OT: rails to trails in Starkville

[bomanishus]

The railroad track that runs through the center of Starkville seems long dormant. I asked a business owner how often a train came through and he said in the two years he had been in that spot that not a single one that he could remember.

A rails to trails could be transformative for the city much like the multipurpose trails in Ridgeland have been.

Does anybody know if the track is dormant? If not, who owns it or what it would take to have it declared such?

There may be some talk about converting to trails as the previously mentioned business owner said he thought the guy from the Veranda (Flavor!) had made some inquiries about this. The owners of the Boardtown Bike Shop should be pushing this for all they've got because the trails are in their front space.

Thanks in advance.

 

[West Tn Dawg]

Columbus / Greenville RR

 

[starkvegasdawg]

I've lived in Starkville for five years and have yet to see a train using those tracks. If you look at the tracks where they go by the co-op and follow hwy 12 west out of town you can tell they have been in disuse for a while. Rails are rusted over and weeds growing up in the tracks.

 

[o_fredgarvin]

Who going to pay for the right of way acquisition? In Memphis, CN didn't donate what is now the Greenline. $4.5M had to be raised privately.

 

[KurtRambis4]

RR companies are not

very easy to deal with on ROW issues, either.

 

[patdog]

Don't know anything about those tracks, but if someone could get a rails to trails around Starkville that would be awesome. I've biked on the one in Hattiesburg and it's great. Great scenery and straight and level as could be. I didn't realize I was biking on a slight incline until I turned around and had to change into 2 gears higher.

 

[esplanade91]

Not to sound like a hoodrat, but I lived in the Cotton District my senior year and we used to buy 40's and drink under the bridge by the fire department. We walked the tracks there from my apartment from behind Glenn Hollow. Not only was the grass up to our knees in some parts, but there were a couple fallen trees that looked like they had been there for a while. Train hasn't been through there in years. That was a year ago, and I doubt much has changed.

 

[Lachien]

If I had to guess 40's weren't the only reason you were hanging out under a bridge.

Hoodrat, indeed. Sounds like good times #killinit

 

[Mining dawg]

The rails have been abandoned for several years. However the rr company stills "maintains" them. The county board of supervisors is constantly working to revive them however it will probably never happen and the rr company will probably never turn them loose.

 

[clintstone]

Columbus / Greenville RR

Kcs owns them.

 

[Trevors-cousin]

The branch line is owned by KCS (not CAGY). If KCS chose to abandon the line the first thing they would do is try to sell it to a shortline (such as CAGY) as an operating railroad. If that wasn't successful they would bid it out on a secondary market for scrap value less property value and file for an abandonment with the STB. Abandonment is a very lengthy legal process with many hurdles and opportunities for private and public entities to file an objection. An objection effectively kills the abandonment process and the railroad must "maintain" the property indefinitely. Should the abandonment be approved the railroad must remove any remaining physical property (ties, ballast, etc) before the property ownership can transfer or revert. There is generally not a deadline applied to when this must be accomplished. What happens after the abandonment can vary wildly and is based on how the land was acquired by the original railroad. Rails to trails projects were generally property given to the railroad by the state or city in return for building a railroad that generated tax revenue, jobs, industry, etc. Occasionally the railroad purchased the property outright and they retain ownership, but this is unusual. Typically the property reverts to the ownership that forfeited the property through eminent domain. Because most railroad right of ways are quite old the original ownership is usually traced to the current owner of the land platt or parcel that included the ROW when acquired by the railroad and the deed is transferred to him... in other words there will likely be many new property owners that would have to collectively agree to sell or donate their land for a rails to trails project. The abandonment process from start to finish generally takes 3-10 years.

 

[Lachien]

Wow. Some good info in this post (assuming your facts are straight, which I have no reason to believe otherwise).

Demoralizing, too.

 

[KurtRambis4]

This is a

"Best case" scenario

 

[The Peeper]

This is the easiest and lately most popular way:

http://www.railstotrails.org/ourWork/advocacy/policyAndFunding/railbanking.html

 

[EurekaDog]

Bit of trivia: In the 20th century...

the RR companies (combined) were the biggest landowners in the USA.

While I'm in favor of converting abandoned/unused RR beds to recreational trails, I don't like seeing tracks being abandoned. I fear that the loss of this infrastructure is going to hurt our country at some point.

 

[bomanishus]

Perfect time for City and University to Work Together.

This is the easiest and lately most popular way:

http://www.railstotrails.org/ourWork/advocacy/policyAndFunding/railbanking.html

A R2T would enhance the entire region to the benefit of both and chances are a coalition could get it done.

 

[FlabLoser]

A R2T would enhance the entire region to the benefit of both and chances are a coalition could get it done.

Has anybody run this by Parker Wiseman?

I'd love to see this happen.

 

[Buford T. Justice]

RR companies are not very easy to deal with on ROW issues, either.

This is the most accurate statement you will ever see on a message board. Railroad companies are hard to deal with on anything. They are by far the most difficult people I have ever dealt with.

 

[kired]

You'd have to get the counties involved along with Starkville and probably West Point. And I'm sure it would help to have MSU pushing as well. I assume you'd want to run from West Point to Starkville at a minimum. That's a solid 12 miles from the southwest side of West Point to the Montgomery / Lampkin intersection.

You've got to think about how to handle that intersection if you want to go further, and where it crosses hwy 12. Those would be two wide road crossings that currently are not elevated. If you continued down to Ackerman it would be about 35 miles total.

