Question Regarding Those That Have No Faith in Stricklin Making A Big Hire..

[ArcherSPS]

Do you think that, guys listen, that Stricklin was only able to hire Ray and not someone more nationally known because of the toxic situation that potential candidates saw when asked if they were interested? Note this happened all in the same year..
http://content.usatoday.com/communi...i-state-basketball-twitter-ban/1#.UxU6NvSwJiU
http://content.usatoday.com/communi...ssissippi-state-rick-stansbury/1#.UxU6bPSwJiU
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/spor...ardo-sidney-mississippi-state-suspended_N.htm
http://content.usatoday.com/communi...hman-in-wake-of-profane-tweets/1#.UxU6ofSwJiU

 

[Philly Dawg]

What did Stricklin do, attempt to get the new coach to keep Sidney or bring back DJ Gardner and had to settle for Ray when nobody would do it? Otherwise, I don't see what this has to do with anything since those players were gone.

 

[ArcherSPS]

culture of the program..If you were an up and comer coach would you want to touch that program at all? I know I wouldn't

 

[00Dawg]

Given how badly he handled trying to get Prohm, I'm inclined to say he just bungled the whole thing, and that the player culture was a minimal factor.

 

[Shmuley]

He should not be allowed to solo another big 3 search. Period.

 

[engie]

the player culture was a minimal factor.

It was alot more than a minimal factor.

That's why we were getting bites on the front end, but as guys did their due diligence, they were bowing out left and right.

 

[Philly Dawg]

I think this is post hoc rationalizing. No coach expects to come into an ideal situation when the prior coach was fired. There were other coaches available to MSU.

 

[coach66]

I agree, training wheels still on.

Nm

 

[DerHntr]

I think this is post hoc rationalizing. No coach expects to come into an ideal situation when the prior coach was fired. There were other coaches available to MSU.

Disagree.

1. Having to follow one of our best producing coaches

2. Heavily divided fan base on the decision to fire him

3. Less division by boosters but they were more in favor of keeping old coach (at least that is what everyone says and the internet is always right)

4. Massive team culture problems

5. Deteriorating reputation nationally because of the team culture

#4 and #5 absolutely had an effect. Maybe they weren't the most important reasons but they could easily be the deciding factor if on the fence about considering the job.

 

[Philly Dawg]

What evidence is there that any coach turned down the job on this basis? It sounds like speculation to me, which is why I called it post hoc rationalizing.

 

[engie]

What evidence is there that any coach turned down the job on this basis? It sounds like speculation to me, which is why I called it post hoc rationalizing.

Is there any proof that they didn't?

Is it more likely that they turned it down for that reason -- or simply because "Stricklin is a bumbling idiot"?
Everything said on this topic is technically speculation -- but the prior seemingly has a greater likelihood of truth -- especially when added to the context that Stricklin made tough decisions with softball and women's basketball before making what was considered lights-out homerun hires on the front end in those sports. So, what was so different about our men's basketball search that caused it to be a total cluster?

 

[DerHntr]

What evidence is there that any coach turned down the job on this basis? It sounds like speculation to me, which is why I called it post hoc rationalizing.

And as I said to you previously, I constantly said we'd have trouble hiring prior to it happening. This is not post hoc.

Plus, if none of what I said mattered then that means Strick basically screwed the entire thing up. I don't believe it was a one or the other type thing. It was a combination.

 

[PBRME]

Don't forget the rumor that Jimmy Sexton blackballed us.

 

[121Josey]

Disagree.

1. Having to follow one of our best producing coaches

2. Heavily divided fan base on the decision to fire him

3. Less division by boosters but they were more in favor of keeping old coach (at least that is what everyone says and the internet is always right)

4. Massive team culture problems

5. Deteriorating reputation nationally because of the team culture

#4 and #5 absolutely had an effect. Maybe they weren't the most important reasons but they could easily be the deciding factor if on the fence about considering the job.

6. The cupboard was bare.

#4 and #5 were evident at TSUN for football. They at least went out and hired someone who had a record of of turning around a programs. Strickland hired someone who had no coaching pedigree (although he was a fast mover up the chain) and no previous head coaching experience. Must have one of the two.

 

[121Josey]

And as I said to you previously, I constantly said we'd have trouble hiring prior to it happening. This is not post hoc.

Plus, if none of what I said mattered then that means Strick basically screwed the entire thing up. I don't believe it was a one or the other type thing. It was a combination.

A post hoc reaction by the fan base of WTF is a good gauge concerning Strick. Ray had very little goodwill heading in, so it was imperative that he gain immediate credibility. Fans were already calling this a poor hire on Day 1 and every game reinforces that to them.

