OT: State of Penn State(If anyone cares about this stuff)

lions1995

Member
Oct 29, 2021
141
213
43
Was in on the town hall today and was disappointed to hear Neeli say five times that “she gets it”... about the budget crisis, about tuition hikes, about some of things that have to be done to right the ship. About how the ratings are wrong and that they have asked for a redo...

At one point when Sara was trying to explain tuition hikes, blah, blah, blah... Neeli chimes in that she “gets it” because all of the panelists have kids in school at PSU. My question to Neeli would have been “are you paying out of state tuition rates for your kids? Are the others paying instate rates?”. My guess is they are paying deep discounts if not receiving free tuition. But we should be happy because she “gets it”.

It’s clear this group still does not know how to communicate and are tone deaf. As usual questions were pre arranged and softballs.

As Daltrey sang.. “meet the new boss, same as the old boss.. won’t get fooled again.”

There’s a reason why she is here! And it ain’t for steering a major university out of a mess that the previous cabal created and made off like bandits.
Most if not all Universities provide a discounted rate to attend for dependents. I work at JHU here in Baltimore and they actually have a great program where they pay half of tuition anywhere up to half of what it costs to go to JHU. The problem is most aid that other Universities give goes against the tuition lessening the benefit at JHU. The benefits office tells you to try to get the University your child is attending to apply the aid to room & board if possible. All of the University of Maryland System schools provide free tuition for dependents. PSU provides a 75% discount which would be in-state tuition since if you work there, you live in State College.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bison13

lions1995

Member
Oct 29, 2021
141
213
43
It’s a free country. If students feel that they would rather go elsewhere because of “value”, so be it. There are a lot of less expensive options including community colleges they can attend for a cheap education. Apparently many of them still choose PSU over these less expensive options, and the numbers that make that choice are increasing. There are plenty of factors other than cost which obviously factor into choices students and their parents make, and many of us who graduated from PSU are wealthy as a result of our PSU degree, so cost is a non factor fortunately.

It does raise the question of whom the university should be serving, the children of the poor or lower middle class, or the more fortunate among us. I suspect there may be some correlation between the economic strata of the student body and their academic achievement, but those are dicey issues obviously for many reasons I’d rather not get into. I frankly don’t know if the pressure to increase DEI has an impact by admitting more students from lower performing high schools. You get into the whole question of what is the mission of a large State university, and whether that mission is influenced or even eroded by the lack of State financial support to enable the university to behave more like a private school serving a different clientele with different priorities, i.e., international students or out of state students, or even wealthy suburban students students for example. I’m not sure Penn State knows exactly where it fits in this matrix, or perhaps it has decided to try to change from one set of priorities to another?

BTW one of the cost savings which Barron allegedly takes credit for, and I have no way of knowing whether or not it’s true, is that under his leadership, the number of students who graduated in 4 years instead of 4.5 or 5 years increased substantially, and that this in fact lowered the cost of a Penn State degree. Anyone care to refute this?

Not going to refute anything you said, but looking at my transcript, you can knock off at least a year worth of college by getting rid of requirements that are related to the degree that you are trying to obtain and get rid of the whole "trying to create a well rounded student". If someone wants to learn about the History of Eastern Civilizations (one class I took to meet a requirement), there are a lot of ways they can go about that than having to take it just to meet a requirement to graduate. Graduating in 3 years, would lower the cost of college across the board at all Universities, but the fact that they won't do that shows they are there to get you money.
 

LionJim

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
8,430
11,461
113
I also live in Virginia and my daughter is a freshman this year. When looking at colleges she asked about going to PSU, mainly because she thought I would like her to go there. I told her if she wanted to go there she would have to come up with big scholarships or big loans because I an not going to consider paying what they want. (approx: $54,000 per year) She choose James Madison University. In a lot of ways it reminds me of PSU. In the mountains, small town in the middle of nowhere. She loves the place, I love the place and it is only (I say only) $20,000 a year. She can go nearly three years for the price of one at PSU. Both those figures are for tuition, room board and all the fees they add on.
JMU is a good school, good kids. Teach her to put the time into her studies and she’ll be fine. (It took me forever to learn this little truth, just saying.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bison13

Midnighter

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2021
7,743
12,517
113
Not going to refute anything you said, but looking at my transcript, you can knock off at least a year worth of college by getting rid of requirements that are related to the degree that you are trying to obtain and get rid of the whole "trying to create a well rounded student". If someone wants to learn about the History of Eastern Civilizations (one class I took to meet a requirement), there are a lot of ways they can go about that than having to take it just to meet a requirement to graduate. Graduating in 3 years, would lower the cost of college across the board at all Universities, but the fact that they won't do that shows they are there to get you money.

