Platoon

[JonathanW_rivals]

I think most of us think this won’t happen. But suppose it did with Ivisic. And suppose the split was 16-16, then the best 5 THAT NIGHT finish the game (8min). How would you split them up?

What if it was just a straight 24-16 split?

In first scenario I go:
Blue=Wagner Reeves Edwards Bradshaw Mitchell
White=Sheppard Dillingham Theiro Ivisic Onyenso

In 2nd scenario a lot tougher, you could make a case for almost any of the 10 to play 24min.

 

[*Fox2Monk*]

I think most of us think this won’t happen. But suppose it did with Ivisic. And suppose the split was 16-16, then the best 5 THAT NIGHT finish the game (8min). How would you split them up?

What if it was just a straight 24-16 split?

In first scenario I go:
Blue=Wagner Reeves Edwards Bradshaw Mitchell
White=Sheppard Dillingham Theiro Ivisic Onyenso

In 2nd scenario a lot tougher, you could make a case for almost any of the 10 to play 24min.

I don’t see Onyenso and Big Z being good together, I’d rather sub Burks on for him in that 2nd lineup. A little more versatile I think. Not so clogged depending on how Z adjusts.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Starters:
G - Wagner - Sheppard
G - Reeves - Dillingham
F - Edwards - Reeves
F - Thiero - Z
C - Bradshaw - Mitchell

9 man rotation, with the 9th man getting about 8 to 10 minutes a game.

I like Mitchell at the 5. I'm not a fan of Cal's attempt to play Mitchell and Bradshaw together.

 

[KMKAT]

I liked the platoon and teams simply struggled to match it. It was close to as perfect a

But with Cal having 10 coaches now, he’ll tell you it’s too hard.

Now let’s get back to Cal reality even though I’d rather see us try the platoon. Theres plenty of minutes.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

Starters:
G - Wagner - Sheppard
G - Reeves - Dillingham
F - Edwards - Reeves
F - Thiero - Z
C - Bradshaw - Mitchell

9 man rotation, with the 9th man getting about 8 to 10 minutes a game.

I like Mitchell at the 5. I'm not a fan of Cal's attempt to play Mitchell and Bradshaw together.

Did you miss the title of the thread “platoon” even if it is hypothetical

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

I don’t see Onyenso and Big Z being good together, I’d rather sub Burks on for him in that 2nd lineup. A little more versatile I think. Not so clogged depending on how Z adjusts.

The players all say Ivisic is a really good shooter. That is why I paired those 2 together, with him out at the 3pt line on offense. So I disagree with your statement even though not me of us have seen him play yet (so could be wrong).
Also I think the “clogged lane” cliche is way overused, 1 big doesn’t do that. Even 2 doesn’t have to if you have them moving.

 

[UKrazycat2_rivals]

Cal after his last platoon.

 

[Ineverplayedthegame]

Going with a platoon tends to feed the AAU style of play of more individualism and most of these guys need to get away from that and focus on team play.

 

[DreadLox]

I liked the platoon and teams simply struggled to match it. It was close to as perfect a

But with Cal having 10 coaches now, he’ll tell you it’s too hard.

Now let’s get back to Cal reality even though I’d rather see us try the platoon. Theres plenty of minutes.

He’ll tell you it ruined recruiting for years.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Going with a platoon tends to feed the AAU style of play of more individualism and most of these guys need to get away from that and focus on team play.

How ironic, with the handle. Sorry, I don’t follow this logic.

 

[bucsrule8872]

I think most of us think this won’t happen. But suppose it did with Ivisic. And suppose the split was 16-16, then the best 5 THAT NIGHT finish the game (8min). How would you split them up?

What if it was just a straight 24-16 split?

In first scenario I go:
Blue=Wagner Reeves Edwards Bradshaw Mitchell
White=Sheppard Dillingham Theiro Ivisic Onyenso

In 2nd scenario a lot tougher, you could make a case for almost any of the 10 to play 24min.

I don’t like Thiero at the 3. He’s better suited as a small ball 4. It’s another case of trying to play guys out of position again like in 2015. I know that was a great team, but I never liked playing Lyles at the 3.

I like an 8-9 man rotation myself. Our top 8 are excellent players. Six are averaging double digit points and the seventh is right there at the doorstep. That some serious balance.

I would play Onyenso and Ivisic sparingly unless they are just too good to keep on the bench.

The rotation is pretty good right now, not sure I would mess with it.

Sometimes more is less.

