That's a scenario but depending on what's left in the ACC, I wonder which way that may go.
Pitt/Louisville more attracted to the B12 or WVU/Cincy more attracted to the ACC.
Assume all things are fairly equal revenue wise.
Pac12 dissolution discussion
- Thread starter rotorocker
- Start date
Pitt/Louisville more attracted to the B12 or WVU/Cincy more attracted to the ACC.
Assume all things are fairly equal revenue wise.
Respectfully...Eat a dick
I go by what I hear, and never claim to have intimate knowledge
My main concern is FSU, and while the other schools are interesting, they aren't, and never will be, a major concern to me
Which is precisely why the schools will also (and have already started) to be proactive in figuring out how to exit this mess
Even w/expanded playoffs, falling that much behind the 8 ball is a program killer for the big boys. They've invested too much $ into this to see it falter
Yea research and aau status gets them on the list of viable candidates. But location, marketability and ability to monetize media rites to the conference is what will drive the expansion.
Absolutely
If FSU had Temple level success the past 40 years, we wouldn't be having this conversation
Conversely, if their academics were on par with WVU, they also wouldn't' be in consideration
Those two principles, though hugely important and paramount for this conversation, are not mutually exclusive
To add to this, you know thinking about it if the opportunity presents itself I wonder if it might not be wise for the ACC to try and attract a WVU/Cincy when the B12 contract comes up in 2031. Be proactive. The train light is coming down the tunnel at you in the mid 2030s, you know the big status schools are itching to get out so if you're the smaller status schools, try to buttress yourselves against it before it happens.
I'd think the smaller status schools in the PAC12 might want a do over from when Texas/OU left. The B12 schools were begging for an invite and they could have had their pick of the litter. They didn't see USC/UCLA happening but the ACC schools can definitely see the writing on the wall now. You could have that supermajority necessary to outvote the big schools too.
There is no exit for the ACC schools without ESPN orchestrating it.
JayDogSmooth, I agree with much of what you say. Back in 2010, Harvey Pearleman (Nebraska President) in an interview was asked what was the end game on conference expansion, 12-14-16 teams. He stated that he saw models with 24 to 27 schools.
I believe that is the intention of the Big 10. To created not a conference, but an association of universities that are linked by being like minded in academics and athletics. As Jack Swarbrick (ND AD) said about the SEC and Big 10, competing solar systems in their own orbit. I can see the day when the Big 10 says they are done with the SEC and do their own thing without them.
Currently, with USC and UCLA, Big 10 research dollars is in the $15 Billion range. If they add Washington, California and Stanford (which most of us think they will do), you are looking at over $20 Billion.
Why is it that John Hopkinsis an associate member of the Big 10 because of lacrosse. Why is it that they have been invited to join the Big Ten Academic Alliance. Because they are the big dog on research.
I will use my own university as an example. Ohio State generated about $250 million in athletic revenue. On the other hand, the university generated about $8.8 Billion in revenue (approximately $1.5 Billion in research). Athletics represents just under 3% of the revenue. The $75 million through media rights represents 0.85% of the revenue.
Follow the real money.
I believe that is the intention of the Big 10. To created not a conference, but an association of universities that are linked by being like minded in academics and athletics. As Jack Swarbrick (ND AD) said about the SEC and Big 10, competing solar systems in their own orbit. I can see the day when the Big 10 says they are done with the SEC and do their own thing without them.
Currently, with USC and UCLA, Big 10 research dollars is in the $15 Billion range. If they add Washington, California and Stanford (which most of us think they will do), you are looking at over $20 Billion.
Why is it that John Hopkinsis an associate member of the Big 10 because of lacrosse. Why is it that they have been invited to join the Big Ten Academic Alliance. Because they are the big dog on research.
I will use my own university as an example. Ohio State generated about $250 million in athletic revenue. On the other hand, the university generated about $8.8 Billion in revenue (approximately $1.5 Billion in research). Athletics represents just under 3% of the revenue. The $75 million through media rights represents 0.85% of the revenue.
Follow the real money.
Some more comments from the UA president. The 50M number includes CFP money, NCAA credits etc.. But interesting to hear him talk about USC/Oregon being the original targets but then Fox preferring to lock up the LA market. It's been theorized here before but now we hear a president's comments on it. Also mention of Arizona/ASU relationship.
From the article:
Where exactly do the interests of the Ducks and Huskies stand?
"USC started this whole thing [to move to the Big Ten]. I think UCLA was a reluctant follower in this whole thing. But [USC] needed a travel partner close by so it makes sense," Robbins explained. "If Oregon calls Washington up and says, 'I can double the amount of money you're getting; come with me to the Big Ten,' Washington is going to say, 'OK, I'm in.' They would love to have gone.
"When I heard it first, the deal was going to be USC-Oregon [to the Big Ten]. That makes sense. … Their TV market is not that big, [but] they play in different colored uniforms, and they win. That's where I would have started this thing off.
