Not sure what the bylaw wording was. I was under the assumption that is was all in the name of "competitive balance" and not a direct shot at private schools.
At any rate, I feel such a rule should apply to all member schools.
Public Guys
- Thread starter JFelice
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Not sure what the bylaw wording was. I was under the assumption that is was all in the name of "competitive balance" and not a direct shot at private schools.
At any rate, I feel such a rule should apply to all member schools.
Yes, that guys like you cant see the difference between playing with what the bus drops off and being able to draw from a HUGE area..
According to that, 2007 Wilmington baseball would have played up a class.. not a great program, just the bus dropped off a great group of baseball kids for a few years... MUCH different than Montini and JCA football...
Rochester getting a bit more than their fair share of high profile transfers.
Thanks for explaining that JCA football program is better than WHS baseball. Regardless, I still think if there is a SF it should apply to all schools.
I also think bringing back FB enrollment as part of the equation would help balance things out, even though this might push Wilmington up to 4A.
1. I agree with epic.
2. I agree with bones in principle, but not in practice. Bones is correct, publics and privates have different rules. Where bone's arguments fall short is in practice. In practice, both publics and privates have advantages the other would like. Publics charge nothing for God's love, privates charge a lot. That fee, those one or two kids that go to publics instead of private really matters. We all know the private advantage, a bigger pool to draw in kids.
In practice, bones likes to point out Rochester as the anomaly. However, while they might be, they're not the only one. MS and WWS likely have the greatest 10 year period in state history, few teams ever beat GW, CG is always good, PR is good quite often, and we can't ignore some of the runs LZ's had. Oh, if forgot LWE seems like a quarterfinalist every year, NC probably had the best team in state history in 98, while while we get hyperbolic about HF we always think they are top five team.
On these boards, and in the stands by ignorant parents, we like to talk about some private domination. That's not the case at all. As far as I am aware, the only private school dominating anyone right now is LA. As for the past, interestingly, it's very similar to the public's. JCA has had a few amazing runs, montini is the current bully on the block, PC's been dominant and of course there is MC and SHG is doing something nice. But guess what, that's it.
There are like 5 schools that dominate, so being lazy and believing that because the way privates and publics get kids the privates have some advantage, how about being precise and stating the reality.
The bottom line is this - no matter whether you want to hear it: IL is a "B to B-" level football state presently. Every single year there are roughly 20 teams that even have a shot at winning a title and they are the same 20 teams every single season. Just think about. How many times has team not on that list of 20 teams (5-8a really 6-8a) come from no where and won a title? Even if it was one a year, which it is not, that's a very small amount.
Publics have advantages, privates have advantages...but only certain schools - and the same certain schools every year - win. That means, certain schools, with good coaching, in population dense areas, know how to use those advantages. It's for that reason, that the same 20 schools win a title every season.
Everyone sucks - even me.
I think you implicity make a great points. In the top classes, there are about 20 teams with realistic shots to win. If we did a 2017 poll right now, we could probably all agree on about 15-16 of these teams.
Much of this is driven by outstanding youth development programs which long-term are driving success. If you look at the perenniel top public teams (CG, PR, WWS, Napervilles, Palatine, LW, etc, almost all of a great youth level programs. In many cases, these are driven by outstanding head coaches who are taking a personal role in improvement
Big investments have been made within the fox valley and you are seeing batavia and the st. charles programs come close to this promised land. Eventually these kids who are winning UYFL national titles will play high school football.
This is the reason the elgin and schaumberg schools despite good size will likely never be competitive long-term until someone takes an interest in building from the ground up.
Much of this is driven by outstanding youth development programs which long-term are driving success. If you look at the perenniel top public teams (CG, PR, WWS, Napervilles, Palatine, LW, etc, almost all of a great youth level programs. In many cases, these are driven by outstanding head coaches who are taking a personal role in improvement
Big investments have been made within the fox valley and you are seeing batavia and the st. charles programs come close to this promised land. Eventually these kids who are winning UYFL national titles will play high school football.
