Question for those wanting a tougher OOC schedule.

PBRME

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Feb 12, 2004
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Say we lose to OK State, finish 3-1 OOC, and miss a bowl with only 5 wins. How would that change your stance, if any, on adding tougher OOC opponents to the toughest conference schedule in the country?

Sorry, it was the best MSU related topic I could come up with. Trying to break up all the OT's at the top of the page.
 

Rezpup

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May 4, 2009
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I would hate it because the practice time for bowls is important for the program and even small bowls are still fun to me. Even though I prefer four patsies most seasons I still want a decent cross sectional game every now and then.

Also, I think it's impossible to avoid non conference BCS scheduling every single season with pressure coming from the tv networks for better match ups out of conference. Too much pressure on the AD's and commissioners of all the conferences to avoid it.
 

DawgatAuburn

All-Conference
Apr 25, 2006
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I'm not who you posed the question to because I don't want to upgrade it anyway. Until we show that we can outclass the type of teams we are playing, there's no need to strengthen it.

2009 - blew out Jxn St, somewhat easy win over MTSU, lost to Houston and Ga Tech, both of whom were quality opponents that year
2010 - blew out Memphis and Alcorn; beat Houston on the road with Keenum hurt and had to fight like crazy to come back and beat a bad UAB team at homecoming
2011 - blew out Memphis and UT-Martin, needed overtime (and a mistake from a freshman QB) to beat La Tech at home, and in perhaps the least inspiring game of the year, changed quarterbacks at halftime of the UAB game and rallied to win over a winless Blazer team
2012 - blew out Jackson State and MTSU, steadily pulled away from South Alabama though not very impressively, and had to fight tooth and nail to win at Troy

I'm not seeing much evidence there that suggests we are ready to upgrade the OOC schedule. The goal at this point is bowl games. If we were in the running for the BCS, then maybe strength of schedule should be considered. We're not. We just need wins so we can be in the running in our good years for the upper level SEC bowl tie ins.

The history leads me to believe that in 2013 we will:
Blow out Alcorn, have a relatively easy although unimpressive win over Troy, and a "decided in the second half" type win over Bowling Green, and lose to Oklahoma State. I will not be surprised if we lose to Bowling Green. Archive it.
 

DAWG61

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Feb 26, 2008
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Only person wanting a tougher OOC schedule is the Pac12 asshat that brings up MSU constantly on having a weak OOC schedule. He doesn't have to play in the West though.
 

RocketDawg

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I would rather not have a schedule like last year even if it means missing a bowl. I think that schedule, with the fact that Auburn and Tennessee really were bad (which was not known when the schedule was made) really messed up our team mentally ... we got the idea that we were really good when we were not all that great. An embarrassing nosedive resulted.

I'd say 3 patsies, 1 BCS OOC, and that along with the conference schedule would be about right. But we don't have to schedule somebody like Oklahoma State, who I believe is ranked in the top 15 pre-season. Of course, OkSt was sorta dictated by television but it won't be that way every year.

We should try somebody like Georgia Tech, Duke, maybe even NC State or could go further and get a relatively easy B1G or Big 12 or even Pac 12 team. I think games like those would generate a lot more interest and we'd have a decent chance of beating them (yes, even Ga Tech for the GT lovers here ... they haven't been very good lately. We had the misfortune of scheduling them in Croom's last year and Mullen's first year, and should have beat the under Mullen).

If Saban gets his way, all our OOC opponents will be BCS at some point in the future. And Saban is a powerful man.
 
Nov 16, 2005
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And boom goes the dynamite. There's no need in playing big OOC games when we play in the toughest conference and toughest division in college football. I don't care about the criticism. Until we reach the level where we are really truly competing with LSU and Bama (which will probably never happen) we need to play easy games. And I know people are going to say "oh this is poor little MSU talk" but it's just reality folks.
 

Son_of_34

Junior
Sep 30, 2012
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And boom goes the dynamite. There's no need in playing big OOC games when we play in the toughest conference and toughest division in college football. I don't care about the criticism. Until we reach the level where we are really truly competing with LSU and Bama (which will probably never happen) we need to play easy games. And I know people are going to say "oh this is poor little MSU talk" but it's just reality folks.

