OT: JFK

[DaRealistDawg]

What are y'all's opinions of the assassination and the conspiracies? As I have gotten older the sheer # of stories and experts testimony has made me a conspiracist in this particular case and watching all the specials this past month has only heightened my belief. Jack Ruby, Clay Shaw, LBJs pres ambitions, Agent Hickey in follow up car misfiring his AR, JFK in the car moving "back and to the left", a 2nd gunman above fence, the doctored Oswalt pics, Dr. Mary's Monkey, damage of the fatal head wound vs the first shot magic FMJ bullet, the irregular autopsies, New Orleans connection with Oswalt, and the Cuba crisis makes it so much more interesting.

With the 50th anniversary here, curious if anyone has a story not known to the general public. CNN special tonight was disappointing.

 

[HotMop]

JFK is dead.

p.s. My Dad grew up and knew Oswalt while he was growing up in New Orleans. Lived a block or two from him.

 

[Lee Corso]

I went over there to Dealey Plaza after our Ricky Williams/Texas/Cotton Bowl beatdown. Very strange place. That 6th Floor Museum was Da ****. Go if you have a chance.

From there, I think Oswald coulda popped off 3 rounds. That Warren Commission report was not too bad, but I can see why it has been said it is lacking.

Everyone here has an opinion about it.

 

[Maroonthirteen]

I have always thought

There was more than one shooter. However I read a few books on the assassination and even USSS SA Hill wrote in his book, he only heard shots from the rear (school book). So I now want to believe there was one shooter. But to me the video suggest two shooters.

However regardless, I will always believe Oswalt was what he said he was a patsy. It was a conspiracy in which included others than Oswalt. Who those others were and their agenda....who knows. JFK was disliked by Castro, Soviets and pro-Vietnam politicians.

 

[Maroonthirteen]

Yeah, I rode through there once too. What struck me was how small an area it was. The car had to be crawling to get off three rounds in that tight of space.

 

[o_1984Dawg]

6th Floor Museum really is excellent and they've done a great job of using the new iPod guides that have become popular.

 

[esplanade91]

JFK was hated by everyone in the south too. He's a big reason why the south went from democrat to republican around the same time. But every president has been hated by a large amount of certain demographics...

The most damning thing to me is all the stuff that happened in New Orleans immediately after. You had so many men that knew so much and had so many connections to each other. Nothing ever came of any of it, but it just appears that the FBI/CIA gave up.

I studied Robert McNamara a lot for a class I had at MSU, and I listened to probably 2 hours in total of voice recordings of him, JFK, and LBJ talking about pulling out of Vietnam. JFK and McNamara discussed the need to pull out of Vietnam immediately and each time LBJ threw a fit. I'm not into the whole black helicopter thing but for that reason I could see a CIA conspiracy to off him. CIA was involved in a bunch of dirty *** **** during the Vietnam War, especially drug related. JFK was bad for bid-ness.

 

[Center Z]

Who's got the brain of JFK

and what's it mean to us now

 

[dawgatUSM]

I went to Dallas before going to College Station a couple of weeks ago to visit some family, and I wanted to go see that place.

I am not a conspiracy theorist in anyway, but this is one event that is very easy to become a conspiracy theorist on. Of all of them I've heard, the Secret Service agent angle is the most plausible, but I still believe it was just one crazy Commie that wanted the president dead.

But yes, if you're in Dallas, the Sixth Floor Museum is a must. It's 16 bucks well spent. It's also self-guided so you don't have to worry about some nerd leading you through it. Looking out that window next to where Oswald shot from was pretty eerie.

 

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

I have a hard time believing that Lee Oswald made 3 shots in 5.2 seconds with that rifle and ultimately ended up killing the president. Also, it is much more likely that Oswald's first shot would have been the most accurate, in this case it was the 3rd. Once the gunshots began all of the conditions change. The car changes speed, and hysteria sets in throughout the crowd. If Oswald was a lone assassin, the third shot he made was one of the most clutch/lucky shots in the history of firearms. I do not believe every conspiracy theory out there (Oliver Stone, and Jim Garrison) but I think there is more to the story than what the Warren Report says.

Possibly a connection to Cuba, and the US government withheld some evidence to avoid WWIII? Just a thought.

