OT: Toyota engine recall

[DJ Spanky]

I had a friend run into this a few weeks ago, and this article just popped up in my feed:

Toyota's bulletproof reputation is hurt by an unfixable defect

In a recent announcement, Toyota said that over 102,000 Tundra pickup trucks and Lexus LX SUVs spanning the 2022 and 2023 model years will be eligible for a free engine replacement as part of a recall that was first announced in May 2024.

That's a lot of engines to replace!

According to NHTSA documents, the automaker initiated the recall due to metal debris that had not been properly cleaned out of the engines when they were manufactured. As per Toyota, metal debris in the motor can lead to major engine problems like engine knocking, engines running rough, engines not starting, or losing power while driving, which can increase the risk of a crash at higher speeds.

They're really minimizing the impact here: metal debris in the engine, whether it's shaving, fillings, whatever, can shred an engine from inside. The article is absolutely right about the whole engine needing to be replaced, even if an engine isn't damaged there's no way you could ensure at this point that what's in the engine can be flushed out and won't cause problems down the road.

 

[Crazed_RU]

I blame Covid.

 

[LETSGORU91_]

I blame Covid.

That was of Chinese origin, not from Japan.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

Toyota keeps taking hits.

 

[MADHAT1]

That was of Chinese origin, not from Japan.

China caused the Tesla recall just announced
The recall affects 2021-2024 Model 3, Model S, Model X, and 2020-2024 Model Y vehicles. The vehicles, Tesla said, were equipped with a hood latch produced in China by Magna Closures Co Ltd.

 

[Retired711]

I realize this is not nearly at the same level, but my Prius (from 2010, the first year of Generation 3) leaked enough oil starting at 90,000 miles that I had to top it every thousand miles. The problem was unfixable without spending thousands of dollars. There are a number of reasons I chose another manufacturer when it came time to replace the car, and this was one of them.

 

[DJ Spanky]

I realize this is not nearly at the same level, but my Prius (from 2010, the first year of Generation 3) leaked enough oil starting at 90,000 miles that I had to top it every thousand miles. The problem was unfixable without spending thousands of dollars.

That's pretty bad - but thousands of dollars would probably buy you far more oil than you'd ever need. Do you remember what the problem was? Bad gaskets, seals, etc.? Problem with engine tolerances? .... man I can think of so many things which could cause that if they screwed up manufacturing the engine.

 

[ashokan]

I blame Covid.

Experts were warning about buying cars from 2020-22 because the lockdowns caused a lot of smaller crews, part shortages and production issues - including chips that weren't available and work-arounds were made on the fly.

 

[Retired711]

That's pretty bad - but thousands of dollars would probably buy you far more oil than you'd ever need. Do you remember what the problem was? Bad gaskets, seals, etc.? Problem with engine tolerances? .... man I can think of so many things which could cause that if they screwed up manufacturing the engine.

I don't know if I asked -- when I was told the estimate was $2500, I just said "forget it." The problem was widespread on that year's Priuses. My usual rule is not to buy a model in its first year, and I should have followed that rule in this case. But I liked the idea of a hybrid and the Prius was fashionable then. I probably would have held onto the car if it had not been declared a total loss in December, but I never really liked it -- the visibility was poor and I didn't think the car handled or braked well. (I understand braking is an issue on many hybrids because of the transition between regenerative and friction braking.)

 

[rurichdog]

Toyota keeps taking hits.

Toyota is finally accepting that sometimes their build quality is subpar and they need to make their customers whole when it happens. I owned a Camry for over a decade, loved that car. But for all the Toyota class-leading build quality, it had its share of issues. When I'd take it to the dealer they'd tell me "there's a TSB for it but not a recall" so it was on me to cover the cost. Headliner was one. Axles were another. It started misfiring at 171,000 miles which all things considered was pretty damn good, but I'd had enough.

 

[rucoe89]

I had a friend run into this a few weeks ago, and this article just popped up in my feed:

Toyota's bulletproof reputation is hurt by an unfixable defect



That's a lot of engines to replace!



They're really minimizing the impact here: metal debris in the engine, whether it's shaving, fillings, whatever, can shred an engine from inside. The article is absolutely right about the whole engine needing to be replaced, even if an engine isn't damaged there's no way you could ensure at this point that what's in the engine can be flushed out and won't cause problems down the road.

A lot of manufacturing has been going the way of software development --- speed to market with good enough and fix later hoping the financial impact is recoverable if you reach that point. Until consumers dictate otherwise with their pocketbooks, we may see more of this.

 

[Retired711]

Toyota is finally accepting that sometimes their build quality is subpar and they need to make their customers whole when it happens. I owned a Camry for over a decade, loved that car. But for all the Toyota class-leading build quality, it had its share of issues. When I'd take it to the dealer they'd tell me "there's a TSB for it but not a recall" so it was on me to cover the cost. Headliner was one. Axles were another. It started misfiring at 171,000 miles which all things considered was pretty damn good, but I'd had enough.

