Question for football rule experts...

[FQDawg]

Obviously I am prejudiced when it comes to this question since we just got burned on it, but why is an illegal forward pass a loss of down?

That seems pretty harsh for that particular situation. 10 or 15 yards from the previous spot and replay the down I could see but loss of down seems excessive.

 

[FQDawg]

Obviously I am prejudiced when it comes to this question since we just got burned on it, but why is an illegal forward pass a loss of down?

That seems pretty harsh for that particular situation. 10 or 15 yards from the previous spot and replay the down I could see but loss of down seems excessive.

 

[seshomoru]

Basically, an incomplete pass with some yardage tacked on as well.

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

For example, on fourth down a runner could see that he will not get a first down so he could throw the ball to get a chance at another play. Essentially, you treat an illegal forward pass as if it were a fumble out of bounds 5 yards behind the thrower.

Now, if a defender catches an illegal forward pass, is it an interception? Time to consult the rulebook...

 

[seshomoru]

Now, if a defender catches an illegal forward pass, is it an interception? Time to consult the rulebook...

It would definitely be other team's ball, but as for fumble recovery or interception... good question.

For that matter, why isn't an incomplete pass that is thrown while past the line of scrimmage considered a fumble?

 

[FlabLoser]

For example, on fourth down a runner could see that he will not get a first down so he could throw the ball to get a chance at another play. Essentially, you treat an illegal forward pass as if it were a fumble out of bounds 5 yards behind the thrower.

Now, if a defender catches an illegal forward pass, is it an interception? Time to consult the rulebook...

The play isn't blown dead on an illegal forward pass. The defense could just decline the penalty and take the INT.

 

[DerHntr]

For that matter, why isn't an incomplete pass that is thrown while past the line of scrimmage considered a fumble?

you could "fumble" it 45 yards down the field on fourth down after passing the line of scrimmage instead of punting. this could eliminate punt returns.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

USM beat East Carolina on an illegal forward pass. Trailing 21-20, a USM receiver being tackled near the Pirate end zone passed the ball forward to another receiver who scored a touchdown. The penalty was called and East Carolina's options were to decline and lose by five or accept and have USM kick a chipshot field goal, which they did successfully for a 23-21 win.

 

[lawdawg02]

i remember using this strategy in intramurals one time, and it worked because they didn't call the loss of down (maybe it wasn't a loss-of-down penalty in flag football at the time - i don't remember).

your team is down by 4. you have the ball with time for one last play. your guy is running toward the end zone, but five guys make it impossible for him to get there. time obviously expires after this play. what does the runner do? lob the ball over the defenders' heads to a wide open teammate, even though he is WAY past the line of scrimmage. touchdown, but with a flag. the defense then has two options. (1) decline the penalty - touchdown, they lose. obviously not a good choice. (2) take the penalty - five yards from the spot of the foul. the catch was that the game cannot end on an accepted penalty, unless that penalty included loss of down. so, the offense got one untimed down - one last play to score the touchdown. and, that play was from five yards behind where the illegal forward pass occurred.

if the penalty didn't include loss of down, you could keep doing it until you got lucky and scored. it worked for us either because the ref didn't call it right, or the rule was different at the time. (of course, the flag football rule was probably designed more for illegal pitches than passes, but it's the same concept.)

 

[seshomoru]

For that matter, why isn't an incomplete pass that is thrown while past the line of scrimmage considered a fumble?

you could "fumble" it 45 yards down the field on fourth down after passing the line of scrimmage instead of punting. this could eliminate punt returns.

As long as the other team wasn't dumb enough to pick it up, then they'd get the ball back at the line of scrimmage since they bring the ball back to the spot of the fumble if it goes forward.

 

[DerHntr]

/i has played with my crayons today

 

[seshomoru]

USM beat East Carolina on an illegal forward pass. Trailing 21-20, a USM receiver being tackled near the Pirate end zone passed the ball forward to another receiver who scored a touchdown. The penalty was called and East Carolina's options were to decline and lose by five or accept and have USM kick a chipshot field goal, which they did successfully for a 23-21 win.

Don't they have some kind of "run off" if their is an offensive penalty in the closing minutes? Seems like now, ECU would be able to accept the penalty, and since time ran out with a penalty on the offense, then the game would be over.

 

[seshomoru]

If there was even a question of whether the passer was over the line of scrimmage, there would be dog piles trying to recover the "fumble."

 

[KurtRambis4]

money mike were throwing, who would be the abused....

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Or at least have it set so that a half or game can end with an offensive penalty in this scenario-- which was indeed a rules response to this case.</p>

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

If you decline the penalty, in essence you tell the ref to ignore the fact that the pass was illegal and treat it like a legal pass. However, if the ball is intercepted on, say, the 1 yard line, you could decline the penalty and get the ball 5 yards behind where the thrower released the ball.

 

[GloryDawg]

Now, if a defender catches an illegal forward pass, is it an interception? Time to consult the rulebook...