 

[Trevors-cousin]

Trail usage agreements are extremely rare and are only legal for non operating rail lines (which essentially means severed from the mainline network). My educated guess is that 90% of the rails to trails in the US were created after an abandonment. Abandonment are difficult for a number of reasons, mainly the value to local and state governments for attracting industry and the bargaining power for existing businesses with rail access (a rail spur is a powerful leverage when an industry is negotiating trucking rates, as an example). I don't disagree that railroads are notoriously difficult to work with, but keep in mind that if they have filed an abandonment they are the biggest proponent of surrendering ownership of the line. Refer to the acquisition of the CSX High Line by NYC last year for development as a city park. Without going into all the boring details... the process started in 1992 under Conrail ownership. When CSX purchased Conrail assets in 1998 they actively supported and assisted completing the transfer to New York City. 20 years and $90 million later it was successful. Old roadbeds are ideal for recreational trails, but the financial value to the railroad, governments, and private industries will always make the inception of new trails very limited and difficult.

 

[mjh94]

the Mayor wants it and has explored options..

and inquired about the RR ROW directly from the RR company. They said they have no interest in getting rid of the property.

A source inside the RR company doubts a train will ever run on those tracks again, but also doubts the RR will ever sell the property. The RR company higher ups are basically holding out hope that a large user comes in with the need of RR access somewhere along that line.

 

[mstateglfr]

While I'm in favor of converting abandoned/unused RR beds to recreational trails, I don't like seeing tracks being abandoned. I fear that the loss of this infrastructure is going to hurt our country at some point.

There is a valuable place for rail in our country's future trasportation plans.
But while it is a valuable place, its also a limited place.
Quite simple- rail does not fit most of the needs of our modern supply chain system which depends on speed.
- Manufacturing times are constantly pushed down and waiting for raw materials hurts. On hand inventory, for the last 6ish years, has shrunk overall and companies increasingly rely on JIT shipping for raw materials.
- On delivering finished goods, rail works for product that doesnt have to be delivered at a certain time. Rail works for bulk feed, paper goods, things like that. Its terrible for grocery receivers and anywhere that requires an appointment. Rail just isnt reliable enough.

 

[KurtRambis4]

Exactly

RR companies aren't exactly interested in giving up their land, regardless of it being "active" or not. In my experiences, they're extremely difficult to deal with in issues as simple as ROE for surveying, etc.

 

[drail14me]

Columbus / Greenville RR

Kansas City Southern owns the line.

I don't think a Rails to Trails would be in Starkville's best interest. The loss of a major transportation asset would hurt Starkville more than a trail would help.

There have been talks of getting the rail line back open. It's not abandoned, just "out of service". The only reason it's "Out of service" is because the last rail customer on the line, Borden, moved it's operation to get closer to a good milk supply.

Starkville has suffered economic development wise because of the status of the rail line. We missed out on a charcoal plant and an auto parts plant because of the lack of rail service. Starkville and Oktibbeha Co also invested millions of $$ in the Cornerstone Industrial Park and highly promoted the Park and it's rail access. There needs to be more talks between the City, County, Railroad and businesses on bringing customers in and re-opening the line.

 

[Trevors-cousin]

There is a valuable place for rail in our country's future trasportation plans.
But while it is a valuable place, its also a limited place.
Quite simple- rail does not fit most of the needs of our modern supply chain system which depends on speed.
- Manufacturing times are constantly pushed down and waiting for raw materials hurts. On hand inventory, for the last 6ish years, has shrunk overall and companies increasingly rely on JIT shipping for raw materials.
- On delivering finished goods, rail works for product that doesnt have to be delivered at a certain time. Rail works for bulk feed, paper goods, things like that. Its terrible for grocery receivers and anywhere that requires an appointment. Rail just isnt reliable enough.

This opinion is way off the mark. Produce/fresh fruit unit trains between Washington State and New York rival truck shipping times. Tropicana and US Sugar are primarily rail shippers. UPS is the biggest railroad customer in the country. Intermodal traffic is a merchandise and consumer goods rail market sector that consistently grew in revenue and carloads through the recession. Chemicals, coal, many "bulk products" can't be shipped any other way in quantities required to sustain manufacturing and energy infrastructures. Don't take my word for it... read year over year annual reports from any publicly traded railroad. Check financial forecasts if you need a Wall Street perspective. Look at the research from the overwhelming majority of transportation analysts in the country. Rail transport is efficient, comparatively affordable and safer than any other mode of domestic shipping. It's growing to support the US economy and plays an invaluable role in more supply chains than I could ever list in this message.

 

[deanbar]

http://www.bikewalkmississippi.org/BWMS/ contact the folks at Bike Walk MS...they have the knowledge to get the ball rolling...

 

[deanbar]

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There is no doubt that the effort to invest in biking and walking as a way to create more “Livable Communities” will greatly improve health, social and economic development in Mississippi. The Bike Summit is an intregral step in that direction

 

[KurtRambis4]

There are

a few inaccuracies in your post.

 

[deanbar]

just a cut n paste from the site to give a flavor of what they are trying to do...boardwalk bikes was a sponsor of the summit (which took place last Sept)..so would appear that they would be receptive to a rails to trails effort.

 

[mstateglfr]

I help oversee produce coming from WA, and N CA into the midwest via truck and rail.
Somehow, the ideal which you speak of hasnt fully translated to reality.

When a market is as large as produce, there will be examples to support what isnt the norm since its not an all or nothing thing.
IM simply isnt dynamic enough in what it can offer customers from field to plant. IM works for some, and works for some parts of the chain, yes. But it is a minor player overall for a reason.

When did QTG become primarily a rail shipper? I hope you mean one part of T's process is primarily rail because they are overall not primarily shipper, at least last time I saw.

This is WAY off the thread's topic, so Ill try to not continue.

 

[operch]

I relieved the regular station agent when he was on vacation back in the late 60's. The good old days of railroading.