 

[DerHntr]

I think he did the deed alone on that day but that he was connected with either the Russians or the mob and was talked into doing it.

 

[dawgatUSM]

According to this new book, Robert Kennedy stole the brain... not sure why... but people just throw stuff out there and hope it sticks.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/2...ggests-robert-kennedy-stolen-jfk-brain-after/

 

[Shamoan]

wanna see something gnarly? check out the jfk autopsy photos.

on a related note, my dad was riding in a car headed toward campus on the bridge near stombolis when it was announced on the radio that jfk had been assassinated.

 

[Truereb13.sixpack]

Three Shots

I have a hard time believing that Lee Oswald made 3 shots in 5.2 seconds with that rifle and ultimately ended up killing the president. Also, it is much more likely that Oswald's first shot would have been the most accurate, in this case it was the 3rd. Once the gunshots began all of the conditions change. The car changes speed, and hysteria sets in throughout the crowd. If Oswald was a lone assassin, the third shot he made was one of the most clutch/lucky shots in the history of firearms. I do not believe every conspiracy theory out there (Oliver Stone, and Jim Garrison) but I think there is more to the story than what the Warren Report says.

Possibly a connection to Cuba, and the US government withheld some evidence to avoid WWIII? Just a thought.

Making three shots in 5.2 seconds is hard enough to believe, but making the kill shot on the third is even harder to believe. No one has ever given a legit answer as to why the first two bullets were FMJ but the third was a hallow point. To many signs point to multiple shooters for me to believe he acted alone. I also find it hard to believe the kill shot came from behind him. Just about every angle of footage I have seen leads me to believe the head shot came from the front. Even the ER doctors pointed to the front of the head as the entrance wound. US government was involved in some way.

 

[patdog]

There USA picture of 6-month old patdog in the foreground & JFK in the background in the motorcade in San Antonio taken the day before he was shot. My dad told my mom he couldn't believe the security was so lax. He said, "anyone could just shoot him." The next day LHO did.

 

[coach66]

His back brace cost him his life. Had he been able to slide down in the seat

after the first shot he would have survived. I did not know about this until I saw it on one of the specials the other day. I have followed the assassination pretty closely all my life, I was four when it happened and I still remember watching it on TV. I tend to agree Oswalt did it but was put up to it and had some support but I also agree with other posters that he did some damn good shooting in 5.2 seconds.

With today's security it would have never happened and that's a shame whether you agree with the man's politics or not.

 

[Truereb13.sixpack]

Connolly

He would be the first to argue that there was more than the three shots reported in the Warren Files. He clearly said that the "neck shot" did not hit him. He turned to see Kennedy grab his throat and then Connolly himself was shot. One shot missed entirely via the Warren Report, one shot hit Kennedy in neck via Warren Report, one shot was kill shot via Warren report, and one shot hit Connolly via the man it hit. That is four shots and it still remains a mystery why two bullets recovered were FMJ and the "kill" bullet was a hollow point.

 

[patdog]

Agree that Oswalt did it but was hired by someone else. One thing people are forgetting is the he was an elite military marksman. It was some damn good shooting but it was relatively routine for him.

 

[coach66]

Understand, he was a marksman in the Marines but the speed at which he got those

shot's off was impressive but doable. His heart had to be racing 90 miles an hour too. The shot's themselves were not difficult with a high powered scope.

 

[TBone.sixpack]

He opposed the Federal Reserve. His brother was starting to crack down on the crime syndicates. LBJ wanted Vietnam for the war profiteers. Extreme Southern factions loathed him.

That is what makes his assassination such a puzzle. A number of parties could be behind it. But whoever did it had the full support of the CIA. The Oswald thing is weak as hell. We are still talking about it.

 

[was21]

Carlos Marcello, Santo Trafficante and Johnny Roselli were behind it. Oswald was the sole assassin.

 

[thekimmer]

The evidence overwhelmngly points to a lone gunman.......

And the firing position for that gunman being located on the sixth floor of the TSBD from the window underneath where the rifle was found. This conclusion has been reached by the vast majority of science based investigations, computer models, ballistics experts, researchers and even the mythbusters. The 'magic bullet' theory was also scientifically shown to be not so much magic but physics once the positions of the seats and the occupants in the car and trajectory of the bullet are understood. The evidence also strongly supports that Oswald was that lone gunman.

