Right to work.....finally

[crazyqx83_rivals88013]

RTW is being voted in and the only people pissed are stupid union idiots.

So yea I'm curious how one is in place vs the other and why? I assumed along time ago a bunch of pussies not smart enough to get their value in pay from employers were happy the mafia was ready to take a cut of their pay to protect them.

Somewhere along the lines I assume people smartened up and a policy had to be formed and it was labeled RTW.

Wrong or right, in general?

I'd recommend you watch a movie/documentary called "Harlan County USA." As recently as the 1970s, big corporations would bring in thugs to basically threaten to kill striking union workers.

At the early partnof the 20th century, large companies would come into areas and basically sever all forms of industry other than what they wanted to exploit. In mining, they would depress the economy to the point where there were no other jobs, and the not even pay you in cash. They would pay you in scrip where you basically had no choice but to spend your earnings back to those large corporations. So forgive me if I don't give a rat's **** if those people organized and even used mob/mafia and violent techniques to fight back against indentured servitude. Was there corruption in unions? Sure. Leadership even killed each other to maintain power. Kinda like politicians used to do.

You need to really ******* brush up on the history of who started firing shots first between management and labor. It's one of the dumber takes on this board to assert that unions were formed because "a bunch of pussies not smart enough to get their value in pay from employers were happy the mafia was ready to take a cut of their pay to protect them."

As for wheter RTW would exist without unions. I mean... Usually I wouldn't even respond to such ignorance, but I'm really wanting to put you completely in your place today so... Yes... A law restricting businesses from entering into a CBA with a union would totally exist if unions didn't exist. Sarcasm off.

But seriously. Go watch Harlan County and do some research on Taft-Hartley Act before you even attempt to have rudimentary level conversations about labor relations.

 

[BernieSadori]

Pretty sure nobody is arguing to let govt run our businesses.

We we are saying is it should be the business owner to decide how to run his/her business. Which is exactly what this legislation does.

 

[krazykats]

Right ok, so basically while it could exist it is virtually in place because companies are held hostage, today, by the employees forcing the companies new hires into the union.

So basically once union is established it is in fact in control of that specific workforce.

So my point of RTW is the govt implementing freedom of choice or less control that is what I mean.

I kind of knew a little of that, although you are absolutely correct I probably do need to brush up but I'm anti union and would never work in one so why should I really? However I was forced to play dumb enough for you to walk me into confirming my take was essentially right even if poorly worded.

Glad we agree now!

 

[Rex Kwon Do]

As recently as the 70's

[laughing]

 

[warrior-cat]

The union is not a business. Currently through its contract with the company, the union forces a new hire to join the union and to pay it dues.

The company certainly should be the one in the position to either agree and force its new hire (Ford hires...not the union) to join the union or to allow its employee the option to opt out. I am fine personally with the private company making that decision. Are you? If not you are just a hypocrite. You are fine if the force comes from the union. RTW simply allows Ford to make that call.

In the real world, if joining the union is a better option for the new hire...why would the new hire not want the better gig? It sounds like the union knows that freedom of choice is not better for their members.

Yes. This should not even be an argument. I can't understand how people in today's world could even believe unions are good for them.

 

[crazyqx83_rivals88013]

Pretty sure nobody is arguing to let govt run our businesses.

We we are saying is it should be the business owner to decide how to run his/her business. Which is exactly what this legislation does.

Then go do your "business" without labor.

 

[Dr. H Lecter]

Some random thoughts....and I agree and disagree with several on both my lists so dont try to pin me down....just observing.

I suppose that the right to choose is good only for....
- a prego woman
- a man wishing to pee in ladies room.
- a man wishing to marry another man
- a muslim demanding a prayer room in a public school

but there is not a right to choose....
- if I want to join the union
- if I legally want to own a bazooka
- my doctor or my health plan
- if I must bake a gay wedding cake
- which public school to send my kid
- a jew or christian wanting a prayer room in a public school
- The name Stallions for a High School mascot because it is offensive

 

[Dr. H Lecter]

Then go do your "business" without labor.

You are dishonestly conflating laborers, labor and "the union." The union doesnt exist without laborers either.

 

[krazykats]

Ok 30 minutes into Harlan County USA......

Of course it has a union tilt to the video but in the coal mines I get it. Add to that it's about back in the day in a coal mine and for that industry with all the hazards I'm ok with the union in this case. But then.....