This is the reason the elgin and schaumberg schools despite good size will likely never be competitive long-term until someone takes an interest in building from the ground up.
It is all about the coaching. If Hetlet leaves GW, they become mediocre. If Inserra isn't leading MS they don't beat LA. Coach A built the Montini beast, generations of great coaching happening at SHG and Roch and Lenti is Lenti.
Great coaches are magnets for great players. Whether parents move into boundaries or decide to foot the bill for a private it is all about exposing impressionable young men to a leader that will impart life lessons that build strong character adults that produce positive community impacts.
The rest is just sandbagging
Great coaches are magnets for great players. Whether parents move into boundaries or decide to foot the bill for a private it is all about exposing impressionable young men to a leader that will impart life lessons that build strong character adults that produce positive community impacts.
The rest is just sandbagging
Bones,
Buddy it's really time to stop. Da Brook recruits, you know it and I know it. Should we address the players on your roster currently using addresses or living with people other than their parents and not legal guardians for any other reason than football or hoops? God knows it's not for the educational benefits at da Brook since they fail many of the state standards. I like the kids and coaching staff at da Brook but your narrative is old and just simply untrue that the publics only get what the bus drops off. You(da Brook) sir recruit for your team within the school and more importantly from the entire Chicagoland area.
Buddy it's really time to stop. Da Brook recruits, you know it and I know it. Should we address the players on your roster currently using addresses or living with people other than their parents and not legal guardians for any other reason than football or hoops? God knows it's not for the educational benefits at da Brook since they fail many of the state standards. I like the kids and coaching staff at da Brook but your narrative is old and just simply untrue that the publics only get what the bus drops off. You(da Brook) sir recruit for your team within the school and more importantly from the entire Chicagoland area.
Thank you,
Given that it is difficult to classify the schools similarly due to how they get their students what exactly does making adjustments to the enrollment do? And how do we even quantify it to come up with a 1.65 figure? I agree with @JCHILLTOPPERS on this. When do we decide that the multiplier is right, when you don't win? That's not fair at all.
As for Rochester, why do you think they are having an extraordinary amount of success? Do you think they are putting football teams on the field that other schools their size can't compete with physically? I really don't follow 4A as there aren't really any 'round here. If they are somehow doing something that 90% of the other schools cannot then it should be looked at.
ramblinman has only given descriptions of his system that make it impossible.
I can't really speak to the economics of private schools. It makes no sense to me considering the Church is the richest organization on the planet. I certainly do understand the current economic squeeze and lack of funds for working families to pay an additional $6K-16K per year. Maybe when the president elect brings back all the factory jobs, busts unions, and lowers the minimum wage and the new Education Secy destroys the public school system (even more so) we'll all be forced to somehow pay for private education and this becomes a non discussion. Until then sometimes you just have to know when it just doesn't work. Like a relationship, sometimes no matter how much you want it to work, somethings are incompatible. Doesn't mean one side is bad or wrong, just means it doesn't work.
I recommend reading what I wrote and not responding to some narrative you made up.
LZ has gone thru several HCs in the past 10 years, so while coaches are important, they aren't the be all / end all. The program gets its strength from the feeder system (as does Stevie), but also there's a pride in playing for LZ (which I am currently fearful of right now) and a little bit of history, which brings out a little extra in the players. A system, style and culture are what makes a FB team, and for that matter, many companies and organizations successful.....just as those same factors can prevent success (cite the Chi Cubs up until the past few years).
I cannot say one way or another what type of influx all this has on getting talent from elsewhere. LZ is an affordable community with a darn good education system and reasonable taxes (75%+ which are school district taxes), so it's not out of the question that people would want to move here.
I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility that there could be some "promotion" re the community and way of life. If you have a child who is involved and talented, this would be a place where they can see their child getting a chance to play and demonstrate what they have. Having some great competition and at times success both in conf and outside helps too.
I do have to scratch my head when I see a school like Rochester. Not that it can't happen, but to the frequency that it does feels a little strange. Interestingly the only championship loss in the past 7 years was to an " extremely large boundary" school. IMO that school is part of the reason why SR and MC have had it a little tougher as of late.