I don't give a 17 if w played every SWAC team in the state as long as we make it to a bowl game. Not to directly compare but last year Alabama played Western Carolina, Western Kentucky, Flordia Atlantic and Michigan. Don't think their fans are complaining about wanting to see them play a "tougher" OOC sechdule.
 

121Josey

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Oct 30, 2012
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Not against soft OOC. Just don't play FBS schools.

The reason we have a high strength of schedule is partially because the people in our conference beat us. So, in part, the strength of schedule has a lot to do with the team's play. We control that part. We can't control the play or schedules of our opponents.

Let's admit we got the shaft on the schedule this year - only two games between bye weeks and having to go to USCe.

Given the 3-1 OCC record, if we can't find 3 wins (of 8) in conference, we don't deserve to go bowling. In any year, we should win most of our home games. If not, we watch in December. However, playing another OOC bowl team on a neutral field is a fair test for bowl worthiness.
 

DawgatAuburn

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Apr 25, 2006
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No offense Rocket, but there's not much of that I agree with.

I would rather not have a schedule like last year even if it means missing a bowl.

Give me a bowl game over no bowl game every time.

I think that schedule, with the fact that Auburn and Tennessee really were bad (which was not known when the schedule was made) really messed up our team mentally ... we got the idea that we were really good when we were not all that great. An embarrassing nosedive resulted.

We might have thought that we were better than we were, but the fact is we lost to the National Champs, the team that beat the National Champs, the team that ALMOST beat the National Champs and our rejuvenated rivals. Three of those would have beaten us at any point in the season. Perhaps all four.

I'd say 3 patsies, 1 BCS OOC, and that along with the conference schedule would be about right. But we don't have to schedule somebody like Oklahoma State, who I believe is ranked in the top 15 pre-season. Of course, OkSt was sorta dictated by television but it won't be that way every year.

We should try somebody like Georgia Tech, Duke, maybe even NC State or could go further and get a relatively easy B1G or Big 12 or even Pac 12 team. I think games like those would generate a lot more interest and we'd have a decent chance of beating them (yes, even Ga Tech for the GT lovers here ... they haven't been very good lately. We had the misfortune of scheduling them in Croom's last year and Mullen's first year, and should have beat the under Mullen).
We don't have enough patsies, at least FBS ones, to do that. That's the point. UAB, Troy, MTSU, Louisiana Tech, South Alabama...all have played us hard and we were fortunate to win some of those games. We've killed Memphis and SWAC teams pretty consistently but there aren't enough Memphis-type teams to go around, and you have to limit your FCS games. Ga Tech is usually an upper level ACC team under Paul Johnson, whatever that is worth. Their 2009 team was the best recently though, you are right. Cutcliffe had Duke in a bowl last year. NC State is a bowl team more often than not. The bottom feeders from the other conferences you named (like Kansas, Indiana, Washington State, etc) might be betters shots at winning, but I doubt they are looking to schedule anything with an SEC team. They're trying to survive in their own conferences and looking for OOC games they can win too.

Scott's in a tough position here. A big part of the equation is selling tickets and having people in the stands. People are more likely to buy and attend for "name" opponents. But a bigger part of the equation is winning and getting to bowl games. It helps the budget (well, if you keep your expenses low on the bowl trips, which most teams don't), it keeps fans happy, it can't hurt recruiting, and it's good exposure. Personally I would be fine with as many sure wins as I could schedule and get my BCS conference opponent in a bowl game.
 

johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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Not against soft OOC. Just don't play FBS schools.



Given the 3-1 OCC record, if we can't find 3 wins (of in conference, we don't deserve to go bowling.

Can't avoid FCS (I assume that's what you meant). Too expensive to have buy games with only FBS teams. The FCS game is a cheap way to get a home game.

And screw deserving to go to bowls; if we don't deserve to be in a bowl, then we need the extra practice time even more. Besides, if we go 4-0 in OOC and 2-6 in the SEC West, we will likely be more deserving than many other teams that are bowling.
 

121Josey

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Oct 30, 2012
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Can't avoid FCS (I assume that's what you meant). Too expensive to have buy games with only FBS teams. The FCS game is a cheap way to get a home game.

