and outscored in the paint 38-24. Herard/Kegler are gonna have to get it real soon and Holman needs to really start showing he's got it down, consistently.
Outrebounded 43-26
- Thread starter KurtRambis4
- Start date
um, Two in a row? How many games have we played this season? I've seen enough to be worried. Not sure what rainbow or sunshine everyone is looking through. We are awful. 17ing Awful.
Herrard needs to work on a lot; from footwork and hand skills to off the ball positioning to boxing out.
Kegler has to accept his role. Most of the time he's in the game hes playing the 4....but when he's posted up at the 3pt line it hurts on rebounds....especially on nites like tonite when the team was collectively cold from long.
Kegler has to accept his role. Most of the time he's in the game hes playing the 4....but when he's posted up at the 3pt line it hurts on rebounds....especially on nites like tonite when the team was collectively cold from long.
People don't want to hear this Lettuce. I had the audacity to suggest that we might not be very good even in a weak SEC and the masses came at me with torches and pitchforks.
Would you agree there is a distinction between us being bad right now and us just being a bad team?
Ray's teams were bad. That was their ceiling. While this team is not very good right now, we have so much room for improvement. If we are the same at the end of the season I'll be concerned. I think this team just needs experience and improvement will come and with that comes some growing pains.
Ray's teams were bad. That was their ceiling. While this team is not very good right now, we have so much room for improvement. If we are the same at the end of the season I'll be concerned. I think this team just needs experience and improvement will come and with that comes some growing pains.
This and accepting that is your role to make the team successful. They need to watch the video someone posted previously this week of Jerome Bettis talking about personal success and team success. Kegler is a great example. If he would accept that at this time we need him to play the 4 and let the team grow and get some more bigs and THEN he can show his abilities to play a 3, then he and the team would be more successful.
But he is not the only one that needs to rebound better. Right now Q is the only one I have seen try to go get a rebound.
At the same time, our backcourt needs to get back quicker on defense. We are giving up way too many transition baskets.
Lastly, we need to have some patience while they learn this. Howland mentioned yesterday to the commentators before the game that his entire job right now is teaching and that leaves little time for x and o coaching. His comments were that it seemed like every moment with this team was a teaching opportunity.
I imagine his patience will start to wane and we will see less and less rotation of players and more time for those that show they are listening to his teaching points. I don't think he wants to spend the entire season as a teacher when he is being paid to be a coach.
I think we can improve, but the disagreement is our floor and ceiling. First consider our OOC schedule which was horrible, and we lost three times and looked bad in winning a few others. I didn't see much improvement through November and December, so that's where I was heading into league play. The SEC is a bad league, so there was reason for optimism as far as winning some games. Last night was just one game, but it was one of our best opportunities to register a win, and we weren't up to the task. Optimism fading. I've said that I thought our floor is five, although that seems tenuous now. I also said think our ceiling is 9, which seems preposterous now after losing to Bama at home. My prediction was 7, but included a win last night. Contrast that with all the people projecting 9, 10 or 11 wins. I just don't see it. Didn't see it before last night, sure don't see it now. Sure, we might improve between now and March. But if we improve, you have to at least allow for the possibility that others will improve too. Yes, we are the youngest team in the country. I don't think that means we are assured of improving the most.
Herard...
16.0 mins/game 36.8 fg% 4.4 reb 0.3 blk 0.1 steal 1.6 pts
Datcher...
8.3 mins/game 40.0 fg%. 2.3 reb 0.8 blk 0.2 steal 1.0 pts
Seems pretty equal
^This guy gets it
I completely agree that we aren't a good team, right now. However, this team has a ton of raw talent, that if they are willing to be coached, can produce great results in the future.
Ray's teams just flat out sucked. They weren't getting there if Jesus Christ was their coach and they had the attitude of Ali.
I completely agree that we aren't a good team, right now. However, this team has a ton of raw talent, that if they are willing to be coached, can produce great results in the future.
Ray's teams just flat out sucked. They weren't getting there if Jesus Christ was their coach and they had the attitude of Ali.
You mean when you suggested that 7 wins was prettymuch the ceiling -- then in a later thread predicted those 7 wins? Now 9 wins is the ceiling -- but 7 was too optimistic? I'm getting a bit lost in all of that.
