Ref Question
- Thread starter Brin22
- Start date
Two player 20 yards a part running full spead colliding helmet to helmet isnt dangerous. Just would rather see a player with a spained knee then their bell rung.
Terminology: that's not a chop block. A chop block is a high-low combination block. What you're describing is an illegal block below the waist.
Ball was out of the free blocking zone, or the player blocked wasn't in the zone at the snap, or the player blocking wasn't in the zone at the snap.
Wow - I see that a lot from the smaller LBer's and DB's and it is not called.
They take out the blocker going low below the waist and try and get both of them on the ground to trip up the RB and hope his Def buddies come to clean up.
They take out the blocker going low below the waist and try and get both of them on the ground to trip up the RB and hope his Def buddies come to clean up.
I have a ref question. Let's see how this gets answered.
Forget the down, doesn't matter.
Qb snaps the ball, both lines collide, and are fighting for control. Offensive guard pushes the defensive tackles helmet off of the d-lineman, assumably from the bottom of the mask. At the same time, the rb makes a beeline towards these two. The d-lineman moves past the o-lineman, and makes the tackle, helmetless.
All this directly in front of an official.
What's the call?
Forget the down, doesn't matter.
Qb snaps the ball, both lines collide, and are fighting for control. Offensive guard pushes the defensive tackles helmet off of the d-lineman, assumably from the bottom of the mask. At the same time, the rb makes a beeline towards these two. The d-lineman moves past the o-lineman, and makes the tackle, helmetless.
All this directly in front of an official.
What's the call?
If it's first and 10, you can't be inside their 10. First down inside their 10 is first and goal.
Ok I actually meant the 2nd penalty inside the 10. Say 1st and 10 on the 11. Offsides, now 1st and 5 from the 6. offsides. Now 1st and 3 from the 4.
This morning I was very confident in my answer, but the more I read it, the more I think it's one of our little quirks in the rules.
Ill give the non-refs some time here, but now it's going to eat at me.
Did you phrase the question correctly? Did you mean to say the penalties don't result in the chains being moved?
If it isn't first down, what down is it?
Illegal use of the hands on the Offense and nothing on the Defense as long as his participation is in the immediate area where his helmet came off. Other words he can't go 10 yards downfield and make a tackle. Penalty is 10 yards from the end of the run, if its behind the spot of the foul...and repeat the down. Defensive player doesn't have to sit for a play.
I disagree about the I.P. not being called based on what the post said. Offset the penalties, repeat the down, player doesn't have to come off.
Not sure why I originally didn't put the offensive penalty in.
Sort of.. lol we both agree with illegal use of the hands on the Offense if it was a blow to his face causing his helmet to come off should've been called.
We have different interpretations on Rule 9.6.4g. I personally think the defensive player was in the right to make the tackle if it was in the "immediate action" of his helmet coming off without being penalized.
Illegal participation 15 - I'm guessing thats what they got him for. If he ran after the runner and the tackle was a few yards away after his helmet came off.... then I say they got that call right.
Anytime you've got a live ball foul on both sides.. they offset and replay down. Hope that helps
We have different interpretations on Rule 9.6.4g. I personally think the defensive player was in the right to make the tackle if it was in the "immediate action" of his helmet coming off without being penalized.
Illegal participation 15 - I'm guessing thats what they got him for. If he ran after the runner and the tackle was a few yards away after his helmet came off.... then I say they got that call right.
Anytime you've got a live ball foul on both sides.. they offset and replay down. Hope that helps
I'm guessing the tape would make our interpretation the same. I'm just reading, "at the same time" not to mean he was right there, but instead he made a move towards them.
That being said if it was an immediate shed-tackle, I'm helping the player up myself and giving an extra :15 seconds to fix his helmet. That's a kid I'm not messing with.
That being said if it was an immediate shed-tackle, I'm helping the player up myself and giving an extra :15 seconds to fix his helmet. That's a kid I'm not messing with.
Ya know... after watching the video. I don't think there should be any penalty called on the play after reading the responses from actual officials. Why? I didn't see the offensive lineman engage the defensive player's helmet, causing it to come off. I think it just came off because it was too loose. Wouldn't be surprised if this player's helmet has come off in a prior game. I also believe the defensive player had a right to make the tackle since the play was in his immediate vicinity (as linetogain stated "immediate area"). If he had run several yards without his helmet, that would warrant the flag. He did not remove his helmet voluntarily. Since this is high school football, I could see an official having a brief talk/warning with the defensive player about the danger of continuing play without the proper protective equipment, though. Officials didn't have the luxury of video replay, so they were at a disadvantage. They do their best.
I agree with you on a lot of what you said. Should have definitely been no penalty.
Boy in question is obviously mine, first time his helmet has come off since we switched to Xenith, right around 6-7 years now.
I could have seen a warning to both players, along the lines of "Hey, helmets don't come off on their own, watch your hand placement"
And " hey, it isn't safe to make a tackle with no helmet, use your brain. Make sure your helmet stays on your head"
But a 15 yard unsportsmanlike was a bit harsh.
It's water under the bridge now, but I had been curious for quite some time about what the actual call was/should have been.
Thanks everyone!!
Just to be clear if the foul that was given was "Unsportsmanlke conduct" thats wrong.
2 reasons:
1. Unsportsmanlike Conduct is always a non contact foul like swearing, taunting, excessive celebration bring attention to themselves, coach or non player being on the field during live ball ect...
2. 2 unsportsmanlike conducts and the said player or coach are ejected and can not play the rest of the game or the next week.
If this was indeed ruled a foul by the officials interpretation of Rule 9.6.4g "continues to participate beyond the immediate action that he is engaged in" then the correct call is Illegal Participation 15 yards. A player can have unlimited IPs in a game and not get ejected. As stated before its my understanding if he engages in action immediately after the helmet comes off (rather than 5 yards down field) then its a no call. So, helmet comes off and he immediately engages in a tackle... no call or helmet comes off and he runs 5+ yards and makes a tackle.. Illegal Participation
Hope this helps
As far as the helmet coming off "because its too loose" I can see the logic in that if the player is going to the ground or taken to the ground but in this particular play the player is upright and it would seem odd that a helmet would fly off a players head without some sort of force. After watching it several times.. it looks like maybe an elbow from the opponent. Maybe unintentional...Video from the booth is always more difficult to see. : )
In NFHS football the only time anyone O or D can "go low" is:
1. To tackle the runner
2. Someone pretending to be the runner
3. Player in the free blocking zone immediately at the snap
Otherwise its a Block below the waist and 10 yards
Hope this helps