I cannot say one way or another what type of influx all this has on getting talent from elsewhere. LZ is an affordable community with a darn good education system and reasonable taxes (75%+ which are school district taxes), so it's not out of the question that people would want to move here.
I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility that there could be some "promotion" re the community and way of life. If you have a child who is involved and talented, this would be a place where they can see their child getting a chance to play and demonstrate what they have. Having some great competition and at times success both in conf and outside helps too.
I do have to scratch my head when I see a school like Rochester. Not that it can't happen, but to the frequency that it does feels a little strange. Interestingly the only championship loss in the past 7 years was to an " extremely large boundary" school. IMO that school is part of the reason why SR and MC have had it a little tougher as of late.
PRokie and Capn,
Replace attract with recruit and you have hit the reason. All these coaches including the public coaches recruit players. I've seen them all at the youth games, at least the ones that are worth anything and constantly winning and in that top 20 referenced above.
Replace attract with recruit and you have hit the reason. All these coaches including the public coaches recruit players. I've seen them all at the youth games, at least the ones that are worth anything and constantly winning and in that top 20 referenced above.
Bones,
Your narrative is consistent and is that publics get what the bus drops off and the privates have an unfair advantage by drawing from a 30 mile radius. Da Brook recruits and gets kids to "move" into district. Understand sometimes they just use addresses, some times they have family to move in with, and sometimes they actually rent or buy in district, but the fact is the programs that typically compete to win, recruit.
Now let's address Da Brook specifically, are you saying that there are not kids on your roster that really shouldn't be? If so, I'm calling you out.
Your narrative is consistent and is that publics get what the bus drops off and the privates have an unfair advantage by drawing from a 30 mile radius. Da Brook recruits and gets kids to "move" into district. Understand sometimes they just use addresses, some times they have family to move in with, and sometimes they actually rent or buy in district, but the fact is the programs that typically compete to win, recruit.
Now let's address Da Brook specifically, are you saying that there are not kids on your roster that really shouldn't be? If so, I'm calling you out.
I'll stick with "attract" thanks.
Too many implications to the word recruiting. If you mean encouraging a kid to choose the coach's high school to play, fine. If you mean offering gifts or benefits to entice kids to choose coach's school, I'm not believing that to be a widespread practice.
Do head coaches set up youth league speeches where they can show off the benefits of their program? Yes and they should. Making kids want to work harder to earn the right to step into a program is what life is all about; setting goals and working hard to achieve them.
And oh by the way, I now have an extra room if any 290 lb 8th grader wants to attend a great high school that needs more beef to compete in 8A.
Too many implications to the word recruiting. If you mean encouraging a kid to choose the coach's high school to play, fine. If you mean offering gifts or benefits to entice kids to choose coach's school, I'm not believing that to be a widespread practice.
Do head coaches set up youth league speeches where they can show off the benefits of their program? Yes and they should. Making kids want to work harder to earn the right to step into a program is what life is all about; setting goals and working hard to achieve them.
And oh by the way, I now have an extra room if any 290 lb 8th grader wants to attend a great high school that needs more beef to compete in 8A.
Capn,
The recruiting that you describe is exactly what I mean. No program out there is lavishing gifts onto the kids they want to come to their schools, not public or private. But not matter how you want to try to side step the "recruiting" tag its recruiting to convince kids why they should play for you. Thank you for being honest and acknowledging it happens. Honestly I think every coach public and private should be doing this type of thing with his kids simply because it means he cares about the program and kids.
The recruiting that you describe is exactly what I mean. No program out there is lavishing gifts onto the kids they want to come to their schools, not public or private. But not matter how you want to try to side step the "recruiting" tag its recruiting to convince kids why they should play for you. Thank you for being honest and acknowledging it happens. Honestly I think every coach public and private should be doing this type of thing with his kids simply because it means he cares about the program and kids.