- they show a guy admitteding unions are a form of communism, I agree
- one of the leaders talks about striking because he don't care about the agreement, which kind of contradicts crazyqx stance on the agreements. I guess it is ok for employee to strike against their agreement but the employer should honor a bad agreement, right?
- a union movie based on coal mines only confirms my position on self value. I may be broke but union be damned I wouldn't work a coal mine for less than $100 an hour.....others may be different! My choice to not want that life and there is plenty of competition that I'm not forced into said conditions which means I still don't see a reason for unions since I place the value on me not a union or employer. If I take a bad/risky job then that's on me!

 

[BernieSadori]

Then go do your "business" without labor.

Ill use labor. Non union labor.

 

[UKRob 73]

Union's are against RTW because they know when given the choice, they can't stand on their own merit. They have to be shoved down workers throats.
They don't give two ***** about workers. Remember, just a few years ago they took away their right to vote via secret ballot. They make workers vote openly so they can intimidate them.
The only reason the union is still allowed to do all this unAmerican stuff is because they own one of the two main political parties.
Good riddance

 

[Bill Derington]

Rob, They are against RTW because it weakens their leverage in negotiations, that's it.
I've worked in a RTW state, in a plant with 350 plus people I knew one guy that opted out of the Union.
Why do you think the union doesn't care about the members?

You have a lot of preconceived notions that simply aren't true. Unions aren't perfect by any means, but they do benefit their members.

 

[Dr. H Lecter]

It looks like RTW and PW will be heading to the Gov's desk right away. Emergency Clauses.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/lrcpubs/ib117.pdf

Scroll down to page 20. Sec. 212 to see how that works. Basically this fast tracks the implementation of the laws.

 

[MegaBlue05]

HAY-ELLLL YEAH!!

$9.50 an hour factory jobs galore, baby!!!!

 

[UKRob 73]

Bill, why would union's take away workers rights to vote via secret ballot if they cared about workers. That's the most fundamental right in America.
They care about workers in the sense that they are their cash cow, outside of that they don't give two *****.

 

[Dr. H Lecter]

HAY-ELLLL YEAH!!

$9.50 an hour factory jobs galore, baby!!!!

If that is what it takes for a factory to locate in KY and a willing worker and a willing employer are all happy...then so what? No one will be forcing anyone to take that job.

Now in the real world....they pay more than $9.50/hr at the factory known as McDonald's. Are you being a bit drama queenish?

 

[Dr. H Lecter]

Bill, why would union's take away workers rights to vote via secret ballot if they cared about workers. That's the most fundamental right in America.
They care about workers in the sense that they are their cash cow, outside of that they don't give two *****.

A right to a secret ballot is only good for Americans. A non-secret ballot is how they did it in the old USSR and in Cuba...and amazingly Castro and Brezhnev got 99% of the votes. That was only because Castro and Brezhnev knew what was best for the workers. Strange how that work.

 

[Bill Derington]

Bill, why would union's take away workers rights to vote via secret ballot if they cared about workers. That's the most fundamental right in America.
They care about workers in the sense that they are their cash cow, outside of that they don't give two *****.

Well, I can tell you someone in the union gave 2 ***** about this member when I got in a bind and would've had no ***** if I were fired.

The people for the union also have to vote in the open too, correct? Think there would be any chance they might face ramifications if it was voted down?

You're caught up in politics thinking every union guy is a democrat, that simply isn't true any longer. I would say it's 50/50 now a days.

 

[CrittendenWildcat]

Regardless of your opinion of unions, we are about to find out whether unions will survive in a union shop if it is voluntary to join and pay dues rather than mandatory.

How you feel about that chnage depends on your perspective about how level the playing field currently is between workers/unions and employers. Some of us believe RTW helps to level the playing field because the laws have favored workers/unions to the detriment of employers; others in this thread think RTW slants the field unfairly for employers.

 

[Bill Derington]

Regardless of your opinion of unions, we are about to find out whether unions will survive in a union shop if it is voluntary to join and pay dues rather than mandatory.

How you feel about that chnage depends on your perspective about how level the playing field currently is between workers/unions and employers. Some of us believe RTW helps to level the playing field because the laws have favored workers/unions to the detriment of employers; others in this thread think RTW slants the field unfairly for employers.

I think we need to go RTW, the state needs manufacturing jobs badly.
Some will eventually organize, some won't and that's fine too.
For me personally being in the union seems like a no brainer, but others rightfully so feel different.

 

[Dr. H Lecter]

Well, I can tell you someone in the union gave 2 ***** about this member when I got in a bind and would've had no ***** if I were fired.

The people for the union also have to vote in the open too, correct? Think there would be any chance they might face ramifications if it was voted down?

You're caught up in politics thinking every union guy is a democrat, that simply isn't true any longer. I would say it's 50/50 now a days.