Now whether or not Oswald had any help or was working alone is a little murkier simply because of the circumstances of his death but I personally believe things point to his having acted alone.

On a historical note however, as tragic as this event in our history was for the country and the kennedy family, it was ironically an unquestionable boon to JFK's legacy as his actions and life are remembered, and revered, far, far, far more than they ever would have had he not been assassinated.

 

[Truereb13.sixpack]

Pristine Bullet

If the theory was proven with models, even against Connolly's own version of not being shot by same bullet, how was the bullet found in pristine condition that entered JFK, through a seat, and through Connolly?

And the firing position for that gunman being located on the sixth floor of the TSBD from the window underneath where the rifle was found. This conclusion has been reached by the vast majority of science based investigations, computer models, ballistics experts, researchers and even the mythbusters. The 'magic bullet' theory was also scientifically shown to be not so much magic but physics once the positions of the seats and the occupants in the car and trajectory of the bullet are understood. The evidence also strongly supports that Oswald was that lone gunman.

Now whether or not Oswald had any help or was working alone is a little murkier simply because of the circumstances of his death but I personally believe things point to his having acted alone.

On a historical note however, as tragic as this event in our history was for the country and the kennedy family, it was ironically an unquestionable boon to JFK's legacy as his actions and life are remembered, and revered, far, far, far more than they ever would have had he not been assassinated.

 

[coach66]

I believe the pristine bullet was a full metal jacket bullet that was designed

to stay intact and go through as many bodies and objects as possible to inflict as much damage as to as many combatants as possible. Most hunting bullets or hollow points are designed to kill one target and expand upon impact. I may be off point but I think this is what you are talking about.

 

[Truereb13.sixpack]

Pristine

No doubt about that, but many felt the bullet looked as though it had never been fired. With that being said, why were the first few bullets full metal but the kill shot was a hollow point. There are many things I have doubts about, but firing two full metal jacket bullets and one hollow point just does not make sense to me. I have never gotten into conspiracy theories with the exception of JFK.

 

[SkullCandy.sixpack]

I visited that 6th floor window, and looked out to the spot they said the limo traveled through during the shooting. I absolutely thought I could make the shot with 3 tries on a target moving 5-10 mph (speed disputed). Also the 5.2 seconds is deceptive, because they act as if the timer started and he had to crank in 3 rounds and fire during that time. The timer starts, however, with the first shot at 0.0 sec, so the reality is that you have over 5 seconds to get off 2 more rounds. Time yourself, and I'd bet 75% of you deer hunters will come away thinking you could have hit a pumpkin at that distance with 3 tries.

 

[ckDOG]

I've been reading this website recently

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

Pretty good stuff there. I'm leaning towards single shooter (no opinion on who) 3 shots (1 miss) from the book depository. Of course, there are so many unanswered questions that will never be answered, I understand the cause for so many theories. What irritates me is that there were many cameras there that day, including video being taken, and much of that info was never found (or acknowledged as being found).

 

[coach66]

Oswalt wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed. I've seen guys at deer camp mix

type bullets they are going to use. Doesn't make a lot of sense but they do it.

 

[Wooly17er]

There was no conspiracy...it was just unfortunate that Mr. Zapruder happened to be on scene with his video camera on that fateful day. So sad that things had to turn out that way, and such a tragic and unfortunate coincidence.

Undisputed video evidence here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-s0AuYHp_Y

 

[boatsandhoes]

I'm not an expert on bullet ballistics or what rounds do when they enter and exit a victim. I can't buy that the kill shot came from above and behind the President. Bullets make a smaller entry wounds, and a big exit wound. I can't see a bullet blowing off the back of the head from that same direction. I don't know what a FMJ or hollow points do on contact with a human skull. I have to believe the kill shot came from the front.

I was watching something on it on A&E the other day. I agree the throat shot that also hit Connelly was Oswald's bullet from above and behind. It showed that in that old cadillac used the rear seats are higher and wider than the front seats. the front seats are lower and have less width door to door so that throat shot and into connelly trajectory makes sense to me. The head wound shot on Kennedy does not.

 

[Jdog.sixpack]

If you have not seen it try to watch "JFK The Smoking Gun" that has been broadcast on the RELZ cable network. It will really make you think. If you assume that the facts presented are accurate you will come away with a new perspective.