Not having 'well rounded' students is probably why I have to fire IT professionals who can't clearly articulate an idea in an email.
 

PSU12046

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2021
1,481
2,536
113
Thank for posting this, Big. I think deep down, most Alums still care what PSU is and becomes. As I see it, main issue is BOT doesn’t seem accountable to anyone. Who is it that says “ this isn’t ok and changes must be made”? Truly asking because I don’t know.
“So, thank you very much for this wonderful resolution. I’m moved. I think you know how much I love this institution and how much I appreciate what it has meant to me and my family for 33 glorious years. 33 years of a great love affair that I have had with this place in this town. I have no regrets. I’m only anxious to get on with some other things to make it even bigger and better, not in a sense of size, but in the context of quality and influence in this country and in some of the things that I think it’s important for a major institution of this size to do. So, thank you very much.”
 

Midnighter

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2021
7,743
12,517
113
That is the downside of the entire education system from preK through college, not because they didn't take a certain history class.

There are many who think liberal arts - to include critical thinking, logic, creative writing, etc. - is worthless. Maybe the 'subject' of a certain history class is not important, but reading, thinking critically, writing, and speaking about it is very worthwhile.

If you want to be outraged about public spending and education, check this out - private, Hasidic schools in NY have received over $1bn in government funding the past four years (with um, very, very poor results....which are almost certainly intentional):

 
  • Like
Reactions: LionJim

OuiRPSU

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2021
824
1,100
93
I think the reputation of PSU’s engineering and computer sciences curriculum remain very strong and attractive to foreign students from Asia, and the cost is generally not a factor for these students. It’s more a question of what level of foreign or out of state students does PSU want to admit in order to alleviate any shortfall in tuition revenue. Some state universities such as Delaware and West Virginia admit well over 50% from outside their own state.
Something like 62% of Alabama’s freshmen class I. 2021 were out of state (although that may be more of a reflection on the state educational system than UA).
 

TheBigUglies

Well-known member
Oct 26, 2021
862
1,287
93
That is the downside of the entire education system from preK through college, not because they didn't take a certain history class.
All rankings and class requirements aside, there are some PSU programs/degrees that set students up for success and have a solid network of alumni in the fields. It also depends on whether the kid wants to put in the work and be challenged. I know several students that went thru IST that have multiple offers on the table when they graduated and are excelling in their careers. Which isn't that the ultimate goal of a college education?

If I had to do it all over again, I would want to know which programs and which universities have the best placement services/programs/success rates for the graduates to get a job in their field of study. What connections does the college/degree program have with business and industry. IST brings in recruiters in the spring and fall to help students land the graduation required internship which ultimately gets them the job upon graduation. Is that worth the tuition money? I think so. Would have to compare it to other universities though. There are some programs that do diddly squat to help their students land jobs which is unfortunate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BriarwoodBash

Bison13

Well-known member
Oct 13, 2021
1,572
2,686
113
Most if not all Universities provide a discounted rate to attend for dependents. I work at JHU here in Baltimore and they actually have a great program where they pay half of tuition anywhere up to half of what it costs to go to JHU. The problem is most aid that other Universities give goes against the tuition lessening the benefit at JHU. The benefits office tells you to try to get the University your child is attending to apply the aid to room & board if possible. All of the University of Maryland System schools provide free tuition for dependents. PSU provides a 75% discount which would be in-state tuition since if you work there, you live in State College.
Had a family of students, 6 of them, whose father worked at JHU. They were flat out the best students I've ever had in 25 years. Their academics probably got them in there for free but glad JHU does so much for its people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LionJim

LionJim

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
8,430
11,461
113
There are many who think liberal arts - to include critical thinking, logic, creative writing, etc. - is worthless. Maybe the 'subject' of a certain history class is not important, but reading, thinking critically, writing, and speaking about it is very worthwhile.

If you want to be outraged about public spending and education, check this out - private, Hasidic schools in NY have received over $1bn in government funding the past four years (with um, very, very poor results....which are almost certainly intentional):

The “very poor results” were that every last student failed the state examination.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Midnighter

91Joe95

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2021
2,843
4,059
113
Do you really think Neeli Is going to call out her bosses publicly? That isn’t wise.

But she did. Her critique of the problems facing the university were blistering. Bringing the bot up simply associates them with the problem. If she wants to play politician then her best move was to not mention them. She said members of upper management didn't understand the problem, she should have left it at that, maybe even stated the problem is complex and she wasn't there to cast blame but to solve the problem. She needs to get away from the obviously contradictory statements.
 

leinbacker

Well-known member
Oct 13, 2021
1,656
2,682
113
But she did. Her critique of the problems facing the university were blistering. Bringing the bot up simply associates them with the problem. If she wants to play politician then her best move was to not mention them. She said members of upper management didn't understand the problem, she should have left it at that, maybe even stated the problem is complex and she wasn't there to cast blame but to solve the problem. She needs to get away from the obviously contradictory statements.

