodward, Thomas Rhoden, Todd Coleman, Rick Werhan, Steve Rimmer, Jeff Terry, etc.)

Buford is right on this. The houses being built at Grayhawk (really any subdivision in Gluckstadt) are of a good quality. You see several houses going up at once but that's just an efficient way for the builder to operate.

 

[ShrubDog]

Hey, I used to work for the largest housing developer in the nation. And even several in the top 25. Top dogs of the industry. I saw them lose allot of money in 2007 doing this same stuff in Florida. To this day there are job sites(thousands of acres) with roads and infrastructure put in and no houses on them. Spending millions upon millions just to cut down trees and fill in wetlands to build a row of houses....Cookie cutter junk.

And these same guys had the inside track on the upcoming collapse back then and told me. And I was thankful they did cause I got my ducks in a row just in time.

I am still friends with these same people and they are telling me to get ready again cause its about to burst before we know it. They are stopping projects left and right again.

 

[coach66]

The powerful Federation of Madison County Homeowner would never allow this*

I was one of the founding members. Madison was too stuck up to join so they formed
MONA.

 

[ShrubDog]

That's how most of the Nat'l home builders work...Pulte, Toll Brothers, US Homes, etc. If the codes are strong like here in South Florida, the quality has to be pretty good. Not so much in Mississippi where the codes are not as strong. Except at the very high end, spec homes will be built to code minimum.

Hell, my folks live outside Collins, they built a nice custom home and had one inspection and that was for the septic. My house in Naples had 40 inspections.

I have worked with all of the ones you listed in Florida. And the codes may be strong in Florida than Mississippi but that doesn't make the workmanship better. I have seen some straight up junk and horrible engineered sites by all of them. I know cause I worked for them.

 

[FlabLoser]

Sausage, legislation, and home building.

 

[thatsbaseball]

Do any of the builders you`re touting have complete crews of site prep, foundation,plumbing, framing,roofing,electric,HVAC,drywall etc etc etc on THEIR year round company payroll. I doubt it. They all use the same craftsmen(for the most part) for those services. And guess what one of criteria the use to select said craftsmen.....you got it. All I reported was that I saw a neighborhood being thrown up like ***** houses in an 1840`s California mining town. For the record I don`t give a **** if they build the houses out of kryptonite I just don`t want a house that anyone built that fast.

 

[Buford T. Justice]

I know good and damn well what you reported and it was full of errors. I will bet my life that I know more than anybody on this board about Grayhawk and you were wrong. Test me if you dont believe me. Nothing is being built in weeks. It ain't assembly line. There are tons of houses going up, but that is because there are many different builders, and some builders (Noble for example) buy more than one lot. This is not assembly line going from one lot to the next.

 

[Lawdawg.sixpack]

The fact that the builders have to hire out subcontractors actually proves the opposite of your point.

And a builder is only as good as his subs. Especially in an upper end market like Madison/Gluckstadt. The subs know that too.

 

[Buford T. Justice]

The fact that the builders have to hire out subcontractors actually proves the opposite of your point.

You are correct lawdawg.

 

[ronpolk]

Do any of the builders you`re touting have complete crews of site prep, foundation,plumbing, framing,roofing,electric,HVAC,drywall etc etc etc on THEIR year round company payroll. I doubt it. They all use the same craftsmen(for the most part) for those services. And guess what one of criteria the use to select said craftsmen.....you got it. All I reported was that I saw a neighborhood being thrown up like ***** houses in an 1840`s California mining town. For the record I don`t give a **** if they build the houses out of kryptonite I just don`t want a house that anyone built that fast.

Exactly how long do you think it should take to build a home?

 

[Buford T. Justice]

This is what you said and where you are wrong.

I found this interesting and it may apply to some of you looking to buy a home. Went to a subdivision in Madison (wrong: in Madison County). Nice looking well kept place made up of less than 3 year old homes (wrong again: some homes over 3 years old) basically priced around $300K. What I saw in the newest addition to the place was concerning....at least to me. They were building a whole street of homes at one time. It was basically like an assembly line with the same foundation,framing,plumbing etc crews going from house to house building 10-12 $300K homes and it resembled someone hastily throwing up a movie set. (NO! They are not doing this like DR Horton or Pulte. This is not assembly line. Nobody is going from house to house with the same crews. These are different individual builders. They are simply all building homes at the same time because the phase just opened and demand is there) The good..lots of craftsmen and workers on the job(dozens of Mexicans) and lots of materials being used. The bad..can a $300K home built in a few weeks be worth a **** (wroing again: no house is built in a few weeks, not even close to that)? I don`t keep up with the home building industry closely but is this the norm these days (they are building in the same fashion as does/did Reunion, Wellington, Ashbrooke, Stillhouse Creek, St. Ives, Saint Regis, Ironwood, Fieldstone, Hathaway Lake, Belle Terre, Enclave, Hartford, Devlin Springs, Hartfield, Lake Caroline, Falls Crossing, Ridgefield, Bradshaw Ridge, Bear Creek Crossing, Hanover, Kemper Creek, Harvey Crossing, Cedar Green of Sheffield, Bainbridge, Providence, ............)?


The assembly line approach you mentioned does happen in other cities where corporate builders do things. It has not happened in central Mississippi to my knowledge. I know it didn't happen in Grayhawk. In the words of Silas Robertson: That's a fact Jack!

 

[SWFLDawg]

True,
but at least when the same ****** builder is being watched closely, they will have to do better than when not being watched. And of course the code and inspections do not really cover craftsmanship. The days of having trusses sitting on block walls, sitting on a thickened slab with no rebar and filled cells tying it all together went away with Andrew. But you still have 1 1/2" mortar joints and leaky windows.