And we saw evidence of that this year in PA, MI, WI, OH. The "blue wall" and the working man have been taken for granted by really both parties. Its a shame. I'd also say that 80/20 the normal union working man agrees with conservative views but are convinced by their union leaders that the GOP hates them. And certainly the GOP attitude has been...okay, you give all your donations to the Dems so the hell with you.

Hopefully both the GOP and the Union rank and file will realize that we largely share the SAME views and we can find more to agree on than to disagree on. Clearly the Dems use the Unions and then crap on them. Millions of low skilled workers coming here illegally is the best example of how both sides dont care...BUT we clearly see the change in that attitude from the GOP. Build that wall. Good for union jobs and wages.

 

[CrittendenWildcat]

HAY-ELLLL YEAH!!

$9.50 an hour factory jobs galore, baby!!!!

My girlfriend's son just graduated from high school and was immediately hired at $12.75/hr. He's probably up to $13.50 by now. Not because of unions, but because people who piss clean and can work are in high demand.

 

[Bill Derington]

And we saw evidence of that this year in PA, MI, WI, OH. The "blue wall" and the working man have been taken for granted by really both parties. Its a shame. I'd also say that 80/20 the normal union working man agrees with conservative views but are convinced by their union leaders that the GOP hates them. And certainly the GOP attitude has been...okay, you give all your donations to the Dems so the hell with you.

Hopefully both the GOP and the Union rank and file will realize that we largely share the SAME views and we can find more to agree on than to disagree on. Clearly the Dems use the Unions and then crap on them. Millions of low skilled workers coming here illegally is the best example of how both sides dont care...BUT we clearly see the change in that attitude from the GOP. Build that wall. Good for union jobs and wages.

You are exactly right, I've been preaching that for years.
I don't like the union leaders either, I haven't opened my monthly IBEW magazine in years.
However, they aren't the ones that actually deal with the workers, it's the local guys that do all the heavy lifting.

I think why most older guys vote straight Dem is because that's all they've ever known, people don't like to admit theyre wrong.

 

[Bill Derington]

My girlfriend's son just graduated from high school and was immediately hired at $12.75/hr. He's probably up to $13.50 by now. Not because of unions, but because people who piss clean and can work are in high demand.

There's a whole lot of truth in this post, especially the piss clean part.

 

[Dr. H Lecter]

There's a whole lot of truth in this post, especially the piss clean part.

Oh yea. Especially in the construction industry. Its more frequent on jobs that you must go through job site specific safety training and ALSO piss clean. You'd be amazed who comes back dirty.

 

[MegaBlue05]

If that is what it takes for a factory to locate in KY and a willing worker and a willing employer are all happy...then so what? No one will be forcing anyone to take that job.

Now in the real world....they pay more than $9.50/hr at the factory known as McDonald's. Are you being a bit drama queenish?

Nah.

I've just worked union and non. One is much better for the guys on the line. The other is better for the guys in the suits. Glean from that what you will.

 

[Free_Salato_Blue]

We should start charging the ones that hire illegals the deportation costs.

My girlfriend's son just graduated from high school and was immediately hired at $12.75/hr. He's probably up to $13.50 by now. Not because of unions, but because people who piss clean and can work are in high demand.

Full time or working for a temp agency?

 

[CrittendenWildcat]

Full time or working for a temp agency?

Full time, directly employed.

 

[Free_Salato_Blue]

Full time, directly employed.

Good for him then. Seen people strung out in an endless loop of working for a temp service instead of being hired on with benefits.

 

[oldsports_]

Of course RTW States have lower per capita income. Most RTW states are in the south, which has always had lower per capita income.

 

[CrittendenWildcat]

Good for him then. Seen people strung out in an endless loop of working for a temp service instead of being hired on with benefits.

I have a sister who can say, I kid you not, that she has held over 200 jobs in her lifetime. Still lives at home, has her GED. She will get a job, work for a couple of months, save a little, and then quit/get fired/get laid off (unemployment benefits!) and take a couple months off before going out (when the money runs out) and finding another position. Sometimes she goes through temp agencies, sometimes she is hired directly through an employer. She has the requisite two arms, two legs and a head, she doesn't do drugs, she has plenty of experience, so she gets hired again and again. And there is no shortage of warehouse jobs and factory jobs up here in Northern Kentucky, $12/hr. jobs are easy to find. She's happy, and she's not a mooch, she does contribute financially to our mother's household, so I can't really fault her.

And I really don't mean to put him down because he is a good kid, but my girlfriend's son who I mentioned above with the $13.50 job graduated from high school by the skin of his teeth, and there were times we did not think he would make it across the finish line and get his diploma.