I had a 1998 Toyota Camry that I bought new. It was mechanically OK. But as time went on, it became harder and harder to use the keys to start the car or to lock or unlock the doors. The Toyota dealer could not solve this problem and so I had to trade it in at 130,000 miles. It's a shame because that car was part of one of the better Camry generations.

 

[Retired711]

Toyota is finally accepting that sometimes their build quality is subpar and they need to make their customers whole when it happens. I owned a Camry for over a decade, loved that car. But for all the Toyota class-leading build quality, it had its share of issues. When I'd take it to the dealer they'd tell me "there's a TSB for it but not a recall" so it was on me to cover the cost. Headliner was one. Axles were another. It started misfiring at 171,000 miles which all things considered was pretty damn good, but I'd had enough.

As I understand it, Toyota used to build all its cars in Japan. Could part of the problem be its development of manufacturing facilities elsewhere?

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

As I understand it, Toyota used to build all its cars in Japan. Could part of the problem be its development of manufacturing facilities elsewhere?

No. Doubtful. Toyota has been building cars in the US for decades.

 

[MADHAT1]

No. Doubtful. Toyota has been building cars in the US for decades.

outsourcing might be the problem, Toyota seems to use more than one suppler for parts I read :
>It might source a steering wheel for one model family exclusively from one supplier and a steering wheel for another exclusively from a second supplier. The two suppliers would then compete constantly for the next design as new models enter production, but they would compete more on innovation and capabilities than on price. <

https://hbr.org/2022/11/what-really-makes-toyotas-production-system-resilient

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

outsourcing might be the problem, Toyota seems to use more than one suppler for parts I read :
>It might source a steering wheel for one model family exclusively from one supplier and a steering wheel for another exclusively from a second supplier. The two suppliers would then compete constantly for the next design as new models enter production, but they would compete more on innovation and capabilities than on price. <

https://hbr.org/2022/11/what-really-makes-toyotas-production-system-resilient

Thanks for posting - informative read.

 

[Section124]

Been a fan of Toyota's but they have their flaws like all the other car companies. For example, my last Highland's power rear hatch stopped working. They wanted $3K to fix. A year later my friend tells me there is a recall on them. Got it fixed for free. My wife's Lexus RX350 is starting to do the same thing and the dealer told me there are no recalls. It works about 50% of the time but I am not fixing it because there will be a recall at some point. Very annoying.

 

[RW90]

Sounds a lot like the engine recall Hyundai had on their Sonatas. We had our engine replaced at no cost years ago for a similar issue.

 

[iReC89]

This doesn't worry me about the brand. They are taking care of it. It appears to be an isolated manufacturing process lapse, and I would bet that a relatively small percentage of the recalled motors are actually bad. Once disassembled, inspected and remanufactured, most of the recalled parts will probably go back into other cars.

Subaru replaced my foresters short block, but it was a pain to get them to admit there was an issue, and a certain level of the oil loss problem was considered "normal".

 

[RUShea]

Toyota keeps taking hits.

Wonderful. I work for them on digital properties. I'm sure this will turn into some sort of website emergency for me.

 

[iReC89]

Wonderful. I work for them on digital properties. I'm sure this will turn into some sort of website emergency for me.

The press is just catching up now but the actual recall went out May 30th. Hate those emergencies.

 

[CERU00]

This doesn't worry me about the brand. They are taking care of it. It appears to be an isolated manufacturing process lapse, and I would bet that a relatively small percentage of the recalled motors are actually bad. Once disassembled, inspected and remanufactured, most of the recalled parts will probably go back into other cars.

Subaru replaced my foresters short block, but it was a pain to get them to admit there was an issue, and a certain level of the oil loss problem was considered "normal".

Yeah, apparently Subarus are not nearly as great as they're made out to be. My wife's Outback had multiple engine leaks on the primary gaskets at 60,000 miles. They replaced the seal under warranty but that reveals a design flaw as ive discovered it's not an uncommon issue on subarus. I've been a GM exclusive owner prior and never saw anything like that.

 

[iReC89]

Yeah, apparently Subarus are not nearly as great as they're made out to be. My wife's Outback had multiple engine leaks on the primary gaskets at 60,000 miles. They replaced the seal under warranty but that reveals a design flaw as ive discovered it's not an uncommon issue on subarus. I've been a GM exclusive owner prior and never saw anything like that.

Subaru is coming out with a hybrid forester next spring that will use Toyota electric engines and batteries. Hopefully they will have solved the oil issue by then. Thinking about waiting for it.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

As I understand it, Toyota used to build all its cars in Japan. Could part of the problem be its development of manufacturing facilities elsewhere?