"I think Fox wanted to consolidate L.A. and not let anybody else in [with USC-UCLA]. I think it's brilliant. Well played."
Robbins said out loud what the industry has been whispering: Fox had a significant hand in luring USC and UCLA to the Big Ten. We learned that Arizona and Arizona State are basically a package deal with Robbins and ASU president Michael Crow in lockstep. If one leaves the conference, the other might follow.
"The value of us, president [Michael] Crow and I, is even though we could go our separate ways, we're pretty locked in with each other," Robbins said. "We don't want to have a Texas-Texas A&M situation where one of us goes to one conference and one of us goes to the other. We're pretty aligned in that regard. If you take us in a bundle, that's a pretty attractive thing."
From the article:
Where exactly do the interests of the Ducks and Huskies stand?
"USC started this whole thing [to move to the Big Ten]. I think UCLA was a reluctant follower in this whole thing. But [USC] needed a travel partner close by so it makes sense," Robbins explained. "If Oregon calls Washington up and says, 'I can double the amount of money you're getting; come with me to the Big Ten,' Washington is going to say, 'OK, I'm in.' They would love to have gone.
"When I heard it first, the deal was going to be USC-Oregon [to the Big Ten]. That makes sense. … Their TV market is not that big, [but] they play in different colored uniforms, and they win. That's where I would have started this thing off.
"I think Fox wanted to consolidate L.A. and not let anybody else in [with USC-UCLA]. I think it's brilliant. Well played."
Robbins said out loud what the industry has been whispering: Fox had a significant hand in luring USC and UCLA to the Big Ten. We learned that Arizona and Arizona State are basically a package deal with Robbins and ASU president Michael Crow in lockstep. If one leaves the conference, the other might follow.
"The value of us, president [Michael] Crow and I, is even though we could go our separate ways, we're pretty locked in with each other," Robbins said. "We don't want to have a Texas-Texas A&M situation where one of us goes to one conference and one of us goes to the other. We're pretty aligned in that regard. If you take us in a bundle, that's a pretty attractive thing."
Most cogent post in the thread, IMO. Research money is in the billions. Thus, it drives the bus. The millions, in the Athletic Department are nice. But, they pale in comparison to the research windfall.
There's a reason why RU is building the biggest cancer hospital in the state. Without B1G entry and academic collaboration with research, it's highly doubtful that project comes to light.
If I understand right, you three believe that it is financially important to Big Ten schools to take in members that get a lot of research money. I'd like one of you to explain why because it's not obvious to me. (I do understand that Big Ten members want research institutions as a matter of prestige, and that being in the Big Ten benefits members academically through cooperation, but of course that's not the same thing). To help you, I have attached a link to the Big Ten Academic Alliance's web site.
https://btaa.org/
My own view, subject to correction, is that being academically distinguished is necessary for an institution to be considered for Big Ten membership, but that the institution must also show how its addition will increase the media rights payout for all the individual members -- that it's the media rights payout that is the important financial element. But I'm willing to be proven wrong.
https://btaa.org/
My own view, subject to correction, is that being academically distinguished is necessary for an institution to be considered for Big Ten membership, but that the institution must also show how its addition will increase the media rights payout for all the individual members -- that it's the media rights payout that is the important financial element. But I'm willing to be proven wrong.
There was another comment in that article about academics from the UA prez.
From the article:
How does academics factor?
What influence does the Pac-12 elite academic reputation have on Arizona's decision? Nine of the 12 current Pac-12 schools are members of the American Association of Universities -- top Tier I research schools. Kansas will be the only AAU school in the Big 12 once Texas leaves."That's a big deal," Robbins said. "It's a big deal to the Big Ten, and it's a big deal to us. But at the end of the day, this thing is getting unwieldy. The Big 12 has one AAU, Kansas. When I tried to take it back to the other presidents, that's something we talked about. But it's really about TV markets and how much media companies value your brand."
That's a very important point. Arizona wants to be with academically distinguished company. But that's not about money as much as prestige; Arizona looks better in a conference with Cal and Stanford than with the University of Central Florida and Cincinnati, not that those are bad schools. One of the arguments for Rutgers to join the Big Ten was that the Big Ten schools were more comparable to Rutgers in prestige than the AAC schools, and that therefore Rutgers' reputation would become even better than it is. If you look at Rutgers' most recent academic plan, a lot of it compares Rutgers to the other Big Ten schools, and discusses how to improve Rutgers relative to thsoe schools.
https://mgoblog.com/diaries/b1g-expansion-dollars-research-edition This is a dated link. But, the logic behind it is current.
Wow....
From the link above....
...............
The façade of an athletic motivation for the expansion provides the plausible deniability the CIC needs to increase power without creating any outright rifts in the AAU. It provides the means to strengthen alliances without being overt about it.