 

[Ineverplayedthegame]

How ironic, with the handle. Sorry, I don’t follow this logic.

Platooning becomes like an all-star game with mass substitutions and each group has to restart their flow. It could start with team play or you might have guys taking turns hunting for their shots .

 

[*Fox2Monk*]

Starters:
G - Wagner - Sheppard
G - Reeves - Dillingham
F - Edwards - Reeves
F - Thiero - Z
C - Bradshaw - Mitchell

9 man rotation, with the 9th man getting about 8 to 10 minutes a game.

I like Mitchell at the 5. I'm not a fan of Cal's attempt to play Mitchell and Bradshaw together.

Me either at least how he’s using them right now. If he would play Mitchell like an NBA 4 and let him drag his defender to the 3 then it could work.

 

[*Fox2Monk*]

I don’t like Thiero at the 3. He’s better suited as a small ball 4. It’s another case of trying to play guys out of position again like in 2015. I know that was a great team, but I never liked playing Lyles at the 3.

I like an 8-9 man rotation myself. Our top 8 are excellent players. Six are averaging double digit points and the seventh is right there at the doorstep. That some serious balance.

I would play Onyenso and Ivisic sparingly unless they are just too good to keep on the bench.

The rotation is pretty good right now, not sure I would mess with it.

Sometimes more is less.

Outside of 2015, Cal’s most successful runs have been teams with a very solid 7 man rotation with 1 or 2 dudes who can play in emergencies.

 

[*Fox2Monk*]

The players all say Ivisic is a really good shooter. That is why I paired those 2 together, with him out at the 3pt line on offense. So I disagree with your statement even though not me of us have seen him play yet (so could be wrong).
Also I think the “clogged lane” cliche is way overused, 1 big doesn’t do that. Even 2 doesn’t have to if you have them moving.

I agree but Cal typically doesn’t use them like that and it’s why we bog down. I’ve heard and seen that Z was a decent shot and he’s mobile. Just saying depending on how he adjusts to the college game whether it would work. We know Burks can play meaningful minutes right now.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

I don’t like Thiero at the 3. He’s better suited as a small ball 4. It’s another case of trying to play guys out of position again like in 2015. I know that was a great team, but I never liked playing Lyles at the 3.

I like an 8-9 man rotation myself. Our top 8 are excellent players. Six are averaging double digit points and the seventh is right there at the doorstep. That some serious balance.

I would play Onyenso and Ivisic sparingly unless they are just too good to keep on the bench.

The rotation is pretty good right now, not sure I would mess with it.

Sometimes more is less.

I agree about Theiro. That was same with Lyles and Poythress.

I do think Ivisic and Onyenso may be too good to set bench all game. Onyenso may be our best rebounder, shot blocker, and post defender. Some games don’t need good post defender, but always need the other two. And when the players say “Z can really shoot it!”, and he’s 7,1, and as a Euro you almost know he can put it on the floor, all that makes me very optimistic IF he is ever cleared.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

I agree but Cal typically doesn’t use them like that and it’s why we bog down. I’ve heard and seen that Z was a decent shot and he’s mobile. Just saying depending on how he adjusts to the college game whether it would work. We know Burks can play meaningful minutes right now.

I think many of us hope the Welch influence has Cal more willing to play him like that. I mean he’s mostly kept Mitchell out there. This is his 2nd chance with a player like Skal

 

[KMKAT]

Outside of 2015, Cal’s most successful runs have been teams with a very solid 7 man rotation with 1 or 2 dudes who can play in emergencies.

Remember the talent on any of the team where Cal shortened the rotation.

We have 10 guys without Z; where are you going to put all these guys if you don't have a platoon?

If this team is so together like we're being told, where's the problem? 5 assistant coaches and a head coach can't handle a platoon? I know the answer; it's just that Cal has to be the one who sees it and no one in the fan base can be proven right.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

Outside of 2015, Cal’s most successful runs have been teams with a very solid 7 man rotation with 1 or 2 dudes who can play in emergencies.

2010 - 9 dudes
2011 - 6 dudes (just didn’t have more)
2012 - 7 dudes
2014 - 7 dudes
2015 - 10 dudes (until injury)
2017 - 8 dudes
2019 - 8-9 dudes
2020 - 9 dudes

 

[bucsrule8872]

Remember the talent on any of the team where Cal shortened the rotation.

We have 10 guys without Z; where are you going to put all these guys if you don't have a platoon?

