Penn State enrollment numbers mirror national trends

[PSUFTG]

There are always interesting numbers games when comparing state support to public universities. I have seen reports that make the state look generous to PSU and seen analysis that indicates that PSU receives much less per in-state student than the national average. I takes me back to when I to Accounting 101 as an elective and was shocked to find that it was legal to keep multiple sets of books that, while equally accurate, presented a different picture of an individual or organization's financial status.

To use the North Carolina vs PA example, if we are comparing state support to PSU and UNC are we comparing the funding given to the entire UNC system and all PSU campuses or just Chapel Hill and UP? UNC -Chapel Hill has roughly half the students as PSU-UP, so how is that disparity accounted for? Beyond that, if we want an accurate picture, shouldn't we also compare the state support to all state schools? Does one account for population size and demographic differences? If those challenges aren't enough, the structure of state higher education programs vary greatly from state to state making a legitimate apples-to-apples comparison even more difficult.

To be fair, I was only concerned with Penn State, and how it compares with its Big Ten peers. It gets more State funds than any of them (in recent years, anyway). There are audited financial statements of the organization in toto, that illustrate that (whether any entity likes to run multiple internal ledgers within their black box or not). That is just facts.

It was someone else who brought up Virginia and North Carolina (and, I think, to a certain extent, various state's funding of education in general - not just Penn State). I have some thoughts on those topics, but wouldn't claim to have all the detailed information. That could be an interesting conversation - and I was hoping they had some of that background information. But, in any event, that is all a different - and very multi-faceted - issue.

 

[OaktonDave]

The school’s mission is to educate average Commonwealth students NOT to educate people from outside the Commonwealth. This out of state trend is a betrayal of the school’s mission.

Assuming that Pennsylvania has few in-state students to educate, would you support downsizing the university to match the state's population trends?

 

[EddyS]

Assuming that Pennsylvania has few in-state students to educate, would you support downsizing the university to match the state's population trends?

Just spent a moment looking up Pa. population 18 and under= was 2.5 million as of 2010. 2020 census showed approx. 2.56 million. Pa. Overall population has not been shrinking, it has been slowly growing. I think there are more than enough Pa. kids.
PSU, with 47 thousand students at University Park has actually been consistently increasing its UP student population- again I think a grab for money. When my daughter went there in the last years of the last century, they were enrolling something like 8,000 a year and that was dramatically up from a decade earlier when the number was something like 6,000-6,500. Now I believe it is closer to 10,000- we have more students who are not as good academically.
Because of poor state aid and the administration grabbing for money from students through price and enrollment increases, they have dramatically worsened their academic standing.

To answer your question, I would reduce enrolled students to the level that returns the profile to what it was. Also, I believe ( do not know) that this obsessiveness with “ diversity” has materially hurt the quality of the student body.

 

[PSUFTG]

Just spent a moment looking up Pa. population 18 and under= was 2.5 million as of 2010. 2020 census showed approx. 2.56 million. Pa. Overall population has not been shrinking, it has been slowly growing. I think there are more than enough Pa. kids.
PSU, with 47 thousand students at University Park has actually been consistently increasing its UP student population- again I think a grab for money. When my daughter went there in the last years of the last century, they were enrolling something like 8,000 a year and that was dramatically up from a decade earlier when the number was something like 6,000-6,500. Now I believe it is closer to 10,000- we have more students who are not as good academically.
Because of poor state aid and the administration grabbing for money from students through price and enrollment increases, they have dramatically worsened their academic standing.

To answer your question, I would reduce enrolled students to the level that returns the profile to what it was. Also, I believe ( do not know) that this obsessiveness with “ diversity” has materially hurt the quality of the student body.

As to the population numbers, Pennsylvania high school graduates, per year, are down about 15% from the figures of 20-30 years ago, IIRC (And that is the case throughout most of the northeastern states. I think Michigan had the largest % drop offs, of any large state)- but, as you alluded to, the numbers currently, last few years, have been relatively flat. Projections are for numbers to fall a bit moving forward, but not as dramatically as in the last generation.

 

[Bertrand]

Obsession with diversity materially impacting the quality of students? I view it quite differently. I work with Smeal students, and I talk with outstanding students from Brazil, India, China, Korea, Greece, and all around the world. Super smart, risk takers, multi-lingual, and savvy. They add a great amount to the school.

Enjoying Smeal’s Wall Street Bootcamp, the management consulting club working with real clients, real estate boot camp, and so many others. One of the best supply chain programs in the country which is a smoking hot major currently. Smeal is a solid feeder to investment backs and asset management firms, not to mention the Big 4 and top management consulting firms. Lots of great stuff happening here with great faculty as well. Penn State could charge more for Smeal like UVA does for their school of commerce. Kids would still come. But again, global diversity the replicates global business!!

 

[BobPSU92]

All schools are doing the diversity thing now. Shouldn’t the impact be about the same on all schools?

 

[GrimReaper]

Penn State does not compete with other Big 10 schools for students except maybe Rutgers and Maryland. Who decides do I want to go to PSU or Indiana? They compete with Pitt, Temple, smaller state schools like West Chester, and other public or private schools like Lehigh, Bucknell, Susquehanna, Delaware, Widener, Gettysburg, CMU, etc. and some out of state like Towson, Rider, West Virginia, College of NJ, Syracuse, and SUNY. Obviously there is a wide range of costs and academic ratings among them for all levels of high school applicants.