You're right -- you know exactly what these players are 13 games into their careers. Varnado, Rhodes, Holman, et al should go ahead and quit now. The only thing I agree on is that Herard isn't as far along as he was supposed to be. He's a questionmark at this point. Certainly not a closed book.
No amount of watching Kentucky/Duke basketball on ESPN is going to make you a better analyst of a raw, in all likelihood 4 year MSU player. Especially one that would be playing sparingly, if at all, through this phase of his career once we have an established team of upperclassmen. If he still sucks at the end of the season and more particularly the start of next season -- then maybe your statement would be valid. As of now, like your whole analysis, even if it ends up being true -- it's premature.
You're right -- you know exactly what these players are 13 games into their careers. Varnado, Rhodes, Holman, et al should go ahead and quit now. The only thing I agree on is that Herard isn't as far along as he was supposed to be. He's a questionmark at this point. Certainly not a closed book.
No amount of watching Kentucky/Duke basketball on ESPN is going to make you a better analyst of a raw, in all likelihood 4 year MSU player. Especially one that would be playing sparingly, if at all, through this phase of his career once we have an established team of upperclassmen. If he still sucks at the end of the season and more particularly the start of next season -- then maybe your statement would be valid. As of now, like your whole analysis, even if it ends up being true -- it's premature.
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Thinking back I don't remember seeing Datcher play last night, he is ahead of Herard. Herard is very slow and not coordinated at this point.
Those are all fair points. I was more referring to their ceiling in general rather than what the wins and losses this year will be. As you have said, the SEC isn't a top notch league right now so I have no clue what our W-L record will be. I fully expect we will win some we don't think we will and we will also have some head scratchers like last night. One thing I'm not worried about is our shooting. I know we couldn't hit water if we fell off a boat last night but this team has some capable shooters.
He's the 4* and datcher is the 3*?** I guess that herard has the higher ceiling. In a throwaway year though, I'd like to see herard outplay datcher to be sure and that hasn't happened so far. Whatever though, I realize howland knows more than myself
Herard looked terrible for the most part yesterday. I'll give him credit for making all of his free throws (went 4-4 after being 43% at the line coming in), but everything else was really unimpressive.
Obviously there's something there. He wouldn't have gotten offers from Kansas and Purdue if there wasn't. But he needs a lot of work.
There is little difference in Herard and Datcher right now, but I think Howland sees Herard as the guy with the higher ceiling. Still think Datcher should play at least a little, and he probably will most games.
We have to get more consistent offense from Holman. He didn't look good either, although he's obviously done some very good things so far for us.
Obviously there's something there. He wouldn't have gotten offers from Kansas and Purdue if there wasn't. But he needs a lot of work.
There is little difference in Herard and Datcher right now, but I think Howland sees Herard as the guy with the higher ceiling. Still think Datcher should play at least a little, and he probably will most games.
We have to get more consistent offense from Holman. He didn't look good either, although he's obviously done some very good things so far for us.
This. Even Q ,unquestionably our best player, is far from a finished product. Holman is much improved. Peters and Kegler both take some poor shots but it's obvious they have the tools to be good. Tyson Carter needs to get stronger but he can really shoot it. Herard is probably the one who has the furthest to go, but it's not like he's a scrub out there.
This team could really use Ado. Howland said in the post game we need some more physicality and Ado is our most physical player. Holman is doing the best he can but he's not a 5.
When is Howland going to get pissed off and start actually coaching these players? I have yet to see him yell or raise his voice in anger once since he arrived. Take off the kid gloves and stop walking on eggshells. Howland trying to be nice and on his best behavior all the time is what's wrong with this team right now. I don't want nice Howland. I want pissed off Howland. Haven't seen that guy once. Has he had a single technical foul called on himself since arriving? Just having to ask that means it's a PROBLEM. Kentucky wouldn't have nearly the same success with all their freshman every year if Calipari was scared to light their asses up and scared to yell at the 17ing refs.
Datcher didnt play.
I want Herard to do well. Really want it. He should have redshirted this season and worked on tennis ball hand-eye drills. Then moved to footwork drills against a ladder. No kidding. I hope he stays for his career and continually improves all 4 years. I bet he could be a 10 and 8 guy in the end.