If this team is so together like we're being told, where's the problem? 5 assistant coaches and a head coach can't handle a platoon? I know the answer; it's just that Cal has to be the one who sees it and no one in the fan base can be proven right.

It’s not just having 10 guys. You need to be 2 deep at every spot to truly run a platoon system.

This team doesn’t have that. Not really. Thiero is much better suited to play the 4 than the 3.

Now I am not saying Cal shouldn’t play all 10, if all 10 are worthy, but I wouldn’t platoon. There’s a subtle difference.

I’d rotate the 5 guards/wings (Wagner, Sheppard, Dillingham, Reeves, Edwards) at the 1-3 spots. Then rotate the other five (Thiero, Mitchell, Bradshaw, Ivisic, Onyenso) at the 4-5 spots. The big guys won’t get as many minutes, but at least they won’t be playing out of position.

Maybe something like this (+/- 2-3 minutes):

G Wagner(25)/Sheppard(15)
G Dillingham(25)/Sheppard(10)/Reeves(5)
G Reeves(20)/Edwards(20)
F Mitchell(20)/Thiero(20)
F Bradshaw(20)/Onyenso(10)/Ivisic(10)

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

Maybe something like this (+/- 2-3 minutes):

G Wagner(25)/Sheppard(15)
G Dillingham(25)/Sheppard(10)/Reeves(5)
G Reeves(20)/Edwards(20)
F Mitchell(20)/Thiero(20)
F Bradshaw(20)/Onyenso(10)/Ivisic(10)

I am not opposed to those minutes. But I think many are hoping Bradshaw or Edwards plays well enough to EARN more. Right Now, I'd be ok dropping Edwards to 15.

 

[bucsrule8872]

I am not opposed to those minutes. But I think many are hoping Bradshaw or Edwards plays well enough to EARN more. Right Now, I'd be ok dropping Edwards to 15.

I can see that. Somewhere between 15-20 right now would be about right for Edwards.

He still needs enough reps to continue to grow and improve, IMHO.

 

[Wildcats1st]

We will lose extra games screwing around at this point with “platooning” saying it makes me want to vomit. Unless you’re gonna run 40 min of hell it’s pointless. You play the hot hands. An 8 man rotation by March is what we need not wholesale changes. As soon as you start to make the platoon work someone will get hurt. As a matter of fact trying to make the platoon work someone will get hurt and throw everything off. And big z who no one calls by his name who knows what kind of player he is? No one knows his actual name so how can anyone evaluate what kind of player he is? IF he is ever eligible he may have no impact. And how do you take reeves off the court to split 50/50 time with Edwards?. Hell Edwards will never get it going. It’s a terrible idea and I’m glad cal won’t even consider it. Actually let’s forget even invoking the platoon because as a uk fan that season ended worse than any in history. It was traumatic and cal stopped coaching after that. The best thing cal ever did at uk was bury the term “platoon”. I give him props for giving up on that terrible idea. So much talent on the bench in 2015 it makes me sick because if we play an 8 man rotation we may lose a couple games but we win a title. Play your best 8 and if someone gets injured replace them in the rotation with the next best player.

Btw the talent on this team isn’t anywhere near 2015 no another reason it’s a bad idea.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Starters:
G - Wagner - Sheppard
G - Reeves - Dillingham
F - Edwards - Reeves
F - Thiero - Z
C - Bradshaw - Mitchell

9 man rotation, with the 9th man getting about 8 to 10 minutes a game.

I like Mitchell at the 5. I'm not a fan of Cal's attempt to play Mitchell and Bradshaw together.

We re going no where in March without figuring out how to play Mitchell at the 4 and legit 5s at their proper spot. Cal knows it that’s why he’s trying to make it work and it will work. It needs more than 2 games to build chemistry with a totally different lineup.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Remember the talent on any of the team where Cal shortened the rotation.

We have 10 guys without Z; where are you going to put all these guys if you don't have a platoon?

If this team is so together like we're being told, where's the problem? 5 assistant coaches and a head coach can't handle a platoon? I know the answer; it's just that Cal has to be the one who sees it and no one in the fan base can be proven right.

We went 10 man deep in 96 and didn’t platoon. It’s pointless. Play the matchups there’s no need to try to control minutes. Play your best 8 and play the matchups. Like I said unless you’re gonna press and try to fatigue your opponent platooning is a chemistry killer

 

[*CatinIL*]

Cal after his last platoon.