And screw deserving to go to bowls; if we don't deserve to be in a bowl, then we need the extra practice time even more. Besides, if we go 4-0 in OOC and 2-6 in the SEC West, we will likely be more deserving than many other teams that are bowling.

Good point on the FCS.

Practice makes perfect, right? It sure didn't help the performances in the last two bowl games. It cost us our best running back this past year. State's last two bowl games has shown its tendency for lethargy in big games. The Gator Bowl only reaffirmed what everyone knew. The staff did not give younger players significant opportunities. Playing in a bowl game and on TV is great until you play poorly and get embarrassed. Sometimes having to sit and watch can be a rewarding motivator.

The model proposed was 3-1 OCC, 2-6 SEC (victories over Kentucky and who? whoever is also in the cellar?). Not much difference between 5-7 and 6-7.
 

dawgs.sixpack

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Oct 22, 2010
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won't change my opinion at all. of course i don't get my rocks off to liberty bowl and bbva compass bowl births at this point in the mullen era. if we can't win 6 games with 3 gimmes out of conference, then we don't deserve to go bowling anyway imo.
 

johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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What I don't get is we already have a schedule most fans would drool over if they want a tough schedule. We are generally going to play 3 teams from the top 15, and another 3 to 5 teams that are in the top 30ish teams. One FCS game that has to be there for financial reasons. So the question is what do we want to do with the other 3 OOC games. Schools from other conferences get to play crappy teams for half their conference games. It would be nice if we could play the same crappy teams they play as OOC games, but bottom feeders from other BCS conferences aren't looking for a game with MSU because they are trying to be bowl eligible too. Seeing as we are generally always going to have one of the toughest schedules in college football, and it's not really feasible to have a steady diet of weak teams from BCS conferences, it really doesn't hurt my feelings if we play 3 bad OOC teams.
 

drt7891

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Dec 6, 2010
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I see both the positives and negatives on a tougher OOC schedule... but let's look at it this way... the start of this season has a much different feel to it. Mullen's 4 years to this point have been JSU twice and Memphis twice before playing Auburn... two gimme wins. This won't be that way. This will definitely affect how we prepare this upcoming camp, and will give our team an entirely different motivation.. and I hope it works out well for us.

I'll also say many people griped about how weak our schedule was last year... our best win was MTSU, by a long shot. If we can beat OK State, people will feel entirely different about our scheduling.
 

Shamoan

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Jun 27, 2013
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we need to schedule teams like illinois, indiana, purdue, kansas, iowa state, etc... i think that is a good compromise. you get a big 6 conference, yet have better than a 50/50 shot at winning the game most years if you field a halfway decent team. i think its imperative that we continue to make it to bowl games even at the cost of the S.O.S., but playing as a perennial cellar dweller in the sec west automatically means that you are playing 4 top 25 teams if not 5 or 6. its freaking murder's row when auburn and arkansas are good and playing a team that has better than a 40% chance of beating us for an ooc game (would like better than a 50% chance as alluded to above) is just asking for it to come back and bite us in the ***.

i have read here before that some of these teams wont play us (illinois, indiana, etc). for those that know, what is the reason behind this?
 

PBRME

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D@A said it pretty well. Those teams have nothing to gain by playing an SEC team. They're trying to become bowl eligible just like us.
 

Shamoan

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Jun 27, 2013
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Warning: wall of text

they have about as much to gain as an oregon, oklahoma state, west virginia or georgia tech...they might even have more of a reason. perhaps im overlooking the obvious, but what do these teams gain in playing us that say, an illinois or kansas doesnt gain? from a competitive play perspective, it should be right down their alley, which is clearly not the case since none of these schools are looking to exchange a home and home with us.

beating any sec team would be a big deal for them and its not like we are some juggernaut. we are the low hanging sec fruit and seemingly would entice somebody at some point to start up a conversation. i would think getting an sec scalp might be enough for them to step out of their comfort zone. obviously, this line of thinking is NOT how they operate as evidence by the lack of these type games for us, but to me, it makes sense. its not like they are stepping up to play an sec power, merely their equivalent in another big conference.