No links? You're slipping. I've said our best case scenario is "around" .500, that being 8 or 9 wins. My worst case was 5. Went with 7 because like all of us, I am a fan and want us to be as good as we can be.
Your edits are forcing me to defend myself with actual evidence, not the agenda-driven fabrication you put forward.
My first statement about our SEC potential. It was perhaps my most optimistic. Clearly implies 8 or 9 SEC wins as a ceiling for this team.
Dec 5
My second statement reiterates that I don't think we are better than .500 in the league, and you got me, I backed off a game on the ceiling, and I predicted us to win 6 to 8 games....a range which includes 7.
Dec 20
Next up...after the UMKC game. This required some math work so get your calculator. With 30 games on the schedule plus the SECT and assuming no more than two games there, we need 16 wins to be at least .500 this year. To get there, we would need.....7 more wins. In that thread, I gave a goal, a ceiling, a floor and a prediction. I know that's a lot, but a knowledgeable fan like you should understand those terms. The goal is new, but the latter three are all in line with the previous and subsequent posts.
Dec 29
The goal - 7 SEC wins.
The floor - 5 SEC wins.
The ceiling - again I stated it is 8 or 9 wins. The prediction is 7.
Then yesterday
Jan 3
Reiterated prediction of 7
And finally, today, 9 is repeated as the ceiling, and 7 is repeated yet again as a prediction with and acknowledgment that it took a hit with the loss..
Jan 4
So the ceiling was established at 9 (with one inexcusable slip) with the consistent prediction of 7 wins. If you are tracking my posts as closely as you usually do, this should be clear. I don't know why you are having trouble following it. Or maybe you're just being a dick. Yeah, that's probably it.
I do love watching some Duke basketball although it's been frustrating this year as well. Kentucky, not so much. I hate Cal and UK and don't enjoy the beatdowns they inflict. I did catch the second half of the UCLA game though, and that was glorious. I don't claim to be a Jeff Goodman/Jon Rothstein/Andy Katz type who knows the full rotations of every team in America, but generally speaking if there's a decent game on when I am at home, I'll tune in. I find it odd that the poster who loves to lecture people on how much they don't know about sports would object to someone watching sports. Seems to me that would increase one's knowledge and perspective.
Your edits are forcing me to defend myself with actual evidence, not the agenda-driven fabrication you put forward.
My first statement about our SEC potential. It was perhaps my most optimistic. Clearly implies 8 or 9 SEC wins as a ceiling for this team.
Dec 5
http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/show...ssippi-State-basketball&p=1289880#post1289880
My second statement reiterates that I don't think we are better than .500 in the league, and you got me, I backed off a game on the ceiling, and I predicted us to win 6 to 8 games....a range which includes 7.
Dec 20
http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/showthread.php?167205-Our-chances-at-the-NIT&p=1295126#post1295126
Next up...after the UMKC game. This required some math work so get your calculator. With 30 games on the schedule plus the SECT and assuming no more than two games there, we need 16 wins to be at least .500 this year. To get there, we would need.....7 more wins. In that thread, I gave a goal, a ceiling, a floor and a prediction. I know that's a lot, but a knowledgeable fan like you should understand those terms. The goal is new, but the latter three are all in line with the previous and subsequent posts.
Dec 29
The goal - 7 SEC wins.
http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/show...s-over-Bulldogs-are-9-3&p=1297833#post1297833
The floor - 5 SEC wins.
http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/show...s-over-Bulldogs-are-9-3&p=1297860#post1297860
The ceiling - again I stated it is 8 or 9 wins. The prediction is 7.
http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/show...s-over-Bulldogs-are-9-3&p=1297885#post1297885
Then yesterday
Jan 3
Reiterated prediction of 7
http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/show...e-SEC-hoops-predictions&p=1299031#post1299031
And finally, today, 9 is repeated as the ceiling, and 7 is repeated yet again as a prediction with and acknowledgment that it took a hit with the loss..
Jan 4
So the ceiling was established at 9 (with one inexcusable slip) with the consistent prediction of 7 wins. If you are tracking my posts as closely as you usually do, this should be clear. I don't know why you are having trouble following it. Or maybe you're just being a dick. Yeah, that's probably it.