That video was the first thing that popped into my mind. [laughing]

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

We will lose extra games screwing around at this point with “platooning” saying it makes me want to vomit. Unless you’re gonna run 40 min of hell it’s pointless. You play the hot hands. An 8 man rotation by March is what we need not wholesale changes. As soon as you start to make the platoon work someone will get hurt. As a matter of fact trying to make the platoon work someone will get hurt and throw everything off. And big z who no one calls by his name who knows what kind of player he is? No one knows his actual name so how can anyone evaluate what kind of player he is? IF he is ever eligible he may have no impact. And how do you take reeves off the court to split 50/50 time with Edwards?. Hell Edwards will never get it going. It’s a terrible idea and I’m glad cal won’t even consider it. Actually let’s forget even invoking the platoon because as a uk fan that season ended worse than any in history. It was traumatic and cal stopped coaching after that. The best thing cal ever did at uk was bury the term “platoon”. I give him props for giving up on that terrible idea. So much talent on the bench in 2015 it makes me sick because if we play an 8 man rotation we may lose a couple games but we win a title. Play your best 8 and if someone gets injured replace them in the rotation with the next best player.

Btw the talent on this team isn’t anywhere near 2015 no another reason it’s a bad idea.

Ignorance =
A) thinking the 2015 season ended worse than any in UK history
B) thinking the 2015 team lost to Wisc because of the Platoon
C) thinking the 2014-15 team even played the Platoon much after the Poythress injury in mid-Dec
D) thinking a Platoon results in someone getting hurt
E) ALL OF THE ABOVE


E, ding ding ding, winner winner chicken dinner

 

[catomic42]

I wouldn’t mind seeing a “modified” platoon. Subbing in a 4 and 5 together when needed. And then subbing in a couple guards at a time.

 

[JPScott]

Going with a platoon tends to feed the AAU style of play of more individualism and most of these guys need to get away from that and focus on team play.

Actually it's the exact opposite. Platoons lead to having compact units which learn to work together as a team. Only difference is because you have two of them, fatigue and foul trouble generally don't come into play.

For people who prefer 'short' rotations, the platoon is the epitome of a short rotation. Only you have two of them. It's a way of having the best of both worlds. (i.e. both compact lineups and depth).

 

[BigRedMachineBigBlueNation]

Cal will never do it even though that 2015 team annihilated teams because of it. Post-Poythress injury we saw that team was uber-talented but human, beatable.

I mean I may never see a UK team run the score up on Kansas like that again in my lifetime.

 

[fatguy87]

No matter one's opinion on the efficacy of "platooning," the 2015 team was far deeper than this one. Booker, Ulis, and Trey Lyles came off the bench on that team at one point. Booker and Lyles would be surefire starters on this year's team. Unless the bench players are just as good or sufficiently close in ability, limiting the minutes of your best players to roughly half the game is a self-induced handicap.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

No matter one's opinion on the efficacy of "platooning," the 2015 team was far deeper than this one. Booker, Ulis, and Trey Lyles came off the bench on that team at one point. Booker and Lyles would be surefire starters on this year's team. Unless the bench players are just as good or sufficiently close in ability, limiting the minutes of your best players to roughly half the game is a self-induced handicap.

You are thinking how good Booker is as a pro and Ulis was the next year. At UK he and Ulis was comparable to Dillingham and Shepard, Lyles to Bradshaw. There is no Towns or Willie on this team. But I would put Theiro ahead of Lee. So I disagree that 15 was deeper IF AND WHEN Onyenso and Ivisic can play.

 

[fatguy87]

You are thinking how good Booker is as a pro and Ulis was the next year. At UK he and Ulis was comparable to Dillingham and Shepard, Lyles to Bradshaw. There is no Towns or Willie on this team. But I would put Theiro ahead of Lee. So I disagree that 15 was deeper IF AND WHEN Onyenso and Ivisic can play.

I read this post, and I feel as if I'm taking crazy pills.

We are comparing the 2015 team that went 38-1 and was one of the most dominant teams of the last 20 years in college basketball to a group that lost at home a couple weeks ago to UNC-Wilmington. Their platoon units steamrolled opponents. We can barely cobble together 8 right now that cracks the top 20 in kenpom.

 

[NociHTTP]

I wouldn’t mind seeing a “modified” platoon. Subbing in a 4 and 5 together when needed. And then subbing in a couple guards at a time.

That will never happen under Cal. It's either sub out the whole group, or none at all. He doesn't want to be involved with all that. He shortens the bench every year to basically 2 or 3 guys. It's one of the reasons guys try so hard to leave.