 

[Uncle Ruckus]

What evidence is there that multiple people turned us down besides Internet rumors. I'm not saying that we weren't turned down, just stating that there's no factual evidence that anyone did, and there's no factual evidence about anything that happened other than what stricklinnz has said about it.

 

[thekimmer]

Anytime you have a forced coaching change things are not ideal.....

Do you think that, guys listen, that Stricklin was only able to hire Ray and not someone more nationally known because of the toxic situation that potential candidates saw when asked if they were interested? Note this happened all in the same year..

If the toxic situation you describe is primarily due to the outgoing coaching staff then that pretty much goes away when the candidate takes the job. Sure he might need to deal with some residual results but the culture is now his. Because of that I do not see the culture being an issue. On the upside, the new coach is coming to a program in a major conference, to a program with pretty good fan support and a decent history.

To me RR was really thrown to the wolves. Replacing a controversial, but still somewhat popular and successful man with a rookie HC who obviously needed some time to learn on-the-job was not a good idea AT ALL.

 

[johnson86-1]

What evidence is there that multiple people turned us down besides Internet rumors. I'm not saying that we weren't turned down, just stating that there's no factual evidence that anyone did, and there's no factual evidence about anything that happened other than what stricklinz has said about it.

I think the evidence is that we hired an assistant from a relatively mediocre team. Do you really believe Stricklin didn't shake the bushes but instead immediately went for an obscure assistant? We may not have technically offered to anybody, but lots of agents gave us a 'not interested' on behalf of their clients.

I can't imagine the state of the team didn't have a large effect, but I also think that hiring basketball coaches has changed in the last 5 to 10 years. It's become clear that being at a big name school is not the path to success the same way it is in football. I think proven coaches are going to be more hesitant to jump from smaller schools because smaller schools still pay well and it's been repeatedly proven that it's not so easy to recreate a team at a larger school. Add to the fact that you'd be trying to do it with a dumpster fire significantly worse than the normal bad situation that exists when a coach is fired, and you get a coaching hire that nobody has heard of.

 

[MedDawg]

It's simply not that easy to find a good coach. Who in the SEC in the past 10

years has hired a good coach? Pretty much all the coaches that posters here were raving about when we were talking about getting rid of Stansbury and after we did have turned out to suck or at best be mediocre.

One that comes to mind: "Oh no, South Carolina hired Frank Martin! He's great! Why can't we do that?" -- 4 SEC wins and a losing record each of the past 2 seasons.

"Anthony Grant is great! Bama went and stole a midmajor head coach, we should too!" -- 6-10, 12-17 so far in year 5.
"Mark Fox is a terrific coach, just you wait and see Georgia become really good!"
"Arkansas went out and got them a great coach (the last few UArk coaches)!"


Pretty much NONE of the coaches hired in the past 10 years, other than Calipari (and maybe Bruce Pearl, who isn't coaching anyone right now), have been any good. Doesn't matter if they were assistants at top programs or successful coaches at mid-majors or even big programs before they were hired. How many coaches have come and gone or are still in the SEC and not consistently made the NCAAs?


My main point is you can't really fault Stricklin for not finding a good basketball coach any more than you can fault 12 other SEC athletic directors. Don't talk like there's nothing to it and Stricklin should have easily been able to find a good coach.

 

[Philly Dawg]

In the absence of evidence, we apparently choose to believe what we want to believe, which is why I called this post hoc rationalizing. "The prior seemingly has a greater liklihood of truth" is quite possibly the mose equivocal statement I've ever seen. I don't know what happened so I'm not going to speculate.

All we know is that we failed to hire any of the coaches identified by our search consultants, which have been pre-screened to have interest in the job, and hired a complete unknown who was the third assistant on a mediocre team.

 

[engie]

All we know is that we failed to hire any of the coaches identified by our search consultants, which have been pre-screened to have interest in the job

Got a link to that? As well as a link saying Rick Ray wasn't on that list? Otherwise, that is speculation as well...

 

[tcdog70]

years has hired a good coach? Pretty much all the coaches that posters here were raving about when we were talking about getting rid of Stansbury and after we did have turned out to suck or at best be mediocre.

One that comes to mind: "Oh no, South Carolina hired Frank Martin! He's great! Why can't we do that?" -- 4 SEC wins and a losing record each of the past 2 seasons.

"Anthony Grant is great! Bama went and stole a midmajor head coach, we should too!" -- 6-10, 12-17 so far in year 5.
"Mark Fox is a terrific coach, just you wait and see Georgia become really good!"
"Arkansas went out and got them a great coach (the last few UArk coaches)!"