You still seem to be dreaming up something I said then responding back to your dreams. That's not how a dialogue works. Please, quote the post where I even mention The Beloved. But if they "move" into district then it is what it is.
Still doesn't address the issue you're attempting to deflect from.
Bones,
The multiplier is really just for the playoffs. During the season teams play within their conference most of the time (boundary and non-boundary schools alike). There are 6a,7a and 8a team all competing, which to many isn't fair either. While not every 8a will beat a smaller and by the number a "weaker" seed, they have an advantage (baring some of my comments about feeder, culture, etc.), even if it's bench depth.
It doesn't matter what the multi is, if a boundary school plays a non-boundary school, they have an advantage and that'll be reflective in their regular season records, which then translates to PO selection. Same goes to a boundary school that have a strong feeder program and community support.
IMO I'd like to see classification based on the performance and trends of a team and not based on size or multiplier. Now that would bother a lot of people if we did that because on an national scale it's not done that way, so the best teams in our area won't have the crazy win streaks and the 5 stars won't stand out with the crazy stats. Until this changes nationally it'll be what it'll be. We should stop looking at this as an IHSA problem and think bigger.
The multiplier is really just for the playoffs. During the season teams play within their conference most of the time (boundary and non-boundary schools alike). There are 6a,7a and 8a team all competing, which to many isn't fair either. While not every 8a will beat a smaller and by the number a "weaker" seed, they have an advantage (baring some of my comments about feeder, culture, etc.), even if it's bench depth.
It doesn't matter what the multi is, if a boundary school plays a non-boundary school, they have an advantage and that'll be reflective in their regular season records, which then translates to PO selection. Same goes to a boundary school that have a strong feeder program and community support.
IMO I'd like to see classification based on the performance and trends of a team and not based on size or multiplier. Now that would bother a lot of people if we did that because on an national scale it's not done that way, so the best teams in our area won't have the crazy win streaks and the 5 stars won't stand out with the crazy stats. Until this changes nationally it'll be what it'll be. We should stop looking at this as an IHSA problem and think bigger.
Bones,
I can only guess that your election to refuse to view the defrauding of your tax base by people using addresses to attend DaBrook while living elsewhere justifies the ends of improving football(basketball, etc...). I supposed this willing blindness to cheating the tax and IHSA system is justified because of the way you feel others have an unfair advantage of being able to recruit from a thirty mile radius.
I can only guess that your election to refuse to view the defrauding of your tax base by people using addresses to attend DaBrook while living elsewhere justifies the ends of improving football(basketball, etc...). I supposed this willing blindness to cheating the tax and IHSA system is justified because of the way you feel others have an unfair advantage of being able to recruit from a thirty mile radius.
I'm just now seeing this... its almost like its 2008 again lol
2. Publics charge nothing for God's love. This is the very thing that helps you. As I pointed out years ago, if JCA for example doesn't charge and becomes free, they then become Joliet Central or Joliet West. It is the very selective nature that keeps enrollments down and allows for an abnormal amount of talent for a school of that size. This can only be seen as an advantage for publics if you are competing against larger publics, but as I have shown a school like JCA produces more rivals database guys than Joliet Central, Joliet West, and Plainfield South (all joliet schools) combined despite being a fraction of the size.
Rochester the anomaly. Neither WWS nor MS come close to what Rochester have done. Six 'ships in 7 years is distinctly private. Perhaps MS's 3 r-u's and 3 'ships in 8 years is comparable. However, it was in the top class, nowhere else to go.
8A has had 12 different champs in 16 years so I would not say its anything close to the same team every year.
If they don't like their conference opponents they are certainly welcome to look for a new conference home.
I honestly don't get what you're saying here. Can you clarify? Who are you saying has the advantage and why? You'll note that I don't mention advantage.
ramblinman has been suggesting some sort of classification like that. I am a pragmatist and keep asking how.
My two cents:
There are no problems with how the IHSA sets up the playoffs each year. Keep the multiplier; keep the success factor (or whatever it's called); don't separate the public schools from the private schools; let the public schools keep doing what they're doing as far as football goes; let the private schools keep doing what they're doing as far as football goes. It makes for some damn good football to watch every fall.