I guess my point is, because of the area where I live, I cannot fathom the difficulties people have finding a job that pays a decent wage in other areas of the state.

 

[vhcat70]

HAY-ELLLL YEAH!!

$9.50 an hour factory jobs galore, baby!!!!

Yep. Better that they're on welfare.

 

[cardkilla_rivals379685]

Yep. Better that they're on welfare.

Yeah, because nobody who works has to get welfare. The gov't just subsidizes wages/benefits for companies like Walmart who pay their people as little as possible and tell them to go get food stamps.

Yet somehow Cosco manages to pay/treat their people well.

The anti-union conglomerate on here are ridiculous. Without unions or the threat of unions, you auto workers would be making $12/hr and liking it. It doesn't make sense in all work forces, but sometimes the only way to be treated like a human being is to unionize. You all act like business owners are this utopian group looking out for their workers.

 

[Dr. H Lecter]

Yeah, because nobody who works has to get welfare. The gov't just subsidizes wages/benefits for companies like Walmart who pay their people as little as possible and tell them to go get food stamps.

Yet somehow Cosco manages to pay/treat their people well.

The anti-union conglomerate on here are ridiculous. Without unions or the threat of unions, you auto workers would be making $12/hr and liking it. It doesn't make sense in all work forces, but sometimes the only way to be treated like a human being is to unionize. You all act like business owners are this utopian group looking out for their workers.

You really should do some research before looking silly on here. Toyota pays almost what Ford pays ($17 vs $18/hr)....and their non union workforce does not have to pay dues to the Union.

 

[theoledog]

I have worked in both environments.... While I fail to have seen much difference at the floor level perhaps someone else might, because of their experiences... It ain't that big a deal my opinion. If giving your money to the Union gives you comfort in protection/negotiation then give them your money... But far as I'm concerned the money that all Unions get/give is just a way to curry favor to a political party.... I'd like to think that union employees would see the irony in that but most don't.

 

[wildcat1973_rivals160373]

Without unions or the threat of unions, you auto workers would be making $12/hr and liking it.

No, b/c those workers would go find other jobs. All kinds of electrician, hvac, plumbing jobs paying $20+/hr right now. They can't hire enough people.

 

[JumperJack]

The anti-union conglomerate on here are ridiculous. Without unions or the threat of unions, you auto workers would be making $12/hr and liking it. It doesn't make sense in all work forces, but sometimes the only way to be treated like a human being is to unionize. You all act like business owners are this utopian group looking out for their workers.

What is an auto worker's skill set worth? That's the question.

 

[krazykats]

Yeah, because nobody who works has to get welfare. The gov't just subsidizes wages/benefits for companies like Walmart who pay their people as little as possible and tell them to go get food stamps.

Yet somehow Cosco manages to pay/treat their people well.

The anti-union conglomerate on here are ridiculous. Without unions or the threat of unions, you auto workers would be making $12/hr and liking it. It doesn't make sense in all work forces, but sometimes the only way to be treated like a human being is to unionize. You all act like business owners are this utopian group looking out for their workers.

From the few people I know at ford you start out as a temp at $12.50 and at that time not apart of the union. If you do good as a temp they take you on as full time union eligible at 6 months $15 an hour.

As you grow obviously pay is more but starting out is exactly where you seem to think the wage is a joke to work for........and it's a union, OMG!!!!

Which is exactly why Repubs laugh at democratic union pumping ignorance. Dems are bottoming out your countries wages with illegals and that doesn't help unions either!

At least this year they went Trump!

 

[warrior-cat]

From the few people I know at ford you start out as a temp at $12.50 and at that time not apart of the union. If you do good as a temp they take you on as full time union eligible at 6 months $15 an hour.

As you grow obviously pay is more but starting out is exactly where you seem to think the wage is a joke to work for........and it's a union, OMG!!!!

Which is exactly why Repubs laugh at democratic union pumping ignorance. Dems are bottoming out your countries wages with illegals and that doesn't help unions either!

At least this year they went Trump!

Yeah, and how much are the dues and then how much do you take home. The company my wife works for starts the lowest out at about $10.00 an hour. That is the janitorial workers, all others make better depending on what their skill set is. She makes around $22.00 an hour as a QC. Oh, and by the way, no union. Imagine that.

 

[krazykats]

I don't work at ford but I think I was told dues were $2 an hour of pay.

Where I work, non union, you start at $9.42 an hour but guaranteed 10 hours OT a week. There is also the possibility of getting bonuses up to $1200 a month. Typically those guys hit for about $400 of that bonus.