..........
That leads me to believe if Florida St get AAU, they are 100% aiming for the Big10.
And that we would get either GT or UNC, as a partner...
From the link above....
...............
The façade of an athletic motivation for the expansion provides the plausible deniability the CIC needs to increase power without creating any outright rifts in the AAU. It provides the means to strengthen alliances without being overt about it.
..........
That leads me to believe if Florida St get AAU, they are 100% aiming for the Big10.
And that we would get either GT or UNC, as a partner...
Last edited:
but would the UofA stay a PAC member if the TV rights shares are so low that other members bolt to the B-12 ( including ASU) making the PAC lose P-5 status and having most of Arizona college sports fans in the Tucson area turn into (Big 12) ASU fans.
You can bet if the PAC's TV rights deal is a bad one, programs will ask the B1G and Big 12 to take them in . Leaving Arizona behind the 8 ball if they are going to put academics over revenue sharing..
I don't think the B1G has them on their list of next in line for membership.
Last edited:
I believe it would be Virginia, North Carolina, Duke, Georgia Tech and Florida State.
Duke has over 1.2 Billion in research. Not bad for a small private school.
To quote Bob Dylan, "money doesn't talk it swears." Yes, the U of A would probably bolt if the Pac-whatever gets a much worse per-school payout than the Big 12. But it's not a foregone conclusion that will happen. And the U of A might stay with the Pac if it thinks the difference in money isn't worth the hit its brand could take from being associated with lesser schools.
Are suggesting that the main reason FSU wants to join the AAU is because of athletics?
The big $ is in research
I was incorrect in saying athletics was 1 %, it's 3 % like you said w/1% being media rights
It's not just a football angle, and you have to look long term
Academics, research, etc.
Also, re. football, you can't have 20 hammers in a conference in all sports, esp. football
You need some subpar programs to even things out
They'll get AAU and out of the ACC before 2036, it's simply a matter of when, at what cost, etc.
New prez. Richard McCoullaugh was brought in from Harvard w/the main task of speeding up the process
They want it b/c it helps in many facets (athletics included), but the main reason isn't athletics
No, I would say getting AAU gets them a ton of funding....
Getting AAU and BIG10 gets them a shitload more.
Maybe I am blind, but why would FSU even consider SEC if they have an offer from the BIG10... and getting AAU assists in that.... also not being a 2nd Florida team in the SEC. Perception that BIG10 is easier...
Likewise UNC....
The strength and pull that the CIC gets by adding teams like Florida St and UNC is huge.
But it isn't everything.... as I wouldn't see the need to add Duke over UNC or at all
even though Duke appears to have more pull than UNC in the AAU
Also adding the State of Florida to BIG10 adds more $$ to the pool than FloridaSt to SEC which already has Florida.
the research consortium of the Big is and has always been the cherry on top for schools.
I agree with you on that. When any school has been added, they all seem to want to know when they can join the Big Ten Academic Alliance (previously the CIC). They know what it can do for them.
@RUTGERS95
Do you think that the Athletics is the cherry on top to the Presidents vs the being part of the CIC?
I doubt we go for Duke.... Just like no chance at Clemson.
But the article implies that Athletics is the Cherry on Top.
Would FSU see it that way if both the BIG and SEC came calling? Is it a no brainer if they had a choice. Or would they somehow say SEC are top Dogs and they would prefer to go there.
Duke? you people need to get some practical and realisitic views to the affair at present
This is about dollars and Duke, UVA, Wake, BC, Pitt, Sarah, Miami, etc etc do NOT bring 75mm+ to the equation
research has been and will continue to remain a high priority but for expansion, it's a distant 2nd. Athletics drives the bus
From what I’ve been told,That’s the exact thought process of the powers that be in Tallahassee
Fan base football wise overwhelmingly prefers SEC - myself included
Big picture though, if offered, I believe they’d choose the B1G for many reasons, all of which are valid
First, the blogger is wrong in thinking that the National Academy of Sciences might have anything to do with deciding who gets what grants. I've served on Academy committees, and I know what the Academy does and does not do. The fact he makes this elementary mistake detracts from whatever credibility he has. The idea that faculty at a CIC school try to persuade granting agencies to give money to other CIC institutions is far-fetched; researchers want the money for themselves. There might be some log-rolling going on, but it's hard to do. Finally, the faculty advice is just one element, and not the most important one, in a granting agency's decision about who to award a grant to. Anyway, even if he were right, this would be a very minor factor in deciding what schools to be in the conference -- it doesn't have huge financial implications.
Last edited:
True, but Florida's public universities have improved a great deal. The state gives a lot of financial incentives for Florida's high school students to stay in-state. Florida puts New Jersey to shame in that respect.
USNWR # 19 public university in the US
2013 national champs
10 wins last year
Preseason top 10 for 2023
2/10 on the troll job
Do better next time