Maybe she'll pull an Elon Musk to get out of her PSU deal.
 

Midnighter

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2021
7,743
12,517
113
Maybe she'll pull an Elon Musk to get out of her PSU deal.

Both seem to have an issue with bots….

Season 1 Laughing GIF by Game of Thrones
 

GrimReaper

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
5,563
7,572
113
There are many who think liberal arts - to include critical thinking, logic, creative writing, etc. - is worthless. Maybe the 'subject' of a certain history class is not important, but reading, thinking critically, writing, and speaking about it is very worthwhile.

If you want to be outraged about public spending and education, check this out - private, Hasidic schools in NY have received over $1bn in government funding the past four years (with um, very, very poor results....which are almost certainly intentional):

FIFY.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Midnighter

OaktonDave

Active member
Oct 12, 2021
136
339
63
Not having 'well rounded' students is probably why I have to fire IT professionals who can't clearly articulate an idea in an email.
I'm with you. Moreover, I'm not buying that the cost of education significantly outpacing inflation is a product of students having to take courses well outside their major to graduate. The requirements existed long before the cost explosion. I'm thinking a portion of the cost increase has more to do with increased expenditures in areas that, while justified to a degree, have grown far more than needed. To use an example from the K-12 world, the school district I attended as a kid has 1/3 fewer students than it had when I graduated. It has gone from having six elementary schools to three with plans to close at least one more. While this is happening, the administrative staff has more than doubled, including the front office staff of the high school. If there are fewer students and fewer buildings, why the growth in support staff? Why does it take twice as many people to manage a high school student body of 800 than was required to manage a student body of 1200? No answer is offered. I wouldn't argue that some of the added positions add value. At the same time, my experience working in the federal government tells me that many of them don't and justify their existence by creating work for others that they then evaluate while doing nothing that actually supports the mission - education of students.
 
Last edited:

JakkL

Member
Oct 12, 2021
226
241
43
To me the main issues are 3 things. Continuously building new stuff, lack of state funding and credit creep (they keep adding more classes to programs).
 

PSU73

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
474
806
93
National rankings. Reputation. Perceived.
The whole thing with the firing of Paterno, the Sandusky affair, the Freed Report
Outside of the state of PA people who are generally unfamiliar with Penn State other than name, and sports, form opinions based on things like Sandusky news and the associated piling on by the NCAA, the Big10, Freeh (all of which hurt all Penn Staters), and any other national news like fraternity hazing/death, and Justine Gross recently. I don't think these can be underestimated when some form their opinions/rankings.
 

PSU12046

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2021
1,481
2,536
113
National rankings. Reputation. Perceived.

Outside of the state of PA people who are generally unfamiliar with Penn State other than name, and sports, form opinions based on things like Sandusky news and the associated piling on by the NCAA, the Big10, Freeh (all of which hurt all Penn Staters), and any other national news like fraternity hazing/death, and Justine Gross recently. I don't think these can be underestimated when some form their opinions/rankings.
I agree. But, PSU's answer to the issues is just jack up tuition. I just don't think that is a good business model.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bison13

DELion

Active member
Oct 21, 2021
219
421
63
Academia in general (and PSU in particular) has been insulated from real economic forces for far too long. You can't keep inflating your offering at multiples of the overall economy inflation/growth rate year after year and not have to pay the piper eventually. It's about time that academicians get a taste of the continual downsizings and restructurings the corporate world has been facing for at least the last 30 years. Some employees are uncomfortable? Too bad. I worked for a large corporation that was a serial restructurer. My job was never safe. Even high performers were subject to the axe if they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Capitalism can sometimes be ruthless.

PSU being the highest cost / lowest value proposition in the B1G is an embarrassment. The University's record in scholarship support is equally pitiful. The BOT has been asleep at the wheel for a generation. Major changes are needed. I hope Neeli has the guts to drive forward with them. While use of external consultants might not be very palatable, they can serve a useful role in providing unbiased data and recommendations to return Penn State to a competitive stance vis-a-vis peer institutions. She will have to walk a fine line. I for one am pulling for her.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bison13

MacNit

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
951
992
93
My guess is that they could stop educating people (just sit in class and stare at old game clips) and hike tuition up to $200K per year, but as long as they renamed the school to Joe Paterno University and had shrines dedicated to him on every corner (including making that new museum the Museum o' Joe Paterno), many of the posters here would think it's the greatest place on earth and would send their kids/grandkids there without hesitation.
If Joe were still around, the University would not be in the state of decline it is now. So there is that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bison13

BriarwoodBash

Member
Oct 12, 2021
144
216
43
All rankings and class requirements aside, there are some PSU programs/degrees that set students up for success and have a solid network of alumni in the fields. It also depends on whether the kid wants to put in the work and be challenged. I know several students that went thru IST that have multiple offers on the table when they graduated and are excelling in their careers. Which isn't that the ultimate goal of a college education?