It would definitely be other team's ball, but as for fumble recovery or interception... good question.

For that matter, why isn't an incomplete pass that is thrown while past the line of scrimmage considered a fumble?

<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Yes it is a interception. It was an illegal pass but a pass, the defenders have the option to accept the penalty or not. Obviously they would not accept it, so it would be an interception. If the ball hit the ground it is not a fumble because it was a pass. Now if he shuffles pass the ball while pass the line of scrimmage it is a illegal forward lateral not a pass so it would be treated as a fumble.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span> If the defense accepts the penalty it is not a loss of down just lost yardage because it is a fumble.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span> Now if the defense recovers the fumble they will decline the penalty for the illegal forward lateral.
<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">To keep in mind is the arm motion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span> Over the head it is a forward pass.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span> Anything else it is shuffle pass.

I have been in this discussion before and it was explain to us by a NAIA official.
Just my .02 cents</p>

 

[MSU CS 2004]

I think there was some miscommunication between you and those officials. There is no such thing as a lateral. There are passes and there are fumbles. If a pass goes towards the opponent's goal line, it is a forward pass. Otherwise, it is a backwards pass. Arm direction is irrelevant. A forward pass is a forward pass, no matter where it was thrown from. Illegal forward passes are different in that, in addition to the penalty, there can be no pass interference or roughing the passer.

 

[Eureka Dog]

if a teammate recovers the fumble, the play is dead and is placed at one of these two positions: (1) The position where the ball was recovered or (2) The position where the ball was recovered. The correct position is the location which is further from the end zone (being attacked by the offense).

I think this is correct, but I've been wrong before.

 

[DerHntr]

i may have reached my quota for the day on this one already. good for me. i get to be right for the rest of the day.

 

[GloryDawg]

I think there was some miscommunication between you and those officials. There is no such thing as a lateral. There are passes and there are fumbles. If a pass goes towards the opponent's goal line, it is a forward pass. Otherwise, it is a backwards pass. Arm direction is irrelevant. A forward pass is a forward pass, no matter where it was thrown from. Illegal forward passes are different in that, in addition to the penalty, there can be no pass interference or roughing the passer.

you can view things the way you want or use terms the way you want. I also don't put much stock in Wikipedia but here is what they say about the Forward Lateral: There is such a term and it is against the rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_lateral

 

[MSU CS 2004]

you can view things the way you want or use terms the way you want. I also don't put much stock in Wikipedia but here is what they say about the Forward Lateral: There is such a term and it is against the rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_lateral

You can use terms the way you want. That is true. If you wish to call an illegal forward pass a "forward lateral," you have that right. However, the term does not exist in the NFHS, NCAA or NFL rule books.

In the rule books, words have very specific definitions. Officials must know these definitions in order to properly rule on a play. I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm just trying to clear up misconceptions about the rules when I see them on here. "The ground cannot cause a fumble" is a popular one. Saying there is any kind of difference between an overhand pass and a shuffle pass is another.

A forward pass is any ball that is thrown so that it travels towards the opponent's goal line. It is legal only if thrown by Team A (the offense at the snap) in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of possession, before any ball carrier has crossed the neutral zone and is the first forward pass thrown during that down.

You said there was a difference between a forward lateral and an illegal forward pass. There is not. One is a fan term that has no meaning to officials. The other is a foul in the rule book. And it is a foul regardless of the manner in which it was thrown.

/TSSAA football official

 

[GloryDawg]

you can view things the way you want or use terms the way you want. I also don't put much stock in Wikipedia but here is what they say about the Forward Lateral: There is such a term and it is against the rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_lateral

You can use terms the way you want. That is true. If you wish to call an illegal forward pass a "forward lateral," you have that right. However, the term does not exist in the NFHS, NCAA or NFL rule books.

In the rule books, words have very specific definitions. Officials must know these definitions in order to properly rule on a play. I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm just trying to clear up misconceptions about the rules when I see them on here. "The ground cannot cause a fumble" is a popular one. Saying there is any kind of difference between an overhand pass and a shuffle pass is another.

A forward pass is any ball that is thrown so that it travels towards the opponent's goal line. It is legal only if thrown by Team A (the offense at the snap) in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of possession, before any ball carrier has crossed the neutral zone and is the first forward pass thrown during that down.

You said there was a difference between a forward lateral and an illegal forward pass. There is not. One is a fan term that has no meaning to officials. The other is a foul in the rule book. And it is a foul regardless of the manner in which it was thrown.

/TSSAA football official

My intrepetation of the rule was correct and you posted what I said. I just used words the NCAA don't. I really don't care what the NCAA calls it. They are a bunch of idiots in my book. Forward Lateral is what I grew up calling it and I am not going to change that to make NCAA happy. I bet you a donut hole that if you went back 20 years or so the NCAA rule book would use the same term. The NAIA offical knew exactly what we were talking about when we asked. Yeah they might have called it something else in the rule book at the time but why argue over a old school term.