 

[thekimmer]

Pristine bullet not so pristine.....

If the theory was proven with models, even against Connolly's own version of not being shot by same bullet, how was the bullet found in pristine condition that entered JFK, through a seat, and through Connolly?

The one photo of the so called magic bullet lends one to believe it was in much better shape than it actually was. Viewed on the end it is shown to have been significantly altered into an oblong configuration which the entry wound of connally just happened to be oblong as well.

 

[ShrubDog]

Black Ops unit from CIA that was assigned to kill Castro at that time did the hit on JFK. And George Bush was in control of that unit at the time via CIA. He was even seen in pictures at the scene and denies he was even there. Its not a conspiracy if its true.

A real sniper would have wanted the best shot possible. So that would be a front on shot to the head while the car was moving towards him (like one of the shots!) .

 

[thekimmer]

Hollow point?....

Since when was that was an established fact?

 

[thekimmer]

Have you seen the zapruder film and the autopsy photos?.....

I'm not an expert on bullet ballistics or what rounds do when they enter and exit a victim. I can't buy that the kill shot came from above and behind the President. Bullets make a smaller entry wounds, and a big exit wound. I can't see a bullet blowing off the back of the head from that same direction. I don't know what a FMJ or hollow points do on contact with a human skull. I have to believe the kill shot came from the front. .

The back of Kennedy's head was not 'blown off'. The photo's confirm the back of the head pretty much intact save a small entry wound with a large exit wound and skull flap located around the top of his right temple. Absolutely zero chance that wound was made by a shot from the front. Period. Based upon the orientation of the wound and the known position of his head when the fatal shot hit, the trajectory points right back to the 6th floor of the TSBD.

Link

 

[Philly Dawg]

Nova on PBS did a special on this very subject, i.e. the arguments that the nature of the wounds, movement of the head, etc. indicated that the shot was not fired by Oswalt based upon his position. They had balistics experts, computer models, and experiments using live rounds to show that these things do not always act as a layman would expect and that everything was consistent with a shot by Oswalt.

I'm sure there are those who think that the tests were rigged or that the show was biased.

 

[esplanade91]

And "the" film we have has many frames removed... It's just too many things to be coincidental. I don't think Zapruder was trying to cover anyone's tracks, but somehow he removed and destroyed the only frames that could disprove multiple shooters. He had a dream the night before handing the film over of the kill shot being played on loop in Times Square.

And to the point that his assassination, bluntly put, helped his legacy is entirely true. He is held in some kind of high regard nearly everywhere, yet we all know what kind of private life the guy lived.

 

[patdog]

I'm sure there are those who think that the tests were rigged or that the show was biased.

Of course there are. There is a large segment of the population that is going to believe what they want to believe no matter what the evidence shows.

 

[The Peeper]

I read yesterday pat that he was a marine "marksman" but had just squeaked by w/ 3 pnts to spare. 3 points may be a lot or may be a little, not sure how it is graded but that makes it even weirder he was able to make the shot(s) he did if he just squeaked by.

 

[Dawgbite]

I know a little about ballistics and have done quite a bit of research on wound channels. The public reason that all military bullets are FMJ full metal jackets, is that its more humane. As a hunter, you want one shot, one kill, therefore the use of hollow point or frangible ammo. The military justification for the use of FMJ is that if you shoot an enemy and kill him, you have eliminated one man from the battlefield. If you shoot him and wound him, he needs two men to carry him from the field of battle, a corpsman to treat him, a doctor to operate on him, nurses to tend to him and on and on. By wounding him, you remove multiple people brom the battlfield.
The military did studies after Vietnam while developing the sniper programs, snipers intend to kill not wound, and found that FMJ caused as much damage through hydraulic shock as hollow points did through actual tissue damage. A FMJ bullet will become unstable upon entry and begin to tumble or oscilate depleting more energy. The success of any bullet is the transfer of energy from the bullet to the target.
I would like to see a study to see if a FMJ will cause enough hydraulic shock to blow out the side of a human skull. Its unlikely that Oswald used a hollow point since it would most likely have been a reload and I doubt that many people were reloadind 6.5 Carcano in 1963. I tend to agree with the accidental discharge by the Secret Service Agent because the SS and all law enforcement agencies use hollow point ammo.