Question for Todd4State and other MSU baseball fans -

atlwebdawg

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Sep 25, 2008
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We all have heard reasons why we suck in baseball, but I've tried to think for (years) why we can't dominate in baseball like we did in the late 80's, especially like the '89 season. (we hit around .310, hit 98 home runs, were 54-14 and 20-5 in the SEC)

Could it be that once other schools realized that you can make decent money on baseball, it made it pretty easy to win and win big and that put us, immediately at a disadvantage b/c we can't compete with other schools in terms of $$$ and fanbase, etc?

Several schools had more money and eventually built better facilities...they were in larger states and over time it was easy to recruit top players b/c, well b/c other schools had MORE TO OFFER than MSU

Just to name a few - -Florida, South Carolina, Georgia, LSU - South Carolina is the only school i wouldn't think off hand that had a great talent base --- maybe they recruit nationally. I've always thought OleMiss could dominate with the right coach - their school just fits baseball players - the city, the co-ed atmosphere - just works for baseball. I was worried when they got the right coach, that they could dominate instate..esp if they got someone who knew the SEC and what it would take to win.

Why can't MSU be in the top 3 or 4 in the SEC? Is it b/c we didn't have the right coaching staff? I'm at a loss and i hate that we can't dominate in the sport that i loved as a teenager.

What has to happen in order for us to compete in the top 5 in this league? We are surrounded by schools that have a bigger facilities, more money, bigger stadiums....
 

Coach34

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Jul 20, 2012
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the other schools started to care. Once that happened, our reign was over. Plus, Polk didnt take advantage of his chances in the 1980's and win one. That would have gone a long way in helping us stay on top.

We simply didnt capitalize on the head start we had over the rest of the conference. We could have added so much more to Dudy-Noble, but instead just sat idly by and watch everyone else catch-up and then pass us by.
 

Todd4State

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Mar 3, 2008
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Baseball players do like women.

But to answer your question(s) I think there is a lot of factors to it. I do think what you said about other schools realizing that they could make money off of baseball is part of it.

I'm going to focus on us- First of all in the 80's it was MSU and LSU, sometimes Florida. I think it all starts up top with the AD and his lack of vision. I think LT kind of felt like baseball would take care of itself. Even when we weren't very good, we were drawing well. I think LT pretty much let Polk do whatever he wanted. We had the reputation as having the best baseball facility and a great coach, and people were coming. Having books written, top MLB players like Clark and Palmeiro, etc. I think the problem really started in my opinion when Polk wanted to leave in 1992 and we essentially wouldn't let him. We honestly probably could have gotten someone like Augie Garrido if we wanted to. We chose to beg Polk back, and the team went down until we had the top class in 1994, and they went to Omaha and Polk left. Pat McMahon did a good job, but I remember we had a lot of fans who much of the time wanted Polk back even then. McMahon leaves and we hire Polk back. I think that killed us. When he was hired back, I threw all kinds of f-bombs and told people that day, that hiring Polk set us back 10 years. Guess what? We're in year nine.

The problem with it was basically what we were saying was "We're more concerned about a group of people- Polk's Croonies rather than winning. As long as we're classy." It wasn't a hire that was exciting that would fire up the fanbase. It was pretty ho-hum. I think at that moment, it split our fanbase. You had people like me that wanted a coach that would take MSU to the next level. You had Polk's croonies who are essentially good ol' boys who think that Tupelo HS is a high quality baseball program in the baseball world. Nothing agianst Tupelo, they think the same about New Hope as well. That's what they watch. They have no clue what is going on in Baton Rouge, Oxford, or etc. All they knew was 1. Polk has won. 2. Polk was a lot better than Bragan- who incidentally yelled a lot 3. Polk wrote a book. They were told that we had the best baseball stadium in America, and they took it at heart. Arkansas? Whatever. Also, a far as Ole Miss, they were just in flat out denial. They were a fluke for 10 years and counting now. The people with the clout had no clue, and have no clue about what was going on. Our recruiting was archaic. We were recruiting exclusively out of a baseball camp- you just can't do that. In the meantime, Ole Miss and LSU had been on these kids for at least a couple of years before they even filled out a camp application. Polk thought that they would come to play for him, and it just doesn't work that way. On top of it, you had McNickle who didn't know what he was doing ruining our best arms- and we're still paying for it now to a degree with guys like Paxton Pace, and are just now getting out of it with these freshmen pitchers. On top of all of this, you had Polk and his agendas. The house finally crashed in in 2008. Then we hire Cohen, and I think it split the fans even more. One hand, you have the Polk Croonies bitching about him yelling at people and saying that his guys can't hit, at the same time, these players have had their best seasons under Cohen. It's pretty obvious that they're trying to run him off, or exert some kind of control by making him not cuss or whatever. And I think it's mainly because Polk didn't want Cohen. Then you have people like me that are like- "Wait a minute here- these players suck. Joe Torre couldn't win with these players".