If I had to do it all over again, I would want to know which programs and which universities have the best placement services/programs/success rates for the graduates to get a job in their field of study. What connections does the college/degree program have with business and industry. IST brings in recruiters in the spring and fall to help students land the graduation required internship which ultimately gets them the job upon graduation. Is that worth the tuition money? I think so. Would have to compare it to other universities though. There are some programs that do diddly squat to help their students land jobs which is unfortunate.
You are spot on with this. My son graduated from IST (SHC) and had a job upon graduation as did almost all his IST friends. What you describe should be the norm, given our AA size.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheBigUglies

republion

Active member
Oct 29, 2021
162
284
63
My daughter is a HS senior in NC and has PSU at the top of her list. She is in her school’s IB program and has a 4.5GPA. I always hated UNC, but when it comes to value, I hope to be wearing a “Dad of a Tarheel” shirt next year. Otherwise, she’ll probably be going even further south if she wants the traditional big school experience. Although she grew up going to Penn State games and feels an affinity to PSU, unless they offer her some major scholarship money (which they won’t), she will be going elsewhere. Penn State is more and more becoming just a football team I pull for. Nothing else.
See y’all in Auburn!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nitt1300

Nitt1300

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
4,014
7,497
113
I actively advised my granddaughter not to keep Penn State on her shortlist unless there was some compelling reason to do so (there wasn't).
 

Global Fan

Active member
Oct 5, 2021
197
406
63
So apparently there was a town hall today with the new Pres. I have heard people came out of it thoroughly frustrated and worrying about their jobs because it was all about budget deficit and things are not well within the ivory towers. Employee retention and morale are at an all time low according to the Pres(I did not see that mentioned in the article but heard from many that the pres made that statement). There was a mention of layoffs and restructuring in the meeting but the article seems to sugar coat that saying that someone said there will not be mass layoffs.

This line is especially troubling to me:

"This week, U.S. News & World Report rated Penn State the 207th-best school for value out of 223 national universities. It ranked last among all Big Ten institutions."

https://www.statecollege.com/penn-state-officials-talk-budget-deficit-tuition-increases-during-virtual-town halls/

Only game in town

Another point of view from CNN..........
"According to folklore (and the legendary author Neil Gaiman), the con man and riverboat gambler Canada Bill Jones was playing cards in Cairo, Illinois, one day, when a buddy came up to him and pulled him aside to say, “Don’t you know this game is crooked?” Canada Bill replied, “I know it’s crooked, but it’s the only game in town. That’s how I felt when news broke that Columbia University acknowledged it had been submitting inaccurate data to US News and World Report for their annual college rankings. This revelation was brought to light by a math professor at the university, who found discrepancies between the data Columbia submitted for the ranking and reality. Since he made these discrepancies public, Columbia’s ranking has dropped from #2 to #18."
 

Midnighter

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2021
7,743
12,517
113
Only game in town

Another point of view from CNN..........
"According to folklore (and the legendary author Neil Gaiman), the con man and riverboat gambler Canada Bill Jones was playing cards in Cairo, Illinois, one day, when a buddy came up to him and pulled him aside to say, “Don’t you know this game is crooked?” Canada Bill replied, “I know it’s crooked, but it’s the only game in town. That’s how I felt when news broke that Columbia University acknowledged it had been submitting inaccurate data to US News and World Report for their annual college rankings. This revelation was brought to light by a math professor at the university, who found discrepancies between the data Columbia submitted for the ranking and reality. Since he made these discrepancies public, Columbia’s ranking has dropped from #2 to #18."

+1 for Neil Gaiman mention.
 

BobPSU92

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
13,882
21,349
113
Only game in town

Another point of view from CNN..........
"According to folklore (and the legendary author Neil Gaiman), the con man and riverboat gambler Canada Bill Jones was playing cards in Cairo, Illinois, one day, when a buddy came up to him and pulled him aside to say, “Don’t you know this game is crooked?” Canada Bill replied, “I know it’s crooked, but it’s the only game in town. That’s how I felt when news broke that Columbia University acknowledged it had been submitting inaccurate data to US News and World Report for their annual college rankings. This revelation was brought to light by a math professor at the university, who found discrepancies between the data Columbia submitted for the ranking and reality. Since he made these discrepancies public, Columbia’s ranking has dropped from #2 to #18."

Obviously Penn State needs to submit “better“ data. 😏