You're looking at it too narrowly. There are a lot of kids from NJ who go to schools like OSU, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, and Wisconsin who might have gone to PSU. And they're often better students.

 

[TheBigUglies]

The rise in out of state students is a disgrace. Believe I heard pushing 50%.
The mission of a Land Grant university is to educate the non- elites within its state.
PSU is doing less and less of that.
Shame on the school’s so called leaders. Shame.

C'mon, out of staters pay more money for tuition and cost the same as in staters to educate increasing PSU's bottom line. Its all about the money.

 

[Nitwit]

You're looking at it too narrowly. There are a lot of kids from NJ who go to schools like OSU, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, and Wisconsin who might have gone to PSU. And they're often better students.

It is true that NJ has the largest out migration of college students of any state in the country, partly because of a lack of good NJ schools and partly because of proximity of good alternatives within 3-4 hours of its population.

 

[EddyS]

To be fair, I was only concerned with Penn State, and how it compares with its Big Ten peers. It gets more State funds than any of them (in recent years, anyway). There are audited financial statements of the organization in toto, that illustrate that (whether any entity likes to run multiple internal ledgers within their black box or not). That is just facts.

It was someone else who brought up Virginia and North Carolina (and, I think, to a certain extent, various state's funding of education in general - not just Penn State). I have some thoughts on those topics, but wouldn't claim to have all the detailed information. That could be an interesting conversation - and I was hoping they had some of that background information. But, in any event, that is all a different - and very multi-faceted - issue.

I guess I was incorrect. I thought State aid to PSU, which is used to subsidize undergrad tuition, was among the lowest in the country. And was about 6% of overall budgetary expenditures. Thought that low aid was one primary reason why the school is so expensive. Are you sure?

 

[EddyS]

C'mon, out of staters pay more money for tuition and cost the same as in staters to educate increasing PSU's bottom line. Its all about the money.

Well that does not lessen the disgrace of the university not meeting its core mission= educating in state children of modest means.

 

[BobPSU92]

You're looking at it too narrowly. There are a lot of kids from NJ who go to schools like OSU, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, and Wisconsin who might have gone to PSU. And they're often better students.

Penn State admissions page:

“We are looking for well-heeled, out-of-state dumbshits for the Class of 2025. Talented students, Pennsylvania residents, and those requiring financial aid are strongly encouraged to apply elsewhere.”

 

[EddyS]

Obsession with diversity materially impacting the quality of students? I view it quite differently. I work with Smeal students, and I talk with outstanding students from Brazil, India, China, Korea, Greece, and all around the world. Super smart, risk takers, multi-lingual, and savvy. They add a great amount to the school.

Enjoying Smeal’s Wall Street Bootcamp, the management consulting club working with real clients, real estate boot camp, and so many others. One of the best supply chain programs in the country which is a smoking hot major currently. Smeal is a solid feeder to investment backs and asset management firms, not to mention the Big 4 and top management consulting firms. Lots of great stuff happening here with great faculty as well. Penn State could charge more for Smeal like UVA does for their school of commerce. Kids would still come. But again, global diversity the replicates global business!!

Not talking about into students. Am talking about US students.

As to the population numbers, Pennsylvania high school graduates, per year, are down about 15% from the figures of 20-30 years ago, IIRC (And that is the case throughout most of the northeastern states. I think Michigan had the largest % drop offs, of any large state)- but, as you alluded to, the numbers currently, last few years, have been relatively flat. Projections are for numbers to fall a bit moving forward, but not as dramatically as in the last generation.

That is certainly not true for the commonwealth’s population history ( see earlier post). Yes, the commonwealth is one of the slowest growing states, but it has been growing for as long as I know. I also provided the growth in under ‘18 population from ‘10 to ‘20; again, slow but positive. Unless the population skew has changed or the graduation rate has gone down or both. I imagine Pa. is aging like the rest, but I don’t think the grad. rate has gone down much if any.

 

[EddyS]

So, I went into ”nces” and found a history of high school graduates back to 1980.
Yes, Pa. has been down modestly, BUT so has every other Big Ten state that I saw ( including Ohio).
So, for me the mgmt. of PSU can not use declining graduates as an excuse for the tragedy they have created.
And why have they increased enrolled freshmen from some 6,000 25-30 years ago to 10,000 today.

 

[EddyS]

All schools are doing the diversity thing now. Shouldn’t the impact be about the same on all schools?

If the increase is comparable. I am not sure I remember what our fearless leader said at the recent board meeting, but as I recall the increase was shockingly large.

 

[Nitwit]

Does the obsession with diversity impact quality? That's a racially provocative assumption. I don't know the answer.

 

[GrimReaper]

It is true that NJ has the largest out migration of college students of any state in the country, partly because of a lack of good NJ schools and partly because of proximity of good alternatives within 3-4 hours of its population.

Nope, Illinois and California, both in terms of absolute and net.

 

[Fortheglory612]

It is true that NJ has the largest out migration of college students of any state in the country, partly because of a lack of good NJ schools and partly because of proximity of good alternatives within 3-4 hours of its population.

Where I live in south jersey, most of the teachers/counselors I work with went to Rowan in Glassboro, NJ and make really good money. I am looking into it for my masters. Maybe it depends on what someone wants to major in? In northern nj from friends and relatives I know most seem to have gone out of state. JMO from what I have seen.