Pretty much NONE of the coaches hired in the past 10 years, other than Calipari (and maybe Bruce Pearl, who isn't coaching anyone right now), have been any good. Doesn't matter if they were assistants at top programs or successful coaches at mid-majors or even big programs before they were hired. How many coaches have come and gone or are still in the SEC and not consistently made the NCAAs?


My main point is you can't really fault Stricklin for not finding a good basketball coach any more than you can fault 12 other SEC athletic directors. Don't talk like there's nothing to it and Stricklin should have easily been able to find a good coach.

all the more reason for keeping a Coach that was beating the **** out of the above mentioned Coaches on a regular basis. twenty wins a year with All SeC players and being nationally Ranked is not that bad of a deal, whenyou considered Teams with more of everything than poor pititful MSU were suxing on a regular basis with their new Coaching Hires. Sidney was gone-Stansbury should have had another year .

 

[thatsbaseball]

I think Stricklin is a lightweight in the business at a time when we (or any SEC school) need more than a marketing guy for an AD. He`ll f___ up most every thing he touches other than dressing the mannequin.

 

[Connor Mead]

Think the biggest mistake of the whole process is being overlooked. He gave a career assistant a proven head coaches salary, his negotiation skills are nonexistent. Should have taken the approach Ole Miss did with HF, small salary with benchmarks for bonus pay. He panicked and that will cost the university several million when we have to buy him out.

 

[00Dawg]

There are other possible issue that due diligence would've uncovered, including how we handled forcing Stansbury out, our new standards of success, etc. Without direct conversations about why certain candidates turned us down, you can't point to player culture as the main reason we wouldn't have been attractive. Most coaches would also know that's one facet of the program that is entirely within their control to change.

 

[thunderclap]

Exclamation.

.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

Again?

 

[NCDawg.sixpack]

I think Stricklin is a lightweight in the business at a time when we (or any SEC school) need more than a marketing guy for an AD. He`ll f___ up most every thing he touches other than dressing the mannequin.

I agree. If he wasn't Bailey Howell's son-in-law, he would have probably never been looked at for the job.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

Don't answer, just turn the question back.

And on and on and on and on...

Keep on with the Croach34 rationalization that supports getting rid of Stansbury, that ain't what this is about anymore. I truly think I could have found 3 high school coaches that would have us 227 in the RPI for a lot less 17ing money.

As your mentor said when he was hot on the fire Stansbury train, this ain't football. You don't have to get 80 players to restart a program and it doesn't take 2 years to do it.

Stansbury may have built a "dumpster fire" (the hyperbole of all time) but all Ray has done to this point is add gasoline to the fire. What hot shot kid is going to want to play for us now?

I've grown tired of even talking about this **** now, but to hear it over and over again that we should expect this crap from the people who were ready to can Muillens mid season is 17ing ridiculous. You should stop before you hit the bottom credibility level C34 has.

 

[Philly Dawg]

To clarify, Ray may have been identified by the search consultants, but was not on their initial lists and was first contacted shortly before being offered the job. You should be able to find a link to that, it was in the news when he was hired.

 

[esplanade91]

Stricklin gets credit for softball and women's basketball, I'm not trying to argue that fact, but who else was he suppose to hire? The two coaches who eventually took those jobs were candidates inside our conference who experts speculated were going to soon be head coaches somewhere and somewhat had ties to MSU, if you count being 45 minutes away a tie to MSU for Vann Stuedeman.

What I'm saying is I don't have faith in Stricklin to make a hire when there isn't a clear cut candidate to take over the job.

Him hiring Stuedeman or Schaefer would be like him hiring Phil, any other former assistant, or Payne, except none of them were as qualified as Vann or Vic. So instead of just hiring the best available he threw a Hail Mary. Whether that was the correct thing to do is a matter of opinion.

There were no and are no candidates for HC at MSU for basketball and I don't have faith in Scott to go out there and assess a coach for the job... Simply because I honestly don't think he knows what to look for, which is why I want our next AD to have a background in athletics... Not fundraising. But I truly believe he said "17 it this guy is doomed". Or at least that's what I'm hoping he did, because otherwise it's just not funny anymore. How else does MSU hire a bench coach from Clemson while SMU gets Larry Brown?

What I'm getting at is Scott won't get the slack to hire whoever he wants next year. We're going to make an Archie Manning committee-style hire, if not for the losing coach Scott reached on, definitely for $1m/yr salary he started Ray off with. For reference, Donnie Tyndall left his alma mater after taking them to the tournament to go to lowly ole USM... For $230,000/yr. Of all the things wrong with MSU's basketball program, Ray's salary is at the top of my list.