First thing that popped into my mind. Japanese workers are probably very conscientious.. but elsewhere? After CoVid? Where were those engines built.. or if it were teh responsibility of the assembly location.. where were they assembled.

 

[S_Janowski]

Sounds a lot like the engine recall Hyundai had on their Sonatas. We had our engine replaced at no cost years ago for a similar issue.

Hyundai / Kia’s have had major manufacturing issues. I had the same engine issue with my Elantra as well.

My engine was replaced at 100K and the car was never the same. Every 3 months or so I had a different sensor that needed to be replaced. The new engine wasn’t compatible with the original parts.

After about the 4th time of taking it to the mechanic I just traded it in.

My wife’s catalytic convertor got clogged on her 6 year old Tuscon and it would have been $3K to replace (traded that that in pennies)

My parents Sonata was just stolen out of their driveway in July.

I’ll never buy a Hyundai again.

 

[DJ Spanky]

My parents Sonata was just stolen out of their driveway in July.

I’ll never buy a Hyundai again.

Wasn't there something about how easy these cars were to steal?

 

[S_Janowski]

Wasn't there something about how easy these cars were to steal?

Yep - they can be stolen in about a minute with a usb. The anti theft upgrade by Hyundai doesn’t work either.

 

[mildone_rivals]

Spend enough time in various car forums and you learn that no brand is without the occasional design flaw, or supplier component flaw, or manufacturing flaw. From the priciest to the cheapest brands.

IMO, it’s the decades-long reliability combined with the brand’s commitment to making things right that make the difference. An occasional serious issue sucks for those affected, but isn’t necessarily indicative of a bad brand.

 

[RW90]

Yep - they can be stolen in about a minute with a usb. The anti theft upgrade by Hyundai doesn’t work either.

Supposedly it's a software update which seems rather odd. We never brought ours in thinking it's doubtful anyone would really seek to steal it.

Before that software update was made available to the public, we had the car in the dealership for some other service once and they gave us a steering wheel locking device to deter would-be car thefts.

 

[fsg2_rivals]

Spend enough time in various car forums and you learn that no brand is without the occasional design flaw, or supplier component flaw, or manufacturing flaw. From the priciest to the cheapest brands.

IMO, it’s the decades-long reliability combined with the brand’s commitment to making things right that make the difference. An occasional serious issue sucks for those affected, but isn’t necessarily indicative of a bad brand.

Yeah, I realize I'm a bit of a Toyota fanboy, but not sure how this is a hit against them. They identified it quickly and are straight replacing the engines. Can't ask for much more, short of perfection.

 

[Section124]

Yeah, I realize I'm a bit of a Toyota fanboy, but not sure how this is a hit against them. They identified it quickly and are straight replacing the engines. Can't ask for much more, short of perfection.

Well in my case it was years before Toyota finally did the recall. If you went into the Toyota forums you would have seen the issue was going on for 5+ years before they did anything. I would still buy one but I am not as confident in their product as I used to be.

That being said all my Toyota/Lexus vehicles have been pretty much just regular maintenance (I usually keep at least 10 years). Can't ask for more than that.

 

[RUShea]

Random question for you Toyota/Lexus owners. Do y'all have user accounts on the Toyota and/or Lexus websites? The Toyota app?
Sorry for the weird question. Just my own self-serving user survey/testing.

 

[fsg2_rivals]

Well in my case it was years before Toyota finally did the recall. If you went into the Toyota forums you would have seen the issue was going on for 5+ years before they did anything. I would still buy one but I am not as confident in their product as I used to be.

That being said all my Toyota/Lexus vehicles have been pretty much just regular maintenance (I usually keep at least 10 years). Can't ask for more than that.

That's fair.

Out of curiosity, what exactly went wrong? Was it the power locks or something else on the tailgate?

I was surprised my Tundra power-locking tailgate didn't work but later realized that's because it doesn't have one

(not at all implying that's applicable to your situation, in which it stopped working, just an aside)

 

[fsg2_rivals]

Random question for you Toyota/Lexus owners. Do y'all have user accounts on the Toyota and/or Lexus websites? The Toyota app?
Sorry for the weird question. Just my own self-serving user survey/testing.

No account. I do browse through third-party Tundra and Tacoma forums pretty regularly when I run into a question but haven't yet joined.

 

[Section124]

That's fair.

Out of curiosity, what exactly went wrong? Was it the power locks or something else on the tailgate?

I was surprised my Tundra power-locking tailgate didn't work but later realized that's because it doesn't have one

(not at all implying that's applicable to your situation, in which it stopped working, just an aside)

I forget the exact cause, but when you hit the button or tried to use the remote to open / close, it would not work. The fix required the whole rear hatch to be replaced (so it was a big deal)...not just an actuator or motor. I am afraid the Lexus is next.