I do love watching some Duke basketball although it's been frustrating this year as well. Kentucky, not so much. I hate Cal and UK and don't enjoy the beatdowns they inflict. I did catch the second half of the UCLA game though, and that was glorious. I don't claim to be a Jeff Goodman/Jon Rothstein/Andy Katz type who knows the full rotations of every team in America, but generally speaking if there's a decent game on when I am at home, I'll tune in. I find it odd that the poster who loves to lecture people on how much they don't know about sports would object to someone watching sports. Seems to me that would increase one's knowledge and perspective.
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Thats the problem with playing such a cupcake schedule - it makes it harder to tell what you have. Although many of us already have a pretty good idea.
Datcher not playing perplexed me...especially considering the size bama has.
Herard looks like he has only been playing bball for a few years...for sure.
Herard looks like he has only been playing bball for a few years...for sure.
And that is why 35's ceiling is limited. He has great skills, but as with a lot of players like him, its always come so easy to them and they haven't had to compete. If he had Wright's ticker or Wright had his talent, MSU would have a great player. But if ifs and buts were candy and nuts....
The ceiling would be Dietric Slater with no jump shot (not that Slater had much of one).
The floor would be Brian Houston
So, you quoted a 5 win swing within your posts -- and you think that disproves my point? The point was the inconsistency.
Qualifying the amount/quality of college basketball you watch disproves my other point? The point was that projecting our team off of all those "good" teams you've been watching(your own words) is a false qualifier. Since those teams are already good and not playing all true freshmen trying to acclimate to the college game. It's apples to oranges. Yes -- contrary to your previous point -- I think that makes it highly likely that we improve at a greater rater than our opponents withmore experience.
KenPom says we are #350 of 351 nationally in experience and the least experienced power conference team. We are #321 in continuity. Outside of the Kentucky freakshow -- the "haves" anywhere near us on that list -- are struggling to at least the same extent that we are if not more. Do you think Texas, Washington, Tennessee have "ceilings" of "maybe making the NIT next year"? I get the "maybe we need to pump the brakes a little" approach -- I don't get the affinity for defining ceilings for guys and thus a team 12 games into their college careers that are in several cases being forced to play before they are ready...
View attachment 5839
Qualifying the amount/quality of college basketball you watch disproves my other point? The point was that projecting our team off of all those "good" teams you've been watching(your own words) is a false qualifier. Since those teams are already good and not playing all true freshmen trying to acclimate to the college game. It's apples to oranges. Yes -- contrary to your previous point -- I think that makes it highly likely that we improve at a greater rater than our opponents withmore experience.
KenPom says we are #350 of 351 nationally in experience and the least experienced power conference team. We are #321 in continuity. Outside of the Kentucky freakshow -- the "haves" anywhere near us on that list -- are struggling to at least the same extent that we are if not more. Do you think Texas, Washington, Tennessee have "ceilings" of "maybe making the NIT next year"? I get the "maybe we need to pump the brakes a little" approach -- I don't get the affinity for defining ceilings for guys and thus a team 12 games into their college careers that are in several cases being forced to play before they are ready...
View attachment 5839
I get what you are trying to say but that has nothing to do with critiquing our hoops team. Do I want Howland fired, hell to the no. Are you 17ing kidding me? Would I like to see some sort of a TEAM on the floor, hell to the yes. It's all about chemistry, something we severally lack. A chemical equation is built by a chemist. Do we have a good chemist, right now, I say no.
Now, there could be a number of reasons for that but as it stands, our chemist is lacking in the ion department. In order for a proper positive reaction we need an Ion. Q, our hottest particle, is not a natural cation. Is it our chemist fault, partly. You must create the right reaction for positive energy. I digress. We have a team full of scorers. They all led their individual high school teams in scoring. Great, right? Wrong. We sub entirely too much to create any kind of flow. This is partly due to the atrocious foul calls but can mostly be blamed on trying to make everyone of these, scorers, happy. Give me 6/7 basketball players. I'll beat your 10 super stars, 9/10 times.
You know what makes me happy, a W. Not a successful recruiting year. Not a bunch of AAU highly rated kids. What makes a successful chemical equation is balance. We are a glorified asphalt team. Until we accept the proper roles to build a balanced team, we will continue to fail. Players need to buy into what is best for this equation and work toward balance.
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