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

My brother-in-law built a house about 10 years ago, and it was interesting seeing all the knots in the wood. My old house in Northeast Jackson, which was built in 1967 and survived the Flood of 1979 and had power in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in 2005, was a ranch house that had no knots in it and were real 2" by 4" wood, not 1 7/8" by 3 7/8" (or something like that).

2x4s have never been 2 inches by 4 inches. They are cut to that during milling but the boards shrink as they dry and must also be planed, so 1/8 to 1/4 inch off the final size is not uncommon (it can be about 3/4 inch when you get into the x10 and x12 range).

The thing I've noticed every time I've walked through the lumber department at Lowes or Home Depot is how many of the boards have warping. Nothing that would preclude you from using the board for a small project, but enough to make it unusable for home construction. And where I live (in Madison, AL) the expensive home that cost 5 times as much as mine have the kind of structural problems you wouldn't expect in homes that expensive. The same crews building the low-end starter homes are building the mcmansions, and giving the same amount of 17 about each.

 

[ronpolk]

2x4s have never been 2 inches by 4 inches. They are cut to that during milling but the boards shrink as they dry and must also be planed, so 1/8 to 1/4 inch off the final size is not uncommon (it can be about 3/4 inch when you get into the x10 and x12 range).

The thing I've noticed every time I've walked through the lumber department at Lowes or Home Depot is how many of the boards have warping. Nothing that would preclude you from using the board for a small project, but enough to make it unusable for home construction. And where I live (in Madison, AL) the expensive home that cost 5 times as much as mine have the kind of structural problems you wouldn't expect in homes that expensive. The same crews building the low-end starter homes are building the mcmansions, and giving the same amount of 17 about each.

I can say with 100% confidence that no builder in those Madison County subdivisions is getting lumber from Home Depot or Lowes. The homes that have structural issues in this area are because of the yazoo clay.

 

[tb2]

So you would prefer a house that has been built over a long period of time?

Do any of the builders you`re touting have complete crews of site prep, foundation,plumbing, framing,roofing,electric,HVAC,drywall etc etc etc on THEIR year round company payroll. I doubt it. They all use the same craftsmen(for the most part) for those services. And guess what one of criteria the use to select said craftsmen.....you got it. All I reported was that I saw a neighborhood being thrown up like ***** houses in an 1840`s California mining town. For the record I don`t give a **** if they build the houses out of kryptonite I just don`t want a house that anyone built that fast.

I guess that means you prefer that your new fresh lumber also has plenty of rain on it? You clearly have no clue what you are talking about in regards to building houses. I would suggest that the speed in building a house has much more to do with the availability of the sub contractors than the quality of construction. In a slow market, you can have your subs lined up and ready to go as soon as work is available. This likely even means you have multiple subs on the job site at the same time. In a very busy market, subs are not waiting on jobs to become available so there are times when you are waiting on them.

 

[RocketDawg]

A 2x4 was really 2x4 many years ago, but not in our lifetime. They were rough cut and used that way for framing. They may have shrunk a little by drying, but that's why they're called 2x4 today as a "nominal" size. The real measurements are 3.5x1.5, after planing. Before planing, they were cut to a real 2x4.

 

[whosyourdawgy]

If you don't mind me asking, which subdivision do you live in in Madison?

And the way you are suggesting with a builder having an entire crew to build a house is a track builder. I wouldn't live in a track builder house if they gave it to me. I'd be willing to bet that you live in a house built the exact same way the ones you are basically calling junk are being built at Grayhawk. If Grayhawk houses are, so is every house in Reunion, St Ives, Charlestown, Ironwood, Hartford, Bridgewater, etc... I've been in this now for about 9 years selling to a lot of these builders and every house in every neighborhood that I have sold to has been done in a similar fashion. Each builder has their own little ways of doing things and yes there are some I wouldn't want to buy, but as I said before, most of those builders aren't building houses any longer.

I'd also be curious as to how you think the right way to build a house is. I built my own, hired all my subs, did a ton myself to save where I could, and my house is rock solid. But it was built in the same fashion as all these were. What should be done differently to build a good house?

 

[thatsbaseball]

If you don`t mind me asking...exactly what nerve did I strike with you fellows. You seem mighty nervous about me pointing out the manner which these houses are being constructed. If anyone on here wants to see what`s going on out there they need to just go see for themselves before the houses get fully enclosed and painted. Just let people form their own opinion if they are interested. Fair enough ? As for your claim that the quality of houses in Grayhawk = the quality of houses in Bridgewater..... you may want to consider changing your username to JayCarney`s dawgy cause that is ********. I don`t have a life and death interest in this subject like some of you seem to have.... I simply made an admittedly semi- uniformed at best observation but some of yall`s paranoia about this has caught my attention and I`ll watch even closer in the future. Now I am out.

 

[whosyourdawgy]

Some of the builders in there have built in Bridgewater. I have no paranoia whatsoever about anything going on at Grayhawk. Only nerve struck is a semi uninformed person talking about very reputable builders and the hottest selling subdivision in Madison county. Undoubtedly you live in Bridgewater and therefore make a very good living for yourself and are probably a pretty smart dude. David Smith lives in Bridgewater, as do a few other builders. David Smith is a very well respected builder in the state and he builds houses exactly like everyone else at Grayhawk does. I've supplied many many houses in Bridgewater with lumber, insulation, shingles, garage doors, and other things and I can tell you for a FACT that these houses are built the exact same way as the ones in Grayhawk. Go look at some of the signs of the builders in the newest phase of Bridgewater. Then ride to Reunion, Ironwood, Charlestown and you will see some of the same names. The same lumber companies supply the same lumber, the same subs put the wiring, hvac, plumbing in, the same insulation companies install the insulation and the same framing crews frame em.

All I'd ask is before you start slinging mud, be a little less semi-informed.