 

[engie]

To clarify, Ray may have been identified by the search consultants, but was not on their initial lists and was first contacted shortly before being offered the job. You should be able to find a link to that, it was in the news when he was hired.

How do you know he wasn't among the initial list contacted? I've seen nothing giving the initial date of contact between us and Ray's representatives. All we know are the names of the people that publicly "removed their name from consideration" in very embarrassing ways -- leading to the ideal of a botched search, which I agree with.

A botched search doesn't necessarily arrive at the incorrect conclusion though...

 

[engie]

Don't answer, just turn the question back.

And on and on and on and on...

Keep on with the Croach34 rationalization that supports getting rid of Stansbury, that ain't what this is about anymore. I truly think I could have found 3 high school coaches that would have us 227 in the RPI for a lot less 17ing money.

As your mentor said when he was hot on the fire Stansbury train, this ain't football. You don't have to get 80 players to restart a program and it doesn't take 2 years to do it.

Stansbury may have built a "dumpster fire" (the hyperbole of all time) but all Ray has done to this point is add gasoline to the fire. What hot shot kid is going to want to play for us now?

I've grown tired of even talking about this **** now, but to hear it over and over again that we should expect this crap from the people who were ready to can Muillens mid season is 17ing ridiculous. You should stop before you hit the bottom credibility level C34 has.

Yeah -- you added alot to the thread**

I'll be sure to add you to the raw *** list though. I'm sure coach appreciates your obsession over a year since he was permanently banned from this site though.

Oh -- and PLEASE throw me a link to me "wanting Mullen fired midseason"...If you can(you can't)... By all means, keep throwing **** against the wall though...

 

[Philly Dawg]

Here you go:

http://djournal.com/sports/stricklin-makes-first-high-profile-move/

We also forget that all of our candidates were ruled out and Stricklin had to publicly ask the fans for patience.

 

[msudawglb]

Ray is doing exactly what he was brought in to do. He is slowly uniting the fanbase.

Pretty soon everyone will want him fired for a new coach.

 

[thatsbaseball]

Eerie how similar it is to the Croom lost half decade.

 

[Arloguthrie]

Oh -- and PLEASE throw me a link to me "wanting Mullen fired midseason"...If you can(you can't)... By all means, keep throwing **** against the wall though...

You misquoted him, but here's one:

I'm still calling for [Mullen's] head either way.

i.e. regardless of whether Hud was available.

I, for one, would like to strike while the iron is hot for once -- and tee up our next coach to be successful. Instead of allowing it to crash and burn to the point that he's undergoing a FULL rebuild from the depths of hell. In the last decade, we've only successfully done this once(Croom to Mullen). We allowed EVERY other sport and coaching change to be put on virtual life support before making a move.

10/25/13

http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/showthread.php?116478-If-Hud-didn-t-exist

 

[KurtRambis4]

Come on, that wasn't him**

*

 

[engie]

You misquoted him, but here's one:

i.e. regardless of whether Hud was available.



10/25/13

http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/showthread.php?116478-If-Hud-didn-t-exist

And where in that post did I ever say that I wanted to fire Mullen midseason?

There are literally tens of posts by me that spelled out my entire position in detail -- which always involved the pretense of missing bowl eligibility at the end of the year and was clearly stated as such. But you already know that because you had to dig through a half dozen of them to find one you could attempt to take out of context.

Nice try. Still an obsessed failure. And once again -- adding a ton to the thread. Good job with that. What percentage of your overall posts here involve me now? No obsession whatsoever**

 

[engie]

Here you go:

http://djournal.com/sports/stricklin-makes-first-high-profile-move/

We also forget that all of our candidates were ruled out and Stricklin had to publicly ask the fans for patience.

That link says that Ray was the only person ever actually offered the MSU job. In that manner, that makes him Stricklin's "first choice" about as much as Freeze as OM's "first choice" does it not(http://www.katc.com/news/report-hudspeth-pulls-name-from-ole-miss-consideration/)?

It does say that he was first contacted about 10 days into the coaching search -- so it seems obvious that he wasn't one of the guys on the first list we looked at(you are right on that). Seems we got alot of quick no answers from that first list -- and judging by what we were left with entering the 2013 season, who can really blame them?

I keep going back to if thing would have been different had the move been made a year earlier -- where a new coach inherits what I think was upperclassman Sweet 16 talent vs the move being made when it was when the cupboard was basically totally bare.