Now what is it going to take for us to get back to the elite of the SEC? Well, you've got to have players. I know we can do it. If anything, we have more of a chance. Why? We're in the exact same region as those other schools that you menitoned. I think our co-eds are just as good as Ole Miss's, I think the town is just as good, and I think we have as much to offer as a school as anyone else in the SEC including Vandy. Seriously. But the difference between MSU and the others and where we have the advantage is this: We care about it. A lot. Baseball players want to play in front of good crowds. Why do you think baseball players want to play in St. Louis, for the Cubs, for the Yankees, Red Sox, etc. and not the Marlins? Look at their attendance. We can get good crowds. Who wants to play in front of no one where no one cares? We can point to our past and say that we've done it before. And not too long ago. To me, the key is identifying the best players possible in the region and getting them here. The way we were doing it under Polk, we weren't doing that. You get good players, you win. You win, people show up. People show up, and stuff gets done to the stadium. Why do people not go right now? Because they suck. It really is that simple. Now to win a NC, what we have to do is get to Omaha consistently- like three out of four years until we finally win one. Right now, we need to focus on a Regional.

Now as far as personnel, we need at least seven pitchers that we can count on- 3 weekend, 1 midweek, 2 set-up, and a closer. We need a balanced lineup with speed at the top, and power in the middle. We need guys that can run and guys what can play defense. We need guys that want to win for MSU and not a coach and will do whatever it takes to win and not let anyone stop them.

Again, I think one big thing that we can all do is join the dugout club and go to games. Not even all of the games- just go to 3-5 at your convenience- and I'm talking to everyone.

Winning takes care of everything. Even the Polk croonies will change their tune if Cohen wins. And his style will work at MSU because the style he wants to play waas the same style that Gregory had- hard-nosed team that did what it took to win. I feel like if Cohen doesn't work out, I don't think it's the end of MSU baseball or anything like that as long as we hire wisely. And honestly, I would suggest someone like O'Conner at Virginia who has no ties to Polk or MSU simply because of the hard feelings that people have towards Cohen and Raffo. I'll say this- if Cohen doesn't succeed at MSU it's going to most likely be because the fans couldn't all get 100% behind him. I'm not talking about the people on sixpack that ***** when we lose. I'm talking about the Polk Croonies.
 

atlwebdawg

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Sep 25, 2008
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Thanks - i think you said it best...

"Now what is it going to take for us to get back to the elite of the SEC? Well, you've got to have players."

I don't think the majority of fans realize just how awful the talent base has been. We want to think MSU baseball doesn't DESERVE to be this bad for so long. We want instant gratification, just like everything else in life. To all of those that think we should get rid of Cohen - you're crazy. We have to give him several years to get a full roster of his players.

At MSU (and this is for all sports) our best scenario is to have a coach that either graduated from Miss. State, or for someone who has just been here long enough to fall in love with the place. John Cohen loves this place - he's proven himself - he probably regrets some things this year on how he's treated some players, but at the same time - there are probably players right now that need to man up and just play like we did when we won 50 some odd games a year. Does anyone remember just how tough Pete Young was???? Damn he 'defined' MSU baseball to me.

Cohen is the right hire, he's a relentless recruiter - he knows that is how it has to be - and it's how we became such a great program before the decline.

Give him time - he deserves it b/c the talent and program level he inherited was beyond awful.
 

Todd4State

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Mar 3, 2008
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this is the worst stretch that we've ever had. By far. That's why people think we should be better. Cohen is part of that, whether it's his fault or not. It's really no different than Alabama fans being pissed off at Shula or whoever their coach is. We have high expectations, and just going to a regional isn't good enough. I think that's a really good thing. And that's one reason why I think we will get back. We do have a large number of fans that expect to win and demand it. We are just now getting a coach that demands excellence as well. I'm glad that there are people that are pissed off that we aren't winning- even if their angst is directed at me sometimes. One thing I will never, ever, ever, call anyone out on is having high expectations. But all these looney tunes on Genespage that worship Polk- you better damn well believe that I'll call them out.