i get that they are looking for winnable ooc games, but that is exactly what we are, or in my mind, what we should be to them. im playing devils advocate a bit because there is obviously some reason these types of teams dont wanna play us, im just trying to wrap my head around it. its not like playing msu is a guaranteed loss for them yet these teams are looking at us like we are alabama or lsu and avoiding us like the plague.

since 2005:
lsu: washington, arizona st, arizona (toss up)
georgia: colorado, arizona st
tennessee: cal(might be pushing it), ucla (see cal), nc st
south carolina: unc, nc st, navy?,
kentucky: indiana
vandy:wake forest, duke, army?, northwestern, uconn?
ole miss: mizzou (ooc), wake forest
auburn: washington st, kansas st, (utah st?, new mexico st?)
arkansas: utah st?, rutgers

hell, i even left out some big east teams like temple, south florida, ucf, louisville (dont want to play them anytime soon), cincinatti, and didnt mention the some other well known, but lesser opponents.

meanwhile, since 2005, our ooc slate has either been feast (ie, **** nobody wants to see or stuff that doesnt push the needle): murray st, tulane, memphis, houston (well...), uab, jacksonville st, gardner-webb, la tech, mid tennessee, se la, jackson st, alcorn st, tenn-martin, south alabama, troy.

or fammine: west virginia, ga tech....and before that, it was oregon, byu?, and ok state....and now ok state again.

as far as ooc games go, we clearly are not doing what the rest of the sec is doing. Everyone is scheduling the warm-up games and cupcakes....i have no problem with that and encourage that. the one thing other sec schools are doing is scheduling branded schools that have a sizable following and national name recognition.

i didnt play with the numbers or manipulate things to sway...out of that admittedly short sample size, our fellow sec schools have proven they can get games with nc state (since someone mentioned it), arizona st, indiana, wake forest, duke, the armed forces school (diminishes my point a little, but they have name recognition), unc, washinton, washington st, colorado, northwestern....

to be fair, i think ga tech was a poor attempt to accomplish this same type scheduling, and maybe to a much lesser extent byu, but in both cases, we missed the mark of scheduling these types of games. since 2005, we largely schedule no-name creampuffs or directional schools or a team that ends up in the top 15. not good....we are missing something somewhere down the line.

and so the record is clear, im all for the guaranteed wins, but we can make things a little more interesting and still accomplish the same goal with smarter scheduling, but with our luck, we schedule washington state and by the time that home and home rolls around, they will be national championship contenders.
 

57stratdawg

Heisman
Dec 1, 2004
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Say we lose to OK State, finish 3-1 OOC, and miss a bowl with only 5 wins. How would that change your stance, if any, on adding tougher OOC opponents to the toughest conference schedule in the country?

Sorry, it was the best MSU related topic I could come up with. Trying to break up all the OT's at the top of the page.

If we beat a deadbeat team, we're going to be in the Liberty or BBVA bowl. Would spending quality time in Memphis or Birmingham really make you feel better about the program or Mullen? Our season rides on how we perform against Auburn, Arkansas, Ok State, Kentucky, LSU and OM. If we don't make a bowl, it's because we lost 4 or 5 out of those games. Going to the 'Better Luck Next Year' bowl will not be icing on the cake.
 

maroonmania

Senior
Feb 23, 2008
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We`ve maxed out with Mullen. No need to go with tougher OCC scheduling right now

Well I guess the propaganda is working on some MSU fans. Our upperclassmen are currently made up of Mullen's 2 weakest recruiting classes ('10 and '11) and we are still playing with a QB that doesn't even fit what Mullen wants to run offensively yet we've maxed out. I will admit that I have doubts that Mullen and staff can ever recruit at the level it will take to truly be an SEC title contender based on what I've seen them do but no way do I believe we are maxed out right now.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Depends on when you play the cupcake. Throw them in as a breather before a big SEC game--I can live with that. JSU might as well be an open date. Spoon them in before LSU. But to seize up the entire early schedule with them so that by the time you game to Bama, your players stand there blinking because they've never seen speed that big. And it was even close. Lose a close one, and you make adjustments. How do you adjust to a rout? It just snowballed last year, and we got worse every game, not better. You need to throw in some competition early to expose your weaknesses, so you can adjust for the meat of the SEC schedule.
 

RougeDawg

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Jul 12, 2010
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One item most of you are overlooking is the fact that...

Our most difficult OOC game comes in week 1. Mullen has shown he can prep the team well for a game when he has more than one week to prepare. We have an unlimited amount of time to get ready for this game. Plus, We have looked sharp in every opening game under Mullen and have been the better prepared teams in each of his bowl game. Him leaving Russell in this past GB, was difference in winning and losing. Defense and team overall played well enough to win.

It's almost like a Bowl game to start off the season. The team "should" be amped up and ready to hit another team and hopefully our size will win out in the end. Win it, which I believe we have a great shot, and you catapult into hopefully a 8-9 win season. Lose and you find out what type of character we have. I think playing a tough foe week 1 will help us against auburn.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Openers are definitely trickier. I would say the team with the most returning starters has the edge. That gives OSU a slight edge (ranked 41, MSU 58). Of course if you got all your premier impact players back, that doesn't mean as much. I have no idea what OSU returns. Interestingly, the U of OM is tied for 5th but Texas, who they play early is tied for #1. We could see a breakout year for Texas if Diaz gets the D rolling. http://www.philsteele.com/Blogs/2013/JAN13/DBJan21.html
 

thatsbaseball

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May 29, 2007
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If Mullen hasn`t signed some good QB`s (plural) that "fit what Mullen wants to run offensively" after 5 years it ain`t gonna happen. Throwing schollies away on kids with famous last names (Favre) and kids that he had ZERO chance of getting to campus (Sandberg) is purely to keep the sheep happy. So yea the propaganda is working quite well.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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I agree that was folly, but he has to get someone. Why wouldn't a good QB want to go to an SEC school, with a decent O line, when he knows he has a good chance of playing in a couple years? I don't get it.
 

johnson86-1

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Mullen had two ****** recruiting classes

If Mullen hasn`t signed some good QB`s (plural) that "fit what Mullen wants to run offensively" after 5 years it ain`t gonna happen. Throwing schollies away on kids with famous last names (Favre) and kids that he had ZERO chance of getting to campus (Sandberg) is purely to keep the sheep happy. So yea the propaganda is working quite well.

And clearly figured something out after that. Well see if he figured it out enough to compete in the secw (doesn't look like it so far), but I don't know how you'd look at that and say we've hit a ceiling. We're paying the price for his past screw ups in recruiting and I think will probably still be paying for it this year, but it seems like an upward trend to me. He did pretty well when he had playmakers but huge gaps in talent. He did ok with a full team but no playmakers. I fully expect to get better over the next 3 years as the talent level improves and gets older, and I think the talent level he's recruiting right now ca get us to competing for the 3rd spot in the secw. He'll have to step up recruiting to do any better than that, but that's a pretty decent step for right now.
 

DawgatAuburn

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I can't reply to that whole thing but here are some points:

1. It's useless to compare us to who LSU, UGA, Auburn and UT play. We are not on their level. I suspect when those schools call about a home and home, the opponent listens because they know it's going to be on TV, it's a great trip for their fans, and even if it's a sure loss, it doesn't hurt them in their conference or in most cases, the BCS.
2. Some of those games were of the made for TV variety, like LSU-Oregon and UT-NC State. One shot deals, not home and home.
3. The term Big 6 is about as useless as student-athlete. There's the SEC, Big 10, Big 12 and Pac 12. The ACC and American Athletic are miles behind with a couple of exceptions. Not much difference in my opinion in playing a low level ACC/American team and an upper division MAC, CUSA or Sun Belt team. Wake Forest or Temple doesn't do much more for me than Louisiana Tech, Arkansas State or Directional Michigan.
4. In a couple of our previous OOC cases, we were just the victim of bad timing. We were horrid in the Oregon years and they were beginning their ascent to elite status. We were not much better in the WVU years, and they had arguably their best teams ever with White and Slaton. We also caught GA Tech in an 11-1 season for them, correct? My point is those were decent efforts but bad timing on our part.
 

maroonmania

Senior
Feb 23, 2008
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If Mullen hasn`t signed some good QB`s (plural) that "fit what Mullen wants to run offensively" after 5 years it ain`t gonna happen. Throwing schollies away on kids with famous last names (Favre) and kids that he had ZERO chance of getting to campus (Sandberg) is purely to keep the sheep happy. So yea the propaganda is working quite well.

Granted Mullen's QB recruiting has been disappointing overall BUT we do have 2 dual threat QBs on the roster now (RSO and True FR) however Mullen is not going to start those guys over a 5th year SR.
 

Shamoan

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Jun 27, 2013
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when dealing in terms of potential wins and losses and avoid the loss to survive in their conference (which was the original argument), it makes way more sense to play msu than any of those teams. i also listed teams that were more our speed to show that those teams are doing exactly what we are wanting to do (uk, vandy, ole miss). as far as tv is concerned, that might have been the case in the past, but with espn and subsequent sec network, that wont be an issue, but i agree that it might have been in the past.

true, some were a made for tv deal, but i just listed the low level schools (ie teams i wouldnt mind playing), not the high exposure matchups for the most part. few of the ones i listed were one-time deals.

the term big 6 was simply used to illustrate the point and relate the idea i was trying to convey...point being that being a lower member of the big 6 would push the needle considerably more so than the average non big 6 school you could randomly pick (a term of convenience if you will). i have no problem playing some of our traditional opponents like uab, memphis, tulane, etc, but murray st or alcorn replaced by wake forest, washington, washington st, colorado, northwestern, etc....surely you would agree that those have more sizzle than the very lowest rung of opponents we play year in and out. vandy has a nice schedule and i think we would all agree they offer everything we do minus the modest road draw to a big city on a home and home. they have played northwestern, wake, duke, and army. each and every one of those looks 2000 x better than alcorn imo.

again, i totally agree on the bad timing on our part, but at the same time, its not like we were picking on the weakling on the block back when those were scheduled. georgia tech is the 23rd all time winningest ncaa school and will most likely always be in the top half of the acc....so not that safe of a bet on our part. full disclosure, there are some teams that i wouldnt mind playing on the top 50 list, but those are largely programs dropping in that ranking and clearly tending downward (colorado, syracuse, pitt, washington, navy, army, minnesota, virginia, boston college, utah, rutgers, maryland).

my point was that EVERY school that i investigated from the kentuckys and vanderbilts to the georgias and lsus are getting the low level power conference matchups. we have not done that whatsoever. that wasnt cherry-picked data i presented, and with such a short sample size (2005-2013), it kind of tells the story of our scheduling, which was my point that its either a team we thunder-stomp or a team that will most likely beat us. i propose that IF we decide to go the way of a big name team, let that big name team be one that we will beat more often than not. im not saying replace all the lower games to make them more interesting, rather replace oregon with indiana (like kentucky), or replace ga tech with wake or duke (like ole miss and vanderbilt). kentucky schedules well, vandy schedules well, auburn schedules well more often than not, because they schedule beatable sizzle teams. teams that get asses in the seats and eyes in front of the tv, not because they are a football power, rather, they have a sizable contingent and name recognition.

im just tired of scheduling sure losses or games that look like losses 3 or 4 years out. i think we agree on most points, but i think where we differ is WHY we dont look that tantalizing to other schools the same way lower level power conference schools look tantalizing to me and us as sec fans, and to further confound my confusion, fellow low level sec teams as well as high level teams are getting those types of games (vandy, uk, up to alabama and lsu). why are we getting left at the station? im clearly missing something (assuming that we have made contact to those other schools and are getting rebuffed). i dunno, maybe those calls arent getting made....its total speculation at this point, but frustrating nonetheless.
 
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I would hate it because the practice time for bowls is important for the program and even small bowls are still fun to me. Even though I prefer four patsies most seasons I still want a decent cross sectional game every now and then.

Odds are you'll have more fun at the game in Houston than you would at a hypothetical 6-6 Birmingham Bowl against South Florida. As for the extra practice being important, I know coaches say that but is there any evidence it makes any difference at all?

Same with Ole Miss this year. Going to Austin will probably be much more fun than a lower tier bowl. Plus you have time to plan and don't get completely gouged on tickets.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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3rd in the West? I don't see it. That means we finish ahead of three out of ATM, LSU, Bama, OM and Auburn--all off which are beating us badly in recruiting. If OM racks up a another bumper crop, we are looking at struggling to finish 5th, more likely 6th.. No way Auburn stays in the dumper.