 

[natchezrule]

Barnes killed Elias

 

[Cbbcrazy2]

Cal would never platoon again, he came too close to a championship doing that. No, will never happen. The used car salesman had rather play his boring style.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

I read this post, and I feel as if I'm taking crazy pills.

We are comparing the 2015 team that went 38-1 and was one of the most dominant teams of the last 20 years in college basketball to a group that lost at home a couple weeks ago to UNC-Wilmington. Their platoon units steamrolled opponents. We can barely cobble together 8 right now that cracks the top 20 in kenpom.

Not my fault you are crazy.
I clearly said this team has no Towns, has no Willie.

As great as that team was, they had a few very close games to some very mediocre SEC teams. But that is what great teams do, find a way to win even on an off day. It probably helped to have several experienced guys from the prior year (Aaron, Andrew, Willie, Johnson).

But talentwise:
- Sheppard and Dillingham are comparable to Ulis and Booker (what they were not what they later became, and Ulis is one of my 2-3 favorites over 40 years).
- Wagner and Reeves are comparable to the twins
- will Bradshaw be as good this year as Towns was? I doubt it, but it’s possible
- is Mitchell as good as WCS? No.
- could Ivisic be as good as Lyles was? I doubt it, but he is said to be pretty good, yet NONE of us know!!!
- Theiro and Onyenso are comparable to Johnson and Lee, with DJ having edge over UKO but Theiro having edge over Lee.

You claimed the 15 team wasn’t as deep. That I’ve shown is wrong. The difference was this team has no one like Towns or Willie, and the best chance at having someone maybe comparable to those 2 was only able to play 13 total timid (looking like a newborn doe testing out its legs) minutes in 2 combined losses. And this team doesn’t have the experience that team had.

 

[bucsrule8872]

Like everything. There are pros and cons to platooning.

The benefits are pretty clear. You can wear out your opponents. Also, it keeps players fresh throughout the season when you can avoid playing them 30+ minutes a game.

Injuries are less likely to happen with players having less time on the floor.

Foul trouble isn’t as much of an issue.

There are some issues with platooning.

One drawback is if/when you have injuries or foul trouble and have to move people around, it can be a chemistry killer.

Guys are use to playing with the same five and aren’t use to playing with the replacement player.

There was a coach on here, I can’t remember his name, that use to platoon with his travel team and said that was the problem he ran into.

Also, platoons work better if every player 1-10 is pretty even. When there is a clear drop off between 1-5 and 6-10, it’s hard as a coach to rely on your second unit for half the game. Can you imagine only playing AD 20 minutes a game, while relying on Vargas for the other 20? I don’t see how that could be justified.

And as I have mentioned, you have to have the right personnel to play the right combos.

It’s difficult to platoon if you don’t have two players at each position. If you have to play guys out of position, it doesn’t work as well.

 

[JPScott]

Also, platoons work better if every player 1-10 is pretty even. When there is a clear drop off between 1-5 and 6-10, it’s hard as a coach to rely on your second unit for half the game. Can you imagine only playing AD 20 minutes a game, while relying on Vargas for the other 20? I don’t see how that could be justified.

And as I have mentioned, you have to have the right personnel to play the right combos.

First of all there’s absolutely no rule that the two units need to split the same amount of time equally.

You can certainly play one unit more minutes than the other if it makes sense. The only question is it is better to leave a particular unit in or to bring in the other unit and give them a rest. How much time each squad ends up getting is largely based on how they play.

I agree with your other point, it really comes down to having the right personnel available to you. To have both the depth and the talent and the right mix to play platoons is very rare, and a blessing. It allows teams to perform at a much higher level than they otherwise would using more traditional substitution patterns. That's why it is so disappointing to me when coaches who have the opportunity to platoon end up squandering it.

 

[bucsrule8872]

First of all there’s absolutely no rule that the two units need to split the same amount of time equally.

You can certainly play one unit more minutes than the other if it makes sense. The only question is it is better to leave a particular unit in or to bring in the other unit and give them a rest. How much time each squad ends up getting is largely based on how they play.

I agree with your other point, it really comes down to having the right personnel available to you. To have both the depth and the talent and the right mix to play platoons is very rare, and a blessing. It allows teams to perform at a much higher level than they otherwise would using more traditional substitution patterns. That's why it is so disappointing to me when coaches who have the opportunity to platoon end up squandering it.

Excellent points.

But if your purpose is to fatigue your opponent by keeping fresh bodies on the floor, wouldn’t you want a fairly even split for your first and second units?