What is sad about our situation is that we have a lot of fans- and I say this in as tactful a way as I can- that it would be better for us if they were not MSU fans and just left.
 

basedog

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May 29, 2008
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I don't always agree with you but that is the best way to describe our situation. I have been following Msu baseball closely since 1970, I have probably seen more baseball games a t the Dudy and around the SEC than most and we did not take advantage of a once weak SEC baseball league but instead we woke up a sleeping giant conference and we went to sleep behind the wheel.

I can tell you, we will never be the program we once were, oh we will win again but never be the "darling of the SEC" in baseball. Between LT and Polk they help put Msu baseball one foot in the grave! Cohen has the toughest job in the SEC right now, he is starting over trying to rebuild a once proud baseball tradition and he's got a "pack of wolves" snapping at him from all sides because we aren't winning. And I'll keep saying the reason for this is like 34 stated, other schools starting caring about baseball, and Polk let his lazy *** ego get in the way and just quit doing what needed to be done, build on success!

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Brahmabull

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Sep 18, 2008
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I am just curious. I guess b/c I have a hard time understanding how a MSU fan can be more a fan of Polk rather than MSU??? Who are these people?? Names???
 

War Machine Dawg

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Oct 14, 2007
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And allow me to be the Grammar Nazi for a moment. It's "cronies" not "croonies." Not directed at you specifically, but generally. That's been bothering me for months.

/OCD about "cronies"
 

Todd4State

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Mar 3, 2008
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and sit in the grandstand. You'll know who they are when they ***** about Cohen yelling at a player.
 

brantleyjones

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Mar 3, 2008
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And then it was Ray Tanner, and David Wells, and Mike Bianco.

And it was pretty much a fluke. Bob Broadhead replaced Paul Dietzel as LSU's AD, and he brought in a bunch of Miami guys to run every aspect of LSU's athletic department. Bertman was one of them. LSU didn't give a **** about baseball. Broadhead just happened to hire the second best coach in NCAA baseball history from one of the better programs in the country, which happened to be in Miami. LSU ran Broadhead off after a couple of seasons, because he tried to take LSU's concessions from some politically connected LSU cronies (BTW, there is only one "o" in this word, you can look it up), and give it to more guys from Miami. Bertman stayed. The rest is history.

LSU's rise corresponds exactly with our decline. Prior to Bertman, LSU had won exactly one SEC championship, in 1975. They made their first CWS appearance in 1986, exactly one year after the best team in MSU history (and I believe that LSU won the SEC West in '85). Bertman was a pitching coach. Once he recruited the bats to go with his staff, it was no longer a contest. We won our last SEC championship in 1989, and LSU went on to win 5 CWS championships from 1991 to 2000. I also started following MSU baseball in 1970. I lived in Lafayette, LA from 1978 to 1995, and it got so bad that I just quit paying attention. I first saw Alex Box Stadium in 1979, and it was a pit, even compared to the old Dudy Noble field. It was still a pit in 1987, and 1991. LSU didn't care about baseball. Skip Bertman cared about baseball, and the corn dogs being the bunch of front runners that they are, they learned to like winning national championships.

Polk only had one team that came close to a CWS title, or even deserved one, and that was '85. He followed that success up with the class that became the '89 team, which might have won it all, if it had managed to get there (probably not, as good as that team was in the field, it was equally weak on the mound). Bertman just seemed to cruise, and Polk to give up, from there. (McMahon leaving obviously didn't help.) Bertman was just a better coach.

Due to Polk's and Bertman's success, the rest of the SEC did begin to care about baseball, and it became more competitive. It's still all Bertman. "The SEC is the best baseball conference in America." Outside of LSU, the SEC has won exactly one CWS, and outside of Skip Bertman, LSU has won exactly one CWS.

Polk did stay too long, but so did Gregory. Polk never understood pitching. It was a problem in '89. It was a huge problem for all of Polk II, and it all fell completely apart in '08.

So you can add Russ McNickle to Skip Bertman. Skip Bertman and Russ McNickle killed MSU baseball.