Edit: Cheers to a great season everyone. Can't wait for next fall.
There are no problems with how the IHSA sets up the playoffs each year. Keep the multiplier; keep the success factor (or whatever it's called); don't separate the public schools from the private schools; let the public schools keep doing what they're doing as far as football goes; let the private schools keep doing what they're doing as far as football goes. It makes for some damn good football to watch every fall.
Edit: Cheers to a great season everyone. Can't wait for next fall.
Dude... your stance is old and tired. I've looked into your claims and found them without merit. Recruiting isn't a passing comment. Recruiting is multiple conversations over a span of time being generated by the recruiting school.
This was not nor ever the case.
If so, please be SPECIFIC to who we recruited that played here.
Maybe you should go back to gofundme to start a league of all star teams there in the east to compete with your patriots..
Are these the patriots with the lawsuits?
Bones,
1: I agree with the fact that they have an option, but if they were to leave, you need to have a stronger opponent willing to step in. The N & NW confs have been moving things around, but unfortunately for a team like Waukegan, it's not good, even though they're 8A w/ 4K enrollment (they had about 25 varsity).
2: I'm stating that there are IMO, two key advantage situations. One being the B-NB advantage. The other being the Feeder programs and tie in. While I haven't done it, I would be willing to bet that if you take the top 10 from every school in a state and averaged the ranking of those athletes, even simply counting D1, D2, D3 commits, you'd find that there is an advantage to those two groups of schools/programs that I mentioned. I don't know if there are any that can claim both advantages.
3: I'm with you. I suspect it'll take CA, TX, OH, PA, FL and perhaps a couple of others to elicit any change. FWIW, they don't need to, they're on top of the roost. (I knew I read "Animal Farm" for a reason).
FWIW, I must confess, I'm a product of 16 yrs of Catholic Education. I recall the regular victories that the Catholic League Reps put on the Public League Reps. If it wasn't for Lane Tech, there wouldn't have been any Public League competition. This was before IHSA. I wasn't aware of the ability to get students from all over the city, but in retrospect, we had them. To me at the time they were just classmates. I suspect this discussion will live on longer than all of us as the roots precede us and IHSA.
1: I agree with the fact that they have an option, but if they were to leave, you need to have a stronger opponent willing to step in. The N & NW confs have been moving things around, but unfortunately for a team like Waukegan, it's not good, even though they're 8A w/ 4K enrollment (they had about 25 varsity).
2: I'm stating that there are IMO, two key advantage situations. One being the B-NB advantage. The other being the Feeder programs and tie in. While I haven't done it, I would be willing to bet that if you take the top 10 from every school in a state and averaged the ranking of those athletes, even simply counting D1, D2, D3 commits, you'd find that there is an advantage to those two groups of schools/programs that I mentioned. I don't know if there are any that can claim both advantages.
3: I'm with you. I suspect it'll take CA, TX, OH, PA, FL and perhaps a couple of others to elicit any change. FWIW, they don't need to, they're on top of the roost. (I knew I read "Animal Farm" for a reason).
FWIW, I must confess, I'm a product of 16 yrs of Catholic Education. I recall the regular victories that the Catholic League Reps put on the Public League Reps. If it wasn't for Lane Tech, there wouldn't have been any Public League competition. This was before IHSA. I wasn't aware of the ability to get students from all over the city, but in retrospect, we had them. To me at the time they were just classmates. I suspect this discussion will live on longer than all of us as the roots precede us and IHSA.
Damn you Bones.......The Brook recruiting......just for that you go to 9A next year....FWIW.....you need a new recruiter for football...should have that trophy case full having all those blue chippers
Wow so it's really out there and pretty public.I heard something about that too. But not recruiting at all.
They get the transfers because they have a great coach, families still need to physically sell their house and move like the huge majority of other schools need to happen.. why punish a program for success when they are playing by the rules most of the schools play by???
Or rent an apartment, or move in with a family